PDA

View Full Version : Referee Problems


Lord Fedora
04-05-2011, 01:05 AM
So we have a problem. Too many battles, not enough ref activity. We've been bouncing a few ideas back and forth on how to fix it, but as it stands we don't have any solid plans save one, namely allowing anyone to referee a round regardless of whether they've passed the test or not. We've agree to a referendum, since the staff is in disagreement on the subject, and a poll, as well as some more details from Paperfairy, who proposed the idea, will be edited in soon. In the meantime, thoughts, questions, and most especially other ideas are very much encouraged.

EDIT: Hi, paperfairy here. I'll just post my proposal directly from the staff board.


This worked in the original (very first) ASB with pretty good success. It solves the ref problem pretty well.

Allow anybody to ref battles.

We'll call them volunteer referees - trainers that can use the resources to ref a battle, but since they're not official, they won't be getting paid for it. We can add a clause to the VS Seeker for Volunteer Referees, so battlers can choose whether or not they want volunteer referees or not (much like open/closed is a clause now). This way, they accept full responsibility if their ref screws something up. I propose the same thing be done for Safari Rangers.


Keep in mind, I don't particularly LIKE my proposal, but I think it will fix the problem. We are all open for any and all discussion on the manner, however, so let it rip. =]

paperfairy
04-05-2011, 03:59 PM
*watches tumbleweed*

Elecii
04-05-2011, 04:05 PM
I think that would work, but if people had the choice to ref for free or for money would they really choose to do it for free? Unless of course they're lazy or failed the ref test.

But, also if you did that it would probably cause some problems, like what if two people had a battle, and they'd posted everything 'n all, then when the referee posts, there are tons of mistakes - what would happen then? Same if the layout was all wrong, or the calculations were off by loads - what would then happen?

I think that it would solve the 'we don't have enough refs' problem - but it would also create problems of its own.

Just my opinion.

Mawile-Danmaku
04-05-2011, 04:13 PM
Perhaps we could provide a more in-depth, step by step tutorial so people can see the exact steps needed to ref or simpkler methods; I think the reason aren't becoming refs is the math is too intimidating.
Maybe we could increase the pay, too. Or lenghten DQ's.

Lord Fedora
04-05-2011, 04:57 PM
I think that would work, but if people had the choice to ref for free or for money would they really choose to do it for free? Unless of course they're lazy or failed the ref test.

But, also if you did that it would probably cause some problems, like what if two people had a battle, and they'd posted everything 'n all, then when the referee posts, there are tons of mistakes - what would happen then? Same if the layout was all wrong, or the calculations were off by loads - what would then happen?

I think that it would solve the 'we don't have enough refs' problem - but it would also create problems of its own.

Just my opinion.

The idea as it stands (and for the record, I don't like it) is that amateur refs would be paid maybe $2 for every round they do, and it would potentially go as extra credit towards becoming an official ref.

That's actually exactly why I don't like it. We (that is to say, myself, Paperfairy and 3m0d0ll) would have to run around correcting amateur hour reffing, which frankly is a waste of our time. We might as well be reffing the rounds ourselves then.

Perhaps we could provide a more in-depth, step by step tutorial so people can see the exact steps needed to ref or simpkler methods; I think the reason aren't becoming refs is the math is too intimidating.
Maybe we could increase the pay, too. Or lenghten DQ's.

Paperfairy is doing some work on a project to make the math bit significantly easier. As for increasing pay or lengthening DQs, that's the kind of thing that was tried in the old ASB. It didn't work.

Elecii
04-05-2011, 05:11 PM
The idea as it stands (and for the record, I don't like it) is that amateur refs would be paid maybe $2 for every round they do, and it would potentially go as extra credit towards becoming an official ref.

That's actually exactly why I don't like it. We (that is to say, myself, Paperfairy and 3m0d0ll) would have to run around correcting amateur hour reffing, which frankly is a waste of our time. We might as well be reffing the rounds ourselves then.

Ah, ok that makes sense.

Yeah, I agree, it's not really a good idea. It would just mean more work for officials - and yeah, it would be like you're doing the reffing yourself anyway, in which case there would be no need for the volunteer referees.

Since reffing takes a lot of time and effort, there is a need for quite a lot of referees.

I can't really think of any ideas at the moment, but maybe lowering the limit on battles to only two? That way there will be less battles, and there won't be as much work for lots of referees. I know thta isn't a great idea either, but it may be one idea to solving the referee issue without actually having to get more referees through letting anyone ref.

paperfairy
04-05-2011, 05:41 PM
Perhaps we could provide a more in-depth, step by step tutorial so people can see the exact steps needed to ref or simpkler methods; I think the reason aren't becoming refs is the math is too intimidating.
Maybe we could increase the pay, too. Or lenghten DQ's.
For the record, and I'll address everybody else later - there IS a step by step manual in the Core Kit. Everybody who has failed the test thus far has failed because they didn't follow all the steps for every attack.

EDIT: aaand if you could just point out some of the intimidating math I'd love to fix it but I worked pretty hard to avoid that!

Dark Moonlight
04-05-2011, 05:48 PM
Perhaps we could provide a more in-depth, step by step tutorial so people can see the exact steps needed to ref or simpkler methods; I think the reason aren't becoming refs is the math is too intimidating.
Maybe we could increase the pay, too. Or lenghten DQ's.
The math isn't my problem, it's writing the whole round out. I simply don't have enough time for that, hence why I'm not a referee. I would do the ref test if I had the time. I don't.

3m0d0ll
04-05-2011, 06:05 PM
But, also if you did that it would probably cause some problems, like what if two people had a battle, and they'd posted everything 'n all, then when the referee posts, there are tons of mistakes - what would happen then? Same if the layout was all wrong, or the calculations were off by loads - what would then happen?

That's my main issue on this. Legit Refs would have to go around and fix mistakes (even if there aren't any errors, we'll still have to to the math to know that the Round was calculated properly); we might as well just do it ourselves! The part I hate about Reffing is the maths part - I can write a battle scene in 30 minutes if I'm dedicated enough and not distracted. :P

Perhaps we could provide a more in-depth, step by step tutorial so people can see the exact steps needed to ref or simpler methods; I think the reason aren't becoming refs is the math is too intimidating.
Maybe we could increase the pay, too. Or lengthen DQ's.
I agree with bold'd; Elbub's Spread Sheet was simple to use and you could calculate how much damage an attack did all on one page, where as Paperfairy's require you to continuously go back and forth (quite exhausting, really). As for pay, we docked each Round from three actions each to two, so, imo, we're actually over-paying people. But I'm not going to complain ;D Lengthen DQ's? Nearly all current battles are Open, meaning any Ref can submit a Round, so there isn't a DQ limit for the Ref. If you're talking about battlers, then I don't see how this is relevant...

Justin, is there a way you can make it look more similar (Idk if that's a good combination of words, language wise) to the original? I can email it to you if you don't have it on hand, if you'd like. :3

My main ideas to fix the Compenduim are:
Have groups or brackets, like Elbub did.
Have STAB and no-STAB calculation on the same page.
Get rid of that damn Energy bracket thing that has caused my brain so much agony.
And everything else we talked about on GTalk, soyeah~

paperfairy
04-06-2011, 12:09 AM
So, are there any actual solutions to the problem being proposed, aside from reformatting Compendium?

3m0d0ll
04-06-2011, 12:21 AM
So, are there any actual solutions to the problem being proposed, aside from reformatting Compendium?

The internship idea I suggested..? Well, that doesn't really solve the issue, but it could make it so that there are less failed tests... :P

Velocity
04-09-2011, 11:28 AM
The only solution I can think of is to get more referees. But there's nowhere really to get referees from if, y'know, people are failing their tests. I agree with Jen, though, for the most part; I keep like seven tabs open with the Compendium at a time and it's still annoying for my tiny attention span to flip back and forth.

Our other problem as I see it is that people simply don't want to/simply have time to write up a round. It's currently the thick of the school year for a lot of people are simply too busy. That, and our battle/refs ratio, as opposed to what it once was, is waaaaaay off. For some it's math, for some it's writing, and for some it's both.

^ The above is pretty much just random thinking aloud (per se) about stuff that can't really be solved or has already been suggested. I think that allowing intern refs makes some sense but not much. If people wanted to ref rounds, they could simply take the ref test, surely? It isn't any harder than a normal battle.

However, it may help us with our problem. Let's stop and consider, though, that - no names - anyone could ref a round. Including the internet-noobs who act as though they don't really know English. You could have anything from quality from practiced refs, or you could have 'and so Azew ued draxo meyeot on sCragie but h3 missed1!11!' I've SEEN stuff like that before. Ever heard of Starkit's Prophecy, My Immortal, etc? Yeahhh.

I personally am getting back into the reffing game, so there's at least one new ref essentially XD
However, I really don't see much of a solution. Just an excuse to make a point and post a large post. c:

If you want to see major thinking out loud you can read that.
However, the only REAL solution I can see is what Jen proposed. I really don't think we're desperate enough YET to let this fly. It certainly may happen, but for now I think all we can do is rally our refs and muddle on. c;

Dino
04-09-2011, 12:40 PM
The math and calculating takes pretty much no time at all, I don't thinks that's the main issue.

The problem I run into is having to type up the whole post. This takes the majority of the time it does to ref.

Here is a couple suggestions I would make:
1. Aside from reffing, you could make a different person called a writer. The refs could pm the calculation and they could write up the actions and pm them to the ref so he/she could post.

EDIT: I liked this idea after some thought, so I wanted to expand on it. I came up with two different ways of doing this. First the buddy system. The calculator takes a test towards calculating, and a writer writes a post from random calculations as their test.
Once you have passed your test you will move on to another thread. In this thread you will post your activity level and possibly time zone. Then you can find a writer/calculator who seems to be as active as you. This becomes your "buddy". The calculator will send the writer the calculations from the battle. The writer will then send the calculator the written post. Then the calculator/writer posts both the calculations and writing in the ref post. The buddy that did not post can have some written credit in the post.

The other method is just a writer thread. The calculator posts their calculations into the writers thread. A writer will claim the calculations. Once they claimed it they must write the post out for it and send it to the calculator. The calculator then can post it, giving the writer credit in his post.

2. You could allow the refs to not have to add writing to their post until we get enough refs to deal with all the battles.

That's really all I have.

Velocity
04-09-2011, 09:49 PM
@ Dino: That is actually a logical idea.

Though at least one person (me; but I suspect I'm not alone) actually likes to be able to do it all themselves and just put it all together, etc, etc. I take pride in my work with things like the ASB. However, for a vast majority of people this may actually fly. Kudos, Dino. Kudos.

However I strongly advise against option no 2. I'm just one person, but I would seriously quit the ASBL if ever it was pure calcs.

Lord Fedora
04-10-2011, 01:14 AM
The math and calculating takes pretty much no time at all, I don't thinks that's the main issue.

The problem I run into is having to type up the whole post. This takes the majority of the time it does to ref.

Here is a couple suggestions I would make:
1. Aside from reffing, you could make a different person called a writer. The refs could pm the calculation and they could write up the actions and pm them to the ref so he/she could post.

EDIT: I liked this idea after some thought, so I wanted to expand on it. I came up with two different ways of doing this. First the buddy system. The calculator takes a test towards calculating, and a writer writes a post from random calculations as their test.
Once you have passed your test you will move on to another thread. In this thread you will post your activity level and possibly time zone. Then you can find a writer/calculator who seems to be as active as you. This becomes your "buddy". The calculator will send the writer the calculations from the battle. The writer will then send the calculator the written post. Then the calculator/writer posts both the calculations and writing in the ref post. The buddy that did not post can have some written credit in the post.

The other method is just a writer thread. The calculator posts their calculations into the writers thread. A writer will claim the calculations. Once they claimed it they must write the post out for it and send it to the calculator. The calculator then can post it, giving the writer credit in his post.

That's... actually interesting. I agree with Aeon, people should have the ability to be both at the same time, but definitely something worth consideration.

2. You could allow the refs to not have to add writing to their post until we get enough refs to deal with all the battles.

Yeeeeeah no. Then it wouldn't be anime style battling.

paperfairy
04-10-2011, 02:31 AM
Actually, 3m0 and I have discussed that idea in the past. How would we want to go about executing this though?

MoonKit
04-10-2011, 04:03 AM
The math and calculating takes pretty much no time at all, I don't thinks that's the main issue.

The problem I run into is having to type up the whole post. This takes the majority of the time it does to ref.

Here is a couple suggestions I would make:
1. Aside from reffing, you could make a different person called a writer. The refs could pm the calculation and they could write up the actions and pm them to the ref so he/she could post.

EDIT: I liked this idea after some thought, so I wanted to expand on it. I came up with two different ways of doing this. First the buddy system. The calculator takes a test towards calculating, and a writer writes a post from random calculations as their test.
Once you have passed your test you will move on to another thread. In this thread you will post your activity level and possibly time zone. Then you can find a writer/calculator who seems to be as active as you. This becomes your "buddy". The calculator will send the writer the calculations from the battle. The writer will then send the calculator the written post. Then the calculator/writer posts both the calculations and writing in the ref post. The buddy that did not post can have some written credit in the post.

The other method is just a writer thread. The calculator posts their calculations into the writers thread. A writer will claim the calculations. Once they claimed it they must write the post out for it and send it to the calculator. The calculator then can post it, giving the writer credit in his post.

2. You could allow the refs to not have to add writing to their post until we get enough refs to deal with all the battles.

That's really all I have.

Love the first idea, Dino. This looks like a job Neo would be good for.

Really, the math was the one that confused me, but to me, writing would take 10 simple minutes. I have about half a day at least. The writing doesnt bug me, I just dont wanna do all the math. Im in friggin fifth grade. I would be a reff if some of the work was made a pinch simpler.

Iridium
04-10-2011, 05:51 AM
The main reason some people shy away from reffing is the the writing bit. I don't think I would mind doing the math, but yeah, the writing sure takes a lot of effort, atleast for me.

3m0d0ll
04-10-2011, 05:23 PM
Personally, I can type up a decent round in about 30 minutes to an hour, tops. But when it comes to determining damage and energy usage... My brain just kinda poops out on me. Dino, as Paperfairy said, we have discussed this a bit, but the main issue is how we would distribute payment... Would the writing portion pay more than the calculations? How would we make sure that whoever posted the round gave proper credit? Would the writer have to be an official Ref or could they be anybody?

Those are just a few bugs I noticed off the top of my head, and, again, it is a good idea that we've talked about some behind the scenes, we just need to work out all the kinks before we 'publish' - for lack of a better term - it to prevent issues in the future.

Dino
04-10-2011, 06:27 PM
All good points.

@Aeon
I don't think letting people choose to do some on their own would not be that big of a problem. They would just go ahead and post. If you didn't want to do any with a partner you would just continue on as normal.

@3m0
Would the writing portion pay more than the calculations?
This... I don't know. I would say $3 Writing and $2 Calculations.

How would we make sure that whoever posted the round gave proper credit?
The same way you make anyone give credit. This is a matter of courtesy. If a uncredited person also didn't receive their pay, I suppose it could be worked out.

Would the writer have to be an official Ref or could they be anybody?
As I said before. You could make a writer test. This test, if they pass, would make them a writer. But in order to calculate or operate on their own, they have to pass a ref test.


So... those are my thoughts. Just kinda thinking aloud though.

3m0d0ll
04-10-2011, 09:27 PM
How would we make sure that whoever posted the round gave proper credit?
The same way you make anyone give credit. This is a matter of courtesy. If a uncredited person also didn't receive their pay, I suppose it could be worked out.
No, what I mean is... Idk how to describe it. Let's say Justin did the calculations and Aeon wrote and posted the round, not saying that Justin contributed. When Monday morn rolls around and I distribute pay, I'd give Aeon full credit. There would also be no proof that Justin did anything whatsoever. Then we have the totals to work out and if htis could be done in a closed battle, etc.

Again, I'm not against the idea, I'm just trying to work out all the kinks (which is why Justin and I are perfect for each other: He comes up with the ideas and bounces them off meh :P ♥).

paperfairy
04-10-2011, 09:38 PM
Proposal:

Make a thread in the Battle Board where one can just post the calculations for a round. Example:


Khajmer vs Paperfairy
Deoxys used Slap [-4 HP Dialga/-18 NRG Deoxys]
Dialga was fully paralyzed [-20 NRG Dialga]


Then, a writer is free to post in the battle thread itself with the full round, using the calculations. When everybody is paid, we can pay individuals that did calculations, and then pay refs based on whether or not they did the calculations.