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Alakazam
07-26-2005, 12:15 AM
I was doing some reading eariler, and I found something rather interesting/disturbing/intruiging.

Most of us probably know that another name for Satan is "Lucifer", which is a Latin term that translates to "bringer/bearer of light, the morning star"

But, take a look at the following verse from the Bible:

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." Revelation 22:16

...am I wrong in interpretring this as Jesus himself proclaiming to be Lucifer?

Anyway, the term "Lucifer" was definately added afterwards, since the Bible was originaly written in Hebrew, before Latin ever existed. I just thought I'd throw that out there as an interesting topic.

liquid crystal
07-26-2005, 12:52 AM
Hate to go back to my Catholic School days (>.>") but wasn't Satan s'posed to be a fallen angel? So wouldn't it be sorta intrinsic for an angel to have such a name? I dunno...

Anywho, isn't the Book of Revelations just written as propaganda against Caesar? A code for devout believers to keep their faith and not to worship him as a god on earth? I saw a history channel program on it once ^>^"

Neo Emolga
07-26-2005, 02:03 AM
Obviously, you're right about it being written before the time that Latin existed. And the Latin meaning may be the literal meaning of "Morning star," while the quote of Jesus may be more in a metaphorical sense.

And yes, to those who donít know, Lucifer is another name for Satan. However, Satan was once under God, but he rebelled against Him, along with many other angels. There was a time when he was good. Still though, I donít know all the details, and using only what Iíve read from Billy Graham is being a little biased when making a conclusive statement about that whole issue.

The Elite Ygseto
07-26-2005, 03:19 AM
Yeah, I agree with Juno. That was used in a diffrent way.

There are also other names for Satan. I personally like Dis. Its from Dante's Inferno.

sPiKe
07-27-2005, 03:53 AM
"Morning Star" is another term for sunrise. We vampires are quite familiar with the concept. I'm sure Jesus was referring to himself as a new dawn or something. Any similarities have got to be coincidental. As you mentioned, translation and derivitives of different languages are a crazy gig.

Good topic.

Visual
07-27-2005, 05:09 PM
I doubt that is its literal meaning.

Of course, it is related to your hypothesis, I think. Lucifer and Jesual were the two spiritual entities that God considered to be made into The Son, so Lucifer's name meaning "bearer of light" and Jesual proclaiming himself the Morning Star gives a hint to their very close relation. And would you ever guess this? Their relation is VERY close, because Jesual and Lucifer were brothers.

For those of you theologically ignorant, Jesual = Jesus.

Also note that the name Lucifer is not used in the New Testament as bearer of light, because that title is given to Jesus, since God made his decision for him to be the bearer of light instead of Lucifer.

Lucifer got pretty pissed and gave birth to both Sin and Death.

There is also evidence in Collin de Plancy that says that Lucifer is actually not Satan, but above him.

"Lucifuge" also means "he who shuns the light", just to add in some more confusion for you.

I'm a bit tired right now. :tongue:

sPiKe
07-29-2005, 03:12 AM
I doubt that is its literal meaning.

Of course, it is related to your hypothesis, I think. Lucifer and Jesual were the two spiritual entities that God considered to be made into The Son, so Lucifer's name meaning "bearer of light" and Jesual proclaiming himself the Morning Star gives a hint to their very close relation. And would you ever guess this? Their relation is VERY close, because Jesual and Lucifer were brothers.

For those of you theologically ignorant, Jesual = Jesus.

Also note that the name Lucifer is not used in the New Testament as bearer of light, because that title is given to Jesus, since God made his decision for him to be the bearer of light instead of Lucifer.

Lucifer got pretty pissed and gave birth to both Sin and Death.

There is also evidence in Collin de Plancy that says that Lucifer is actually not Satan, but above him.

"Lucifuge" also means "he who shuns the light", just to add in some more confusion for you.

I'm a bit tired right now. :tongue:

Here's a quote for you:

"The Bible-- Old Testament/New is nothing but BS fables passed down by funatics who are dying to get into HEAVEN.

Jesus wanted nothing more than for others to follow and show some sodding respect for the rest of you/us fellow humans. How hard is it to apply it to your daily lives?? Have fun in HELL...

Stupid humans.

End of topic.

The Elite Ygseto
07-29-2005, 03:34 AM
Its is true that the bible has stories in it that are there to help guide us. I've never read a bible, and don't really want to. To get to heaven you have to confess that Jeasus is your saviour, and he will bring to Heaven with him with the rapture or when you die. I'm no where near reglious, but I atleast know that. So stop tellign people they will go to hell.

sPiKe
07-29-2005, 03:37 AM
Its is true that the bible has stories in it that are there to help guide us. I've never read a bible, and don't really want to. To get to heaven you have to confess that Jeasus is your saviour, and he will bring to Heaven with him with the rapture or when you die. I'm no where near reglious, but I atleast know that. So stop tellign people they will go to hell.


You talking to me?

Visual
07-29-2005, 05:28 PM
Here's a quote for you:

"The Bible-- Old Testament/New is nothing but BS fables passed down by funatics who are dying to get into HEAVEN.

Jesus wanted nothing more than for others to follow and show some sodding respect for the rest of you/us fellow humans. How hard is it to apply it to your daily lives?? Have fun in HELL...

Stupid humans.

End of topic.

I don't know why you quoted me in saying that, but know these two things:

1) I am Agnostic. As in, I don't believe in all of that.

2) I was giving out facts from the mythology. Once again, I NEVER said I believed that.

Kthxbye.

Not Treecko
07-30-2005, 02:09 AM
"Morning Star" is another term for sunrise. We vampires are quite familiar with the concept. I'm sure Jesus was referring to himself as a new dawn or something. Any similarities have got to be coincidental. As you mentioned, translation and derivitives of different languages are a crazy gig.

Good topic.


Actually, quite the contrary to coincidental, my dear friend. The devil, aka Lucifer, tries to decieve us by portraying himself as an angel of light. He wishes to portray himself as God, because he wishes to be God. When most people think of the devil, they think "oh yes, horns, spikey tail, the whole demon gig", but it's actually quite the opposite. He portrays himself as a pure entity, an angel of light, the morning star; deceiving all around him, and tempting others into sin, because he is in reality an angel cast out from Heaven along with his followers, and wants as many within his grasp before the inevitable end of time comes and he's cast into the lake of fire (this is, of course, after the whole anti-christ thing happens, and after many other tortures he puts the world through are over with, I'm just skipping to the end of it for this post's sake) with all of his followers. It is a pity how many people won't just pick up a Bible and understand.... Hell wasn't created for God's creation, it was created for Lucifer and his demons to endure alone, but unfortunately all who disobey God and choose a life of sin will end there as well.... :ermm:

But enough of my preaching, I'm straying from the original topic, which I already covered above. Jesus is NOT Lucifer.

22sa
07-30-2005, 07:35 PM
I just know Lucifer/anti-christ is suppose to be of perfect beauty and will make rapid success.

Alakazam
07-30-2005, 11:28 PM
. Jesus is NOT Lucifer.

Let it be known that I never actually suggested/thought/believed that Jesus is Lucifer (what an absurd thought), but rather I thought such a title would best draw people into this discussion. I'm merely kickstarting a discussion stemming from linguistics.


Anyway, Satan using a guise of light around him makes perfect sense, although the fact that the term "Lucifer" didn't exist in the original scripture does lessen its crediblity in the realm of theology....or, at least, it seems so to me.

(then again, the whole concept of the devil wasn't around at the times of the early Christian church....but that could even lead us into another discussion altogether :P )

sPiKe
07-31-2005, 12:55 AM
All I meant, you silly bint, was that too often I see people putting too much effort into understanding the Bible and trying to look beyond it's messages. A bloke spends his whole life doing that and he misses the big picture. He wastes his life trying to read into something that's already there. I'm EVIL and i get the message of Christ loud and clear. Why can't humans?

PokemonHater235212434421
08-09-2005, 12:58 AM
Jesus could be Lucifer, but not at all likely. Even IF the bible makes a reference to it, your translation of this line was probarbly an unintended misunderstanding on your part. But I'm not saying Jesus isn't satan, I'm just saying it is unlikly and if this was belived to be true it would be common knowledge to everyone that Jesus might be satan.

Lord Deoxys
08-19-2005, 05:48 PM
Look Lucifer is not Satan. Let me explain. In the Bible it says that Lucifer fell from Heaven, but it never says it is Satan. Matter of fact if you read to whole chapter then it will become clear that it is talking about the king of Babylon. Now how can a king fall from Heaven? Well it is using metaphor to describe that the king is at a high power (or stance) and he will fall from there. At least that is what I think.

Loyal Arcanine
08-24-2005, 12:20 PM
Yes, Lucifer is Satan. I've read the posts on the previous page, and I'd like to say a few things. As said, Satan likes to be thought a Morning Star, since that's what he was. He was one of God's Angels, and not a plain one. He had a high position amongst those Angels. Jesus is the Morningstar, but couldn't such a high Angel have been named that too? Of course, he was only Lucifer as an Angel. That name does not belong to Satan after he fell out of heaven.

Incongruity
08-24-2005, 07:04 PM
Iirc, the entire idea of satan/lucifer/the devil is an enigma in and of itself.

#1: First of all, mistranslation of words such as "hell," "hole," and "bad place," leads to some quick troubles.

#2: Other than Revelations (I'll get to this later), there is not a direct reference to the Satan we know.

#3: In fact, in most of the books of the Old Testament, Satan is a prosecutor attempting to find faults in man, and "trying" them for their sins. Satan, not Lucifer. In the Jewish versions, it is in fact translated as "Adversary."

#4: Much of the Satan we know is from massive interpretation. For a good example of this, read Paradise Lost. While entertaining, it is indeed fiction.

#5: One of the more famous "direct" references to "Satan" is in the book of Matthew. For most of the passage, it is "the tempter," and once or twice, it is "the devil." Now, this seems to confirm the existence of a devil, but then, the clear problems in this emerge. First of all, we return to the original translation of Satan: Adversary. And we realize there may be other meanings for devil too. Let's see my interpretation of this passage. (and yes, if Christians can interpret words beyond their original meaning, I can atleast interpret it with little modification of my own)

Then the evil one taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

And saith unto him, Since thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

...

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, adversary: for it is written...


Makes sense, no? Oh, and by the way, this is assuming ANYTHING in the bible is correct. If, for one second, you can come out of your shells and assume that the Bible is not correct, you can see even more clearly. This entire passage could very well be a plot by the conspirators who wrote the Bible to convince the proletariat of two things:

-If you doubt the power of Jesus, you're with the devil
-Before Jesus came, the devil dominated the world (All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me)


Now, come out of your shells a little further, and comprehend the idea for a second that the Jews might be right. Then, the role of Satan as an accuser comes into play. He may very well have been sent down to test Jesus, just as he tests men. But unlike ordinary men, Jesus passes.


#6: And then, we get to Revelations. Yes, that book. That book which has so much controversy surrounding it. First of all, there's still controversy over who wrote it.

In fact, there's been controversy for a long time. In an unprecedented maneuver, a council of figures unrelated to Jesus modified the Bible for fear of abuse rather than to expedite abuse. This was in the 4th century. Because of the difficulty of interpreting it, they thought they should leave it out; it would have joined the countless other books that church members disagreed with and took out. Clearly, it's still in there, and it's still being abused.

Also, notice this. Look at when Revelations was written. Around 68 AD. Hmmmm. What else was going on in 68 AD.... Oh! Yes, of course! Nero! Find any interesting parallels between Nero and Revelations? Hmmmm :rolleyes:


And the fishiest part of all is obviously how there's Revelations, and hardly any confirmation of it in the other books. So how can we even think there is a Satan as we know it? A prosecutor, an adversary, maybe, but the root of all evil designed to excuse God's faults? nah.

Lord Deoxys
08-24-2005, 08:45 PM
Thank you. At least there is some people that actually look into things instead of following traditional beliefs.

Hypocrisy is Fun
08-26-2005, 06:09 AM
I go to a Catholic shcool and i have been taut from a preist himself that Lucifer is Satan. When Jesus said he was the morning star, it was a metaphore for light. Jesus is the "Light" of the world as he said in the Bible, not saying he is the literal "Morning Star."

2wings
10-09-2005, 09:38 AM
That's wierd...... how can satan be Lucifer? ( more like Defiller :neutral: ) Maybe it meant the high priest falls from heaven......

Dakota
10-10-2005, 07:37 PM
...am I wrong in interpretring this as Jesus himself proclaiming to be Lucifer?

Yes


well, hey, that was a fast debate. Cya guys later

lalala
11-01-2005, 01:10 AM
Thank you. At least there is some people that actually look into things instead of following traditional beliefs.

Right on. I belive that demons aren't all evil, they can be good or evil like humans. And demons are sexy... :eek: .

You said it Lord Deroxys!

Nasty Plasty
11-01-2005, 02:34 AM
Well, Lucifer is a fallen angel right? He wanted to be better than god. It`s seems like he would want to call himself the morning star. But, Latin is after Christ.

lalala
11-03-2005, 01:32 AM
Everyone wants to be better than god, especially egomaniacs like Lalala. In Lalala's opinion, sons naturally want to be better than there dad so if jesus wants to be better the god, and jesus is satan, then Lalala thinks its a little father son jealousy!

Hypocrisy is Fun
11-11-2005, 04:15 PM
I hate to sound like a nun but this is just plain stupid at this point. You guys have taken this way out of content, I mean come on! He died on the cross for us! Would Satan do that I ask? No he would not.

Dakota
11-13-2005, 05:14 PM
It's plain stupid to think that Satan is Jesus...there's no reasoning behind, tons of reasons against it...people just want to stir up trouble...