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IT
08-02-2005, 03:42 PM
Slowking@Chesto Berry
Trait: Own Tempo
Nature: Modest
EVs: 210 Def/ 150 Sp Att & Def
Moves:
-Calm Mind
-Surf
-Ice Beam
-Rest

Special wall and sweeperish.

Gengar@Salac Berry
Trait: Levitate
Nature: Naive
EVs: 252 Sp Att/ 252 Spd/ 6 HP
Moves:
-Destiny Bond
-T-Bolt
-Substitute
-Giga Drain

Needs moveset and EV help. I know 252 EV sets suck. My new starter.

Nidoking@Shell Bell
Trait: Poison Point
Nature:Brave
EVs: 225 Sp Att/ 177 Att/ 108 Def
Moves:
-Substitute
-Focus Punch
-Ice Beam
-T-Bolt

Skarmbliss and DDmence counter.

Miltank@Leftovers
Trait: Thick Fat
Nature: Impish
EVs: 252 Def/ 252 Sp Def/ 6 HP
Moves:
-Heal Bell
-Seismic Toss
-Milk Drink
-Counter

Physical wall and heal beller.

Donphan@Lum Berry
Trait: Sturdy
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 Att/ 130 Sp Def/ 64 HP & Def
Moves:
-Earthquake
-Rock Slide
-Roar
-Hidden Power(ghost)

P-Hazer and physical sweeper with help from Ninjask.

Ninjask@Liechi Berry
Trait: Speed Boost
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 Att/ 177 Spd/ 81 HP
Moves:
-Baton Pass
-Swords Dance
-Substitute
-Silver Wind

Baton passer. I'm debating between silver wind and aerial ace. Silwer wind kills Boahs but aerial ace has more PP.

Comments/concerns?

Regice 2005
08-02-2005, 04:17 PM
Kingdra@Chesto Berry
Trait: Swift Swim
Nature: Modest
EVs: Sp Att 156/ Sp Def 137/ Spd 96
Moves:
-Rain Dance
-Surf
-Ice Beam
-Rest

Good for a starter. Beats random PetayaJolteons, that's what the sp def is for.
More sp att might be nice but if you fear petayajolt that much go ahead and use the extra sp def.

Gengar@Salac Berry
Trait: Levitate
Nature: Modest
EVs: 252 Sp Att/ 252 Spd/ 6 HP
Moves:
-Destiny Bond
-T-Bolt
-Psychic
-Giga Drain

Needs moveset and EV help. I know 252 EV sets suck.
unless you really fear swampy put sub over giga drain to block thunder wave and to ease up predictions. If you're gonna go with sub than 252 works fine. Gengar isn't going to do much with extra def/sp def/HP

Nidoking@Shell Bell
Trait: Poison Point
Nature:Brave
EVs: Need help
Moves:
-Substitute
-Focus Punch
-Ice Beam
-T-Bolt

Skarmbliss and DDmence counter.
Sorry but I have never used this thing so I can't give exact ev's. I just suggest that you ditch its sp def and focus more on taking <25% from physical attacks.

Forretress@Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
Nature: Careful
EVs: 176 HP/ 137 Att/ 138 Def/ 59 Sp Def
Moves:
-Rest
-Spikes
-Rapid Spin
-Hidden Power(bug)

Spiker, rapid spinner, tank, physical wall.
earthquake might be better than hidden power bug to take care of magneton.
IK find forry tends to die quiet easily tahnks to it taking neutral damage from earthquake so you may concider explosion over rest.

Donphan@Lum Berry
Trait: Sturdy
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 Att/ 130 Sp Def/ 64 HP & Def
Moves:
-Earthquake
-Rock Slide
-Roar
-Hidden Power(ghost)

P-Hazer and physical sweeper with help from Ninjask.
would work very well if you can get those stats passed.

Ninjask@Liechi Berry
Trait: Speed Boost
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 Att/ 177 Spd/ 81 HP
Moves:
-Baton Pass
-Swords Dance
-Substitute
-Silver Wind

Baton passer. I'm debating between silver wind and aerial ace. Silwer wind kills Boahs but aerial ace has more PP.
silver wind... you won't be attacking much with this thing so pp is not a concern.


Comments/concerns?

nice team

Bravo Leader
08-03-2005, 01:09 AM
Well this team looks pretty good but I think it would do better with a special wall in it instead of Foretress and then you can make Donphan your tank/physical wall/rapid spinner, cause a good Alakazam will beat most of your team. But just a few suggestions I guess for what you have now.


Gengar @Leftovers
Mild
EVs 252 Speed/ 129 Sp Attack/ 129 Attack
Focus Punch
Thunderbolt
Ice Punch
Sludge Bomb

This is my favorite Gengar. Great SkarmBliss counter so you will not have to use Nidoking if you need something else and can take out a lot of stuff on its own...or you can use McIceGar

Other than your Gengar all I have to suggest is giving Foretress explosion over rest if you are gonna keep it in your team.

Iceman3k
08-03-2005, 01:29 AM
Kingdra@Chesto Berry
Trait: Swift Swim
Nature: Modest
EVs: Sp Att 156/ Sp Def 137/ Spd 96
Moves:
-Rain Dance
-Surf
-Ice Beam
-Rest

Good for a starter. Beats random PetayaJolteons, that's what the sp def is for.
* - ...eh? That don't look like all the EVs there. Anyway, you should try D-Dance Kingdra. It's somewhat effective with Dragon Dance, HP Fighting/Return, Ice Beam, and Surf. EV Set should be 40 HP, 75 Def, 75 Sp. Def, 252 Sp. Atk, and 68 Spd, with a Quiet Nature, so after 2 Dragon Dances, you can Outspeed anything except Electrode and Ninjask.

Gengar@Salac Berry
Trait: Levitate
Nature: Modest
EVs: 252 Sp Att/ 252 Spd/ 6 HP
Moves:
-Destiny Bond
-T-Bolt
-Substitute
-Giga Drain

Needs moveset and EV help. I know 252 EV sets suck.
* - That works, but just change the nature to Timid to outspeed anything under 349 Speed.

Nidoking@Shell Bell
Trait: Poison Point
Nature:Brave
EVs: Need help
Moves:
-Substitute
-Focus Punch
-Ice Beam
-T-Bolt

Skarmbliss and DDmence counter.
* - EV Set should be 252 HP and 129 in both Atk and Sp. Atk. I really don't know, because I never used BOAH-Styled Nidoking before.

Forretress@Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
Nature: Careful
EVs: 176 HP/ 137 Att/ 138 Def/ 59 Sp Def
Moves:
-Rest
-Spikes
-Rapid Spin
-Earthquake

Spiker, rapid spinner, tank, physical wall.
* - Standard, but Sp. Defense on it is useless unless you have Light Screen to back it up with.

Donphan@Lum Berry
Trait: Sturdy
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 Att/ 130 Sp Def/ 64 HP & Def
Moves:
-Earthquake
-Rock Slide
-Roar
-Hidden Power(ghost)

P-Hazer and physical sweeper with help from Ninjask.
* - Like Forret, Don's Sp. Def is also low and won't really last it against a good Water or Grass Attacker.

Ninjask@Liechi Berry
Trait: Speed Boost
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 Att/ 177 Spd/ 81 HP
Moves:
-Baton Pass
-Swords Dance
-Substitute
-Silver Wind

Baton passer. I'm debating between silver wind and aerial ace. Silwer wind kills Boahs but aerial ace has more PP.
* - HP Bug, I suppose? Has more power and PP.

Comments/concerns?
Just so you know, I'm not a big fan of Baton Pass. =(

Regice 2005
08-03-2005, 01:33 AM
Just a couple things I would like to say about Iceman3k's post:
1. DD kingdra doesn't work very well with only 1 physical attack.
2. He need a timid Gengar when he already has salac berry.

The rest is very good advise.

Iceman3k
08-03-2005, 01:40 AM
Just a couple things I would like to say about Iceman3k's post:
1. DD kingdra doesn't work very well with only 1 physical attack.
2. He need a timid Gengar when he already has salac berry.

The rest is very good advise.
Good points. But I'd just like to say that HP Fighting can be used to fend off Bliss and BOAHtar.

Regice 2005
08-03-2005, 01:59 AM
Good points. But I'd just like to say that HP Fighting can be used to fend off Bliss and BOAHtar.

boah is already beaten by a raindanced surf or at least severely damaged. My comp freezes each time I try to use a damage calc so I wouldn't know for sure but I'm relatively certain that boah will die.

As for blissey it probably isn't worth adding two moves on to kingdra just to beat the egg. kingdra needs the rain dance booste to surf to do what it does best. Maybe liechi berry+hp fighting over chesto rest though...

IT
08-03-2005, 09:42 AM
Well this team looks pretty good but I think it would do better with a special wall in it instead of Foretress and then you can make Donphan your tank/physical wall/rapid spinner, cause a good Alakazam will beat most of your team. But just a few suggestions I guess for what you have now.

Other than your Gengar all I have to suggest is giving Foretress explosion over rest if you are gonna keep it in your team.

I laugh at 'good' Alakazams!

First of all, after Rain Dance, Kingdra kills Kazam in 2 Surfs while it can also take 2 Psychics from Kazam. So yeah, sure it's a 'big' problem.

Secondly, even Ninjask can beat Kazam, you Sub up until Liechi activates and kill it with Silver Wind.

@ Iceman3k, I'll keep Silver Wind for even the slight chances of stat raise since it's a heaven for a Bper to be able to pass down every stat raise.

Forretress was just replaced with Miltank, you can see my changes in the team in bold text.

Not Raik
08-03-2005, 12:04 PM
Kingdra just doesn't work with any physical attacks, don't even bother trying. HP Fighting won't kill any Tyranitar either, might as well stick to your Rain Danced Surf.

You should never put EVs into Def/SDef before putting them into HP. HP covers both Defense and SDefense, and is generally more useful. Ice Beam and Surf? You're going to have troubles with other Water Pokemon, who will take advantage of your Rain Dance if you switch out. Maybe Dragonbreath over Ice Beam, I don't know, I never liked Kingdra's too-balanced stats in the first place.

McGar. Get that. Other Gengar sets just don't work as well. No point being different if you know it's going to be worse. If you want to be different, you want it to be better.

Nidoking's Special Attack doesn't dent many, if any, things. Even with Super Effective, I doubt the damage will go too far above 1/2, that's for when attacking most Pokemon. Stick to a physical set and use Choice Band.

You need help against Special Attacks. And no, don't be too sure about your Kingdra. Firstly, I doubt you're going to leave him in for long, he can't even survive that long. So, when you finally switch out, Alakazam comes in. You try to switch in and gets 2HKO instead. A good player knows better than to let their Pokemon in at the wrong time. I would suggest dumping Kingdra for something...with higher Special Defense. I dunno, maybe Slowbro or something.

Max HP comes before Max Def and Max SDef. You can split the rest between.. Defense and something. You can try SDef, I guess, though I personally prefer Speed. Of course, you have Counter, which negates the need of Speed(Reminds me of Need For Speed.. cough), but hey, look out when the Special Attackers come in. I prefer Thuderwave or something over Counter, but it's your choice.

What's HP Ghost for? Psychic Pokemon? Think about it, a STABed EQ would do more. 100(Base Damage) x 1.5(STAB) = 150. 70(Base Damage) x 2(S/E) = 140. You still do more damage with EQ.

Silver Wind is fine. Ninjask should be the starter anyway, you can BP to Nidoking or something, though I personally recommend another Physical Attacker over Nidoking and not using Choice Band. Choice Band usually means you have to switch often because the opponent will usually switch into something you would be ineffective against, and all that trouble BPing would go down the drain.

IT
08-03-2005, 12:26 PM
Kingdra just doesn't work with any physical attacks, don't even bother trying. HP Fighting won't kill any Tyranitar either, might as well stick to your Rain Danced Surf.

You should never put EVs into Def/SDef before putting them into HP. HP covers both Defense and SDefense, and is generally more useful. Ice Beam and Surf? You're going to have troubles with other Water Pokemon, who will take advantage of your Rain Dance if you switch out. Maybe Dragonbreath over Ice Beam, I don't know, I never liked Kingdra's too-balanced stats in the first place.

McGar. Get that. Other Gengar sets just don't work as well. No point being different if you know it's going to be worse. If you want to be different, you want it to be better.

Nidoking's Special Attack doesn't dent many, if any, things. Even with Super Effective, I doubt the damage will go too far above 1/2, that's for when attacking most Pokemon. Stick to a physical set and use Choice Band.

You need help against Special Attacks. And no, don't be too sure about your Kingdra. Firstly, I doubt you're going to leave him in for long, he can't even survive that long. So, when you finally switch out, Alakazam comes in. You try to switch in and gets 2HKO instead. A good player knows better than to let their Pokemon in at the wrong time. I would suggest dumping Kingdra for something...with higher Special Defense. I dunno, maybe Slowbro or something.

Max HP comes before Max Def and Max SDef. You can split the rest between.. Defense and something. You can try SDef, I guess, though I personally prefer Speed. Of course, you have Counter, which negates the need of Speed(Reminds me of Need For Speed.. cough), but hey, look out when the Special Attackers come in. I prefer Thuderwave or something over Counter, but it's your choice.

What's HP Ghost for? Psychic Pokemon? Think about it, a STABed EQ would do more. 100(Base Damage) x 1.5(STAB) = 150. 70(Base Damage) x 2(S/E) = 140. You still do more damage with EQ.

Silver Wind is fine. Ninjask should be the starter anyway, you can BP to Nidoking or something, though I personally recommend another Physical Attacker over Nidoking and not using Choice Band. Choice Band usually means you have to switch often because the opponent will usually switch into something you would be ineffective against, and all that trouble BPing would go down the drain.


Wow, you spent some time on that, but now I have to argue :tongue:

1. I'll try that.
2. I don't like McGars, and I want be more original, my Gengar works fine at the moment and it's a good starter because it can take down at least pokemon for sure.
3. Oh yes, it does. Ice Beam OHKOs Mence and T-Bolt 2KOs Skarm.
4.I used to have Slowking on my team, but I had no idea how to use it.
5. *coughGengarwithLevitatecough* And Gengar tends to be the most common ghost around.
6. Actually, no, I prefer to send it in later on in the game. Perhaps when one T-Bolt has paralyzed my opponent and then I have free time to SD.

Thank you.

Not Raik
08-03-2005, 04:40 PM
Wow, you spent some time on that, but now I have to argue :tongue:

1. I'll try that.
2. I don't like McGars, and I want be more original, my Gengar works fine at the moment and it's a good starter because it can take down at least pokemon for sure.
3. Oh yes, it does. Ice Beam OHKOs Mence and T-Bolt 2KOs Skarm.
4.I used to have Slowking on my team, but I had no idea how to use it.
5. *coughGengarwithLevitatecough* And Gengar tends to be the most common ghost around.
6. Actually, no, I prefer to send it in later on in the game. Perhaps when one T-Bolt has paralyzed my opponent and then I have free time to SD.

Thank you.

2. Well, if it works for you, then fine. But I can safely say McGar will work better in most situations.
3. Yes, I see that, after some testing. But hey, I say a physical set will work better. Take that? No, I guess.

And oh, Skarmory's going to blow you away before you bolt him to death. Either that or he'll just switch out.
4. Amnesia. Calm Mind. Pick.
5. HP Ghost didn't kill Gengar the last few times I tried, I can't be bothered finding the average damage. You're not going to kill the Gengar anyway, read the final part of my post.
6. Friend, you're depending on Thunderbolt to paralyze? ...

Dude, don't issue counters to Pokemon individually. You know, people will switch. SWITCH. You're taking as if the opponent never switches...

Oh, and if Ninjask doesn't go first, he'd probably end up as the last Pokemon or something, which sucks.

IT
08-03-2005, 05:06 PM
2. Well, if it works for you, then fine. But I can safely say McGar will work better in most situations.

4. Amnesia. Calm Mind. Pick.
5. HP Ghost didn't kill Gengar the last few times I tried, I can't be bothered finding the average damage. You're not going to kill the Gengar anyway, read the final part of my post.
6. Friend, you're depending on Thunderbolt to paralyze? ...

Dude, don't issue counters to Pokemon individually. You know, people will switch. SWITCH. You're taking as if the opponent never switches...

Oh, and if Ninjask doesn't go first, he'd probably end up as the last Pokemon or something, which sucks.


You bring up some good points.

2. Yes, it works for me, Giga Drain taken out for Ice Punch though :tongue: Which makes it almost McGar.
4. I put Slowking in my team instead of Kingdra.
5. It kills it. And after Bping from Jask, it kills it even more.
6. :tongue:

The only counter I have issued is Nidoking, and after BP speed from Jask, it will be able to counter some of the most common pokies, Skarmbliss, DDmence, Dragonite, Weezing, Snorlax.

Ninjask should still not go first, because it tends to be blown away when they send out a pseudo-hazer or hazer. At least that's what I do and then I can't do a thing with Jask as starter.

I have updated my team once again.

Not Raik
08-03-2005, 05:22 PM
HP Ghost from a Max Attack(252 EVs, Adadmant) Donphan doesn't kill a Gengar with 0 EVs in Defense and 4 EVs in HP. At least that was the case the last time I checked. I think the damage ranges from damaging a lot to OHKO, not necessarily always an OHKO. Well, you're still not going to milk any juice out of that Gengar if it's gonna switch.

And I doubt a good player would let you BP and not blow you away in the first place. Oh, and they won't blow you away when it's not an opener? Please, Ninjask just rings the siren for pseudo hazers/hazers, it's only natural some dude would bring in a psuedo hazer or something with...Rock Blast or something.

You just issued a counter against Gengar with HP Ghost on Donphan. Well, actually, that's about all, including Nidoking.

IT
08-03-2005, 05:56 PM
HP Ghost from a Max Attack(252 EVs, Adadmant) Donphan doesn't kill a Gengar with 0 EVs in Defense and 4 EVs in HP. At least that was the case the last time I checked. I think the damage ranges from damaging a lot to OHKO, not necessarily always an OHKO. Well, you're still not going to milk any juice out of that Gengar if it's gonna switch.

And I doubt a good player would let you BP and not blow you away in the first place. Oh, and they won't blow you away when it's not an opener? Please, Ninjask just rings the siren for pseudo hazers/hazers, it's only natural some dude would bring in a psuedo hazer or something with...Rock Blast or something.

You just issued a counter against Gengar with HP Ghost on Donphan. Well, actually, that's about all, including Nidoking.

Donphan is not a Gengar-counter, he is a p-hazer and physical sweeper. But he needs to be able to counter Gengar, since Gengars are common.

Yeah, how about I kill their p-hazer/hazer and then send out Jask? Thought of that before?...

But I agree you on that people do SWITCH. But if you're not expecting a HP Ghost from a Donphan, why would you switch? Standard Donphan:

Rapid Spin
Earthquake
Ancient Power/Rock Slide/ HP Rock
Roar

If they have Gengar, they'll predict a Rock type move, not HP Ghost. Besides, if my Donphan already has +speed from Jask, why would they even switch, knowing that the pokie they send out will die...

Thanks again.

Regice 2005
08-03-2005, 08:11 PM
slowking is almost completely outclassed by slowbro.

Slowbro@chesto
Surf
Psychic
Rest
Calm mind

Its like a mini suicune with psychic...

IT
08-03-2005, 08:39 PM
slowking is almost completely outclassed by slowbro.

Slowbro@chesto
Surf
Psychic
Rest
Calm mind

Its like a mini suicune with psychic...

Thanks, I'll change...

Forsety
08-03-2005, 09:26 PM
Slowking isn't utterly outclassed.......for starters after 2 CM's it can take STAB T-bolt from Jolteon rather well, Slowbro can't boast that. Its just defense tends to be valued more within this game.

Not Raik
08-04-2005, 10:47 AM
Donphan is not a Gengar-counter, he is a p-hazer and physical sweeper. But he needs to be able to counter Gengar, since Gengars are common.

Yeah, how about I kill their p-hazer/hazer and then send out Jask? Thought of that before?...

But I agree you on that people do SWITCH. But if you're not expecting a HP Ghost from a Donphan, why would you switch? Standard Donphan:

Rapid Spin
Earthquake
Ancient Power/Rock Slide/ HP Rock
Roar

If they have Gengar, they'll predict a Rock type move, not HP Ghost. Besides, if my Donphan already has +speed from Jask, why would they even switch, knowing that the pokie they send out will die...

Thanks again.
I meant issuing moves to Pokemon to counter only certain Pokemon. Like HP Ghost on Gengar.

And dude, why don't you try out this team first? Against a good player? A psuedo hazer or hazer is an important role, no good player lets it go down easily.

Don't count on Ninjask. Firstly, you say you'll get him in after you've dealt with the pseduo hazer or hazer. And your Donphan is relying on Ninjask's speed boost. Which means unless the enemy psuedo hazer is taken out, both Donphan and Ninjask won't come in. These...combos don't work. Not very well, at least. Okay, sure, and you'll send Donphan in before he gets his speed boost. Then he'll likely die before he does any real damage thanks to his lack of Rest(Forgot to note you about that earlier on. Rest on Tanks is just about a must). Oh, and Donphan may have a high attack, but quite a few water Pokemon can suvive attacks. Oh, oh, I've got something.

Starmie. Your whole team is weak against it, if you haven't realised. Thunderbolt downs Slowking and Ninjask. Surf wipes out Nidoking, Donphan. Psychic kills Gengar. Miltank... Well, low SDef, and its only Seismic Toss won't really pose as any trouble against a Starmie with Recover/Rest. Slowbro is similarly good against your team, and another huge bunch of Pokemon. I still don't like the idea of a Special Nidoking, whatever...

Oh, and haven't I said HP Ghost won't take out Gengar for sure? The damage ranges from not-killing to over-killing.

And fix that Miltank EVs.

I'd like to have a battle with you on NB someday, though I'm somewhat...rusty. I'll use a couple of common Pokemon for testing :razz:

IT
08-07-2005, 10:47 AM
And dude, why don't you try out this team first? Against a good player? A psuedo hazer or hazer is an important role, no good player lets it go down easily.

Starmie. Your whole team is weak against it, if you haven't realised. Thunderbolt downs Slowking and Ninjask. Surf wipes out Nidoking, Donphan. Psychic kills Gengar. Miltank... Well, low SDef, and its only Seismic Toss won't really pose as any trouble against a Starmie with Recover/Rest. Slowbro is similarly good against your team, and another huge bunch of Pokemon. I still don't like the idea of a Special Nidoking, whatever...

I'd like to have a battle with you on NB someday, though I'm somewhat...rusty. I'll use a couple of common Pokemon for testing :razz:

I have tried my team against some decent players, I have won most or lost 2-0 or something like that.

I laugh at Starmie. Ninjask takes it out anytime. Basically, you sub until Liechi activates and you OHKO it with Silver Wind. Same with Slowbro, but Slowbro isn't that common.

And yes, I would like to battle you too. :tongue:

Regice 2005
08-07-2005, 04:55 PM
I have tried my team against some decent players, I have won most or lost 2-0 or something like that.

I laugh at Starmie. Ninjask takes it out anytime. Basically, you sub until Liechi activates and you OHKO it with Silver Wind. Same with Slowbro, but Slowbro isn't that common.

And yes, I would like to battle you too. :tongue:


You OHKOed slowbro with ninjask?!?!?

IT
08-08-2005, 08:57 AM
You OHKOed slowbro with ninjask?!?!?

Ookay... Then maybe not, if that's your reaction :tongue: But what I'm saying is that Slowbro doesn't cause too many problems.

Forsety
08-08-2005, 09:55 AM
I found Sneasel is a surprisingly good Starmie counter myself........I just started using him again and he tore through Starmie.