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MystiKal
03-29-2006, 02:14 AM
So what are your thoughts on congress passing this law that Mexicans cannot freely pass into the US? I'll posts my thoughts once I seem some others.

AntonioBIO
03-29-2006, 02:17 AM
I think it is very unfair and mean, because we are all the same, no matter what race. I don't see what Mexicans did wrong.

MystiKal
03-29-2006, 02:21 AM
Lol, we currently have 11 million illegal mexicans in the US.

Pika57
03-29-2006, 02:31 AM
Lol, we currently have 11 million illegal mexicans in the US.

Who cares anyway?

We waste a ton of money every year trying to stop them. And now, we've got pepper farmers complaining that their crops can't be harvested without the mexican workers...

So stupid.

Just let them in.

If they don't bring drugs in, so much the better.

flareon008
03-29-2006, 05:27 AM
They also do a lot of the jobs Americans are unwilling to do. The illegal Mexicans actually have helped boost the economy. If we were to ship them back, it would be like the stock market crash.

::JD::
03-29-2006, 05:31 AM
That's what my history teacher said. I think it would suck to have an entire family for 20 years, and then have to be shipped to Mexico with no place to live.

Matthew
03-29-2006, 05:59 AM
I'm mixed on the topic... Here we go:

They are here illegally, so they don't have the right to be here. It is as simple as that. If they want to be here that bad, get a visa, or become a citizen. I know it is difficult, but if you want it that badly, then there you go... you can do it if you are motivated enough. They do do alot of the crap that we don't want to do. Alot of the california crop pickers are mexican. How many citizens do you see out there in the fields picking the crops? Not alot... or not even any at all. They are an important asset to our economy, but they should just get a work visa so they could be here legally and do their work. That will give them a few years to prepare for the citizen test or however that works.

That is my opinion. Please don't be offended by it. I don't mean to sound racist, offensive, or anything like that. It's just an opinion and no one should take offense to it.

flareon008
03-29-2006, 02:36 PM
I'm mixed on the topic... Here we go:

They are here illegally, so they don't have the right to be here. It is as simple as that. If they want to be here that bad, get a visa, or become a citizen. I know it is difficult, but if you want it that badly, then there you go... you can do it if you are motivated enough. They do do alot of the crap that we don't want to do. Alot of the california crop pickers are mexican. How many citizens do you see out there in the fields picking the crops? Not alot... or not even any at all. They are an important asset to our economy, but they should just get a work visa so they could be here legally and do their work. That will give them a few years to prepare for the citizen test or however that works.

That is my opinion. Please don't be offended by it. I don't mean to sound racist, offensive, or anything like that. It's just an opinion and no one should take offense to it.

Matthew, I understand what you mean, but getting a visa isn't as easy as saying it. It took eleven years before some of my relatives come to the USA. There is a lot of process, papers to be filled out, what kind of visa and etc. They reject for a lot of small reasons. A lot of them do it for a better life. They cross the boarder just to have their child in the USA because it's that important for them.

Neo Emolga
03-29-2006, 02:55 PM
Illegal means illegal. Sorry, but they don't pay taxes, aren't considered under the Census Bureau, and because US hospitals will always treat patients even if they can't pay, they get free hospital stays at the expense of tax payers.

Enough is enough, they should be forced to become full citizens of this country, or they should go back on home where they came from. Doing it "for a better life" is a good reason if you're willing to work hard over here and do it legally. It's not a good reason if you're expecting this nation to pay for all your needs but you're not willing to give anything back to contribute.

Secondly, race has nothing to do with it. When immigrants came over from Europe, they had to go through hell to become citizens, but they did it and they worked hard to learn English and adapt to this country's culture. With that said, the Mexicans shouldn't be given a special exception, and I already find it alarming that so many US schools are teaching Spanish when it's not our national language. If these illegal immigrants are getting all the benefits of being here but without paying taxes, I guess the rest of us should toss away our citizenship papers too so we don't have to pay taxes either.

As far as crop picking goes, those farmers shouldn't have employed illegal immigrants in the first place so they could take advantage of avoiding the minimum wage policy. And a lot of these companies have to stop beating around the bush to avoid paying it's workers minimum wage. If it's allowed to continue, then what's the point of minimum wage in the first place? Why even have any laws at all if there's not going to be any enforcement upon them?

Sorry, but there's no excuse for doing something illegal. If these illegal immigrants were unhappy with their living conditions, then they should have worked toward living here under legal and legitimate terms like the rest of us do.

Nasty Plasty
03-29-2006, 03:12 PM
They shouldn't be kept out like others have said. They come here illegally. Just because they're Mexican doesn't mean they're not allowed in. It'd be the same case if Americans tried to go to Mexico and live there. They'd have to do all the paperwork and stuff to be accepted in and live there. But, they'd be arrested if they got caught just sneaking in. I'd be totally fine if somebody from Mexico or any other country came in as a legal citizen. I've seen a lot of Mexican workers here since part of the border is in Arizona.

flareon008
03-29-2006, 03:48 PM
Illegal means illegal. Sorry, but they don't pay taxes, aren't considered under the Census Bureau, and because US hospitals will always treat patients even if they can't pay, they get free hospital stays at the expense of tax payers.

Enough is enough, they should be forced to become full citizens of this country, or they should go back on home where they came from. Doing it "for a better life" is a good reason if you're willing to work hard over here and do it legally. It's not a good reason if you're expecting this nation to pay for all your needs but you're not willing to give anything back to contribute.

Secondly, race has nothing to do with it. When immigrants came over from Europe, they had to go through hell to become citizens, but they did it and they worked hard to learn English and adapt to this country's culture. With that said, the Mexicans shouldn't be given a special exception, and I already find it alarming that so many US schools are teaching Spanish when it's not our national language. If these illegal immigrants are getting all the benefits of being here but without paying taxes, I guess the rest of us should toss away our citizenship papers too so we don't have to pay taxes either.

As far as crop picking goes, those farmers shouldn't have employed illegal immigrants in the first place so they could take advantage of avoiding the minimum wage policy. And a lot of these companies have to stop beating around the bush to avoid paying it's workers minimum wage. If it's allowed to continue, then what's the point of minimum wage in the first place? Why even have any laws at all if there's not going to be any enforcement upon them?

Sorry, but there's no excuse for doing something illegal. If these illegal immigrants were unhappy with their living conditions, then they should have worked toward living here under legal and legitimate terms like the rest of us do.

With your first line of thought, it's like you're saying people who are on welfare should only blame themselves and get a better paying job. Problem solved? Many illegal immigrants do become full citizens of the United States. Americans are unwilling to take jobs that are disgusting, so they take up our slack. Yes, they're not paying taxes because really, they do not exist to the United States' eyes, however, even rich people skip playing taxes. If they are found to be living in the United States and shipped back to their native land; it's like placing a child back in a violent home. We have large companies that outsource and our President promotes outsourcing. That makes it even worse on the economy than illegal immigrants ever will. Go ahead and toss your citizenship paper, lol, see if you could barely live how they do. Like I said earlier, it's not as easy as people think to become a citizen or get a visa. American working toward legal and legitimates way was a long time ago. Today, we take granted for what we have.

As for the appalling statement about a second language is ridiculous; many other countries teach two, three languages in school. They may never come to the United States but are forced to learn "OUR" language. Spanish is the second widely use language in the United States, so it's obvious that it would help teach them young. We choose a language elective in high school, why not start younger?

Neo Emolga
03-29-2006, 03:57 PM
Outsourcing is its own problem, trust me, I am definitely not in support of that. But that is its own issue.

I wouldn't mind the Mexicans here as long as they tried to get their citizen ship. Like your welfare example, people on welfare get thrown off of it if they stop actively looking for a job.

And hate to say it, but it's their own country that needs to fix its problems. If Mexicans are unhappy with living in their country, fixing their own country's problems should be first on the list, not moving over here...

Alonso
03-29-2006, 09:22 PM
They also do a lot of the jobs Americans are unwilling to do. The illegal Mexicans actually have helped boost the economy. If we were to ship them back, it would be like the stock market crash.
There are a lot of Americans out on the streets without jobs so reconsider your thoughts.
If they don't bring drugs in, so much the better.
More than just Mexicans try to get through the border. Colombian drugdealers are always trying to get through and a bunch of other illegals with their own purposes are trying to get through. So opening the border is a bad idea. This is America we are talking about, the only super power left. If we open, then we are open to an attack.
EDIT: If we do open the border we would have to enforce the southern border of Mexico and the Mexican airports would have to be in US control so we remain safe.
I already find it alarming that so many US schools are teaching Spanish when it's not our national language.
Yeah so, US schools also teach French and that isn't even close to the English language. And I don't see people complaining about French.
And how do you think the REST of the world feels about learning english. Almost all the schools in the world who do not have english as their national language have to learn it.
They also do a lot of the jobs Americans are unwilling to do. The illegal Mexicans actually have helped boost the economy. If we were to ship them back, it would be like the stock market crash.
Partially true. The Mexicans do boost the economy, but only the ones who are rich and have money to invest or start a business. The job of an immigrant is to start a private business and you get the visa (and you have to have a clean record). Not to take the job of an American.
Sorry, but they don't pay taxes
Some illegals do pay taxes because somehow they obtain a Social Security and then they HAVE to pay taxes. The ones who don't pay taxes are out of luck. They should get out.
Conclusion
The Mexican is closed to illegals and should be remained closed. IT is too dangerous to open that border. If the Mexican border was opened we would have to keep a very CLOSE and SHARP eye on the border for other illegals trying to get in. You would actually spend more money supervising the border. Like Cuba...they go to Mexico and they might get in.

DragoniteMistress
03-29-2006, 09:35 PM
This may sound prejudice but I'm not, it's just annoyed me because basically my whole neighborhood is Mexican and none of them speak English.

flareon008
03-29-2006, 09:43 PM
There are a lot of Americans out on the streets without jobs so reconsider your thoughts.

Partially true. The Mexicans do boost the economy, but only the ones who are rich and have money to invest or start a business. The job of an immigrant is to start a private business and you get the visa (and you have to have a clean record). Not to take the job of an American.

Yes, there is a record of high unemployment from not too long ago. However, businesses reported a lack of hiring due to skilled workers. So many of these unemployed people have very little skill, so it's harder for them to get a job. Plus, if there was 0% of unemployment, you know how harsh expenses would become?

To take a job from an American, the American has to be willing to do the job; many are unwilling those awful jobs.

I'm not not trying to imply "open the flood gates." I'm merely explaining that it's not as easy as some have explained. It took American years and plenty of wars before we came to what we have today. Saying fix their own problems in country will break out into wars. Live will be lost; Iraq 2.

Finglonger
03-29-2006, 10:24 PM
bleh some of you people are so close minded. Are people criminals for wanting a better life?

Its like telling a person who is stuck in a well that you're not going to help them out cause its their own damn fault that they fell in there. As Americans or westerners at the very least we were all lucky enough to be born into a country of wealth..or at least of oppurtunity.

We have a respnosibility to these people, Teddy Roosevelts perversion of the Monroe doctrine caused many of the problems in both mexico as well as extensively in central and south america. America implanted a lot of the social and economic strife into these countries. We exploited their natural resources..ahem United Fruit company anybody? We implanted Dictators when democratically elected leaders opposed our policy. Fuglencia Batista, Somozo(hell all of Nicaragua...since the tried to tax the united fruit company), Hawaii, Haiti...in 1921 President Coolidge dposed the president of Guatemala because he wanted to tax the United fruit compnay..guess who he put in charge? a right wing dictator..god theres just so much to go into. And not all Illegals are from mexico..many are from central america..which as you should have been able to tell we royally screwed over many times. The thing is we screwed these countries up. We went into them with our imperial banners raised high and took all we could. We basically controlled cuba for years under the Platt amendment..our sugar companies controlled more land than the people of cuba themselves! and you better believe we took all we could from them.

So don't be getting all preachy..we created these problems or propelled them. And dont go off on your whole spiel..well my family came from europe and did it legally bullshit. Cause it was a hell of a lot easier back then..all you had to do was show up and get processed. It takes many more years nowadays....

You people are so uppity over illegals being able to come here and god forbid get an education or heavens get some medical care. Even if they were citizens the state would still pay, because they would hardly have the means with the unskilled labor they're doing. Yeah they dont pay taxes, but they are doing the work we dont want to do for less than minimum wage. Ever wonder why all your god damn things are so cheap? because the labor that produced them is akin to slave wages. Those oranges you buy..pretty cheap eh..borne on the backs of immigrant laborers, but they're just happy to have work, to be able to hope that the money they earn might buy their loved ones a better life.

God damnit we have it so easy...and yet here we are complaining over some nationalist bullshit. Oh no look theres an illegal immigrant..stop him before he takes your job Neo! Honestly....this is ridiculous. We need to clean up the mess we made..

more later..I have work

Clutch
03-29-2006, 11:01 PM
Okay, first off, Mexicans should be able to come and go as they please.

As people may not think, Mexicans do all the crappy and dirty work that us God Damn lazy Americans don't want to do. Also, they're people just like us, correct? They may not speak perfect English, but you should still respect them. I mean, c'mon, they do most of the work in the USA, and we treat them badly? That's just plain ignorant...

Alakazam
03-30-2006, 03:13 AM
I think it is very unfair and mean, because we are all the same, no matter what race. I don't see what Mexicans did wrong.

No, I don't think you understand. It's not that just Mexicans aren't allowed to cross the border. They want to close the Mexican border because of the high volume of people coming to the US illegally. Like Neo said, it has nothing to do with race.

Lol, we currently have 11 million illegal mexicans in the US.

Yeah...that's almost as many legal Mexicans immigrant we have in the US.


Who cares anyway?

We waste a ton of money every year trying to stop them. And now, we've got pepper farmers complaining that their crops can't be harvested without the mexican workers...

So stupid.

Just let them in.

If they don't bring drugs in, so much the better.

If we just let them in, that what point is there in having a legal process for immigrants at all? If we were to just let anyone and everyone in from the Mexican border, than we'd have to do the same for all immigrants. That could be a serious problem.


They are here illegally, so they don't have the right to be here. It is as simple as that. If they want to be here that bad, get a visa, or become a citizen. I know it is difficult, but if you want it that badly, then there you go... you can do it if you are motivated enough. They do do alot of the crap that we don't want to do. Alot of the california crop pickers are mexican. How many citizens do you see out there in the fields picking the crops? Not alot... or not even any at all. They are an important asset to our economy, but they should just get a work visa so they could be here legally and do their work. That will give them a few years to prepare for the citizen test or however that works.

That is my opinion. Please don't be offended by it. I don't mean to sound racist, offensive, or anything like that. It's just an opinion and no one should take offense to it.

While it is true that they don't technically have the right to be here, don't you think that its a bit harsh? We're not talking about murderers and rapists crossing the border or anything. The vast majority of these people are families that simply can't support themselves, and so they cross the border in hopes of finding ways of properly caring for their families. Are they breaking the law? Yes. But do you really blame them? Wouldn't you do the same if you were in the same position? ...and don't tell me that you wouldn't, that you would go through the legal process for immigration. What if you were turned back (as so many people are)? What then? Stay in your country and live in abject poverty? and for what? To respect US laws?


Neo: While I do agree that these people should become citizens, I think you're being very vindictive. Coming to the US for a better life isn't a good reason if they do it illegally? Do you really believe that?

fing: I'm just going to say 'ditto' - You bring up some excellent points.

Alonso
03-30-2006, 03:17 AM
Unfortunately, this mess cannot be fixed. Everybody hates the US. They don't want our help. It would take billions of dollars to fix those countries. Basically, we would have to do what we are doing in Iraq, invade a country and set things straight (however that not might be the situation in Iraq).

If Mexicans came and went as they pleased the US would be so out of control. Druglords, terrorists, and dangerous people can get in. Besides the Mexicans don't want to go in and out as they please, they'd stay here and the US would be over populated. Do you guys want to live with 2 other families for the rest of your life in the same house, just because we opened the border, I think not. I agree with Finglonger to some extent, but some of the stuff he says just cannot be done.

So many of these unemployed people have very little skill, so it's harder for them to get a job. Plus, if there was 0% of unemployment, you know how harsh expenses would become?
What do you mean expenses would go up. How would that work?
While it is true that they don't technically have the right to be here, don't you think that its a bit harsh? We're not talking about murderers and rapists crossing the border or anything. The vast majority of these people are families that simply can't support themselves, and so they cross the border in hopes of finding ways of properly caring for their families. Are they breaking the law? Yes. But do you really blame them?
It is true that many families will try to get in BUT those murderers will take advantage of the opportunity and get in as well.

2nd Conclusion
Maybe the visa process shouldn't take so long like 10 years.

Marth
03-31-2006, 01:43 AM
Since none of you live in México, you can't have the whole truth from here.
First of all, not all México lives in poverty, and life in México is not horrible. Most inmigrants are from 2 states in the south, states that are mainly indigenous, towns so deeply inmersed in the mountains and in the forests, that it is impossible to have a normal life. People dream of going to the USA, getting a job, and living the rich life. But, how are they suppose it to do it the legal way?
Let's see. As flareon points out, it takes a lot of time to tramit a VISA. But more important that the length, is the cost. Some families of 5 members actually do a living with 5 or 6 dollars a day. There is no posible way to save enough money for a trip to a consulate of the United States in México City, stay there a few days, give the papers in, return to their hometown, come back for their VISA (since there's no postal service), then gather all belongings, travel to the border, cross the border, find a place to live with 5 dollars a day.
So, what do they do? They gather in groups, the fathers only, find a trailler that goes to the border, and hop in with groups of other people from South America. They starve to death sometimes, but that doesn't stop them. The driver usually leaves them in the border, or in the desert. Both places are dangerous, a lot of people don't know how to cross a river by swimming, and they don't have water for crossing the dessert.
Yet an awful lot of them manage to survive. Some of them are more intelligent, they get pregnant and have their babies in the USA hospitals, which grants their children the American Citizenship.
Truth is, they are so willing to work, they get contracted for jobs you american wouldn't want to do. But hey, you pay +-40 dollars a day. That's a lot more than 5 dollars a day, don't you think? So they start making a better life than they had. Sooner or later, the whole family recieves periodical money transfers, and sooner or later, the whole family arrives. Since they don't pay taxes, and it takes a while to get the Citizenship, they stay there for over 5 years, making a better life.

Now, the drug issue. The fact is, we have around 4 big mafia groups, each one controlling a different part of the border. They are so powerful, we spend a lot of money trying to stop them, and you do too. The situation is very tense on some states, for example, in Tamaulipas (that's next to Texas), a new police officer was appointed. He gave a speech, promising to erradicate the drug mafia. In less than 5 hours he was shot 12 times in the head, no witnesses.
The problem with opening the border, is that you fear what might come inside. Drug lords wouldn't be the problem, terrorists would. Drug lords have empires on México, not in the USA. Opening the border will simply increase the ammount of drug coming into the USA, which is NOT our problem that you depend that much on us, and the fact that you are the most hated country by terrorists is not our problem too.

If you see the movie "One day without Mexicans", you'll find out what could happen if we leave. Crisis. Truth is, we occupy more jobs than unemlpoyed americans. And a lot of those jobs are considered "dirty".

And, trying to kick all Mexicans will end up badly. I heard some manifestations appeared already. I'm not saying that it's right that they live there, but it's your fault in the first place that you didn't kick them out before they became too many. The reason? We do your jobs :D

In resume, think it twice before kicking us out. Or look for an alternative.

nŁŁb 95
03-31-2006, 02:30 AM
What is a law. What is legal or illegal. Are they not reflections of the general will of society? Are they not guidelines by which the will of society can be executed?

That said, what general will does the law limiting immigration reflect? What does it represent? What is the moral basis?

Xenophobia, ignorance, racism, sure they're all valid supports if they're abundant in society, but not all of us are Hitleresque (there, I invoked Godwin's Law, we got it over with). I mean, do "illegals" go against our morals? Is illegal immigration equal to theft, fraud, rape, or murder? What's the moral basis?

If we're going to say that they're subsidized by the wealthier people, then we might as well get rid of all the impoverished black citizens in urban areas, the rednecks in Appalachia who thrive on welfare checks, and in fact, make all of society purely privatized. Perhaps the final solution could be to rid the nation of anyone that's not part of the ubermensch, and allow pure survival of the fittest. No municipal police, please. No fire departments. No public health services. No public education. Oh imagine the glorious dystopia that would follow.

(slight digression here: Concerning the taxes issue, I think we all know that the wealthiest people in the United States are the true tax-dodgers. With high-level accountants, they can get around any government loopholes and thus "hide" their funds, and avoid or minimize taxes)

The basic thing is, "Illegal means illegal" in this sense is just completely illogical. In situations like these, the LAW is the entity that needs to be challenged, NOT the law-violator. "Illegal means illegal." Please. Yes, let's segregate caucasoids and negroids. No voting for women, cause that used to be illegal. Let's all become regressives, and in fact let's advocate strict fundamentalism in schools. Slaves running to the north would also be wrong, because after all, "illegal means illegal." What's the point of a law if you're not going to enforce it. WHIP those negroes for unjustly trying to escape from the righteous slavemasters!

Am I oversimplifying views? Yes. But anyone who so blindly accepts the status quo is treading DANGEROUSLY close to this type of bigotry.




Reasons against Illegal Immigration:


Fact: Latin American Nations are in general very religious
Fact: Latin Americans are generally classified in surveys and social science experiments as "Hispanics"


Controversial Fact: Intelligence tends to have an inverse relationship with religion.
Controversial Fact: Hispanics have intelligence quotients clustered lower than Blacks, Whites, and Asians.


Logical Conclusion: An influx of central Americans would cause a net decrease in the average IQ of the nation, thus lowering its overall intelligence, effectiveness, and quality as a nation.


Rational Solution: Concentrate and then exterminate all people with an IQ lower than ~110, including current citizens, and disallow any immigrants with an IQ lower than ~110. Or force them into labor camps and exterminate those who cannot labor effectively.

HKim
03-31-2006, 11:03 AM
Illegal is illegal, yes, but kicking them out nor opening our borders will solve this problem.

A lot of good points have been brought up. From an economic point of view, we need them here and, in fact, should allow more Mexicans to move here to boost the economy. That way, companies can create goods with cheap labor comparison to that of China (which, by the way, takes millions from the US in terms of trade).

From a legal point of view, we need to push them all out. The law is the law and we are being unfair to the millions of legal immigrants who came here legally. If those people who crossed the border illegally want to come here so bad, they can just as well wait like everyone else.

From a personal point of view, we need to let them stay. The Mexicans are mostly good people who only desire to work and create a better life for themselves and their family, all nobles goals of the American Dream. They are human like the rest of us and it would be unfair for us, the richest nation in the world, to deny our prosperity to those less fortunate.

From a citizen point of view, it's unfair. These illegal immigrants manage to receive several benefits from society without many of the costs, such as taxes. They appear to be sucking the life out of society and using us to gain wealth.

All these views are true and therefore make this topic controversial.

I think that the reason why it has taken so long for the topic to come to the forefront of events is because both major political parties in the United States don't want to bring the Mexicans in. The Republicans fear that Mexican immigrants will vote Democrat due to racial alignments and welfare. The Democrats fear that the Mexican immigrans will vote Republican due to relgious values and beliefs. What we have here, then, is the largest group of undecided voters entering the country that could greatly shift the American political scene. You have major states like Texas and California that could change political views entirely with an increased Mexican population (For anyone who doesn't know, Texas is one of the main Republican states while California is one of the main Democrat states).

We could go the middle route and simple legalize all the illegal immigrants already in the country, but even that solution is controversial.

Perhaps the only real solution is the continue doing what we are already doing. Eventually, through their children, the illegal immigrants will become citizens, but at a cost. They already don't receive many of the benefits a legal citizen receives (such as voting priviledges) and it is their fault that they don't. They came over illegally and must pay the price by losing out.

Already we protect our borders against terrorism. Increasing the defenses would increase costs tenfold and might decrease illegal immigration, which would hurt our economy. Reducing security would leave us vulnerable. We really are in a fine situation.

Alonso
03-31-2006, 04:04 PM
kicking them out nor opening our borders will solve this problem.
I was about to say that. We shouln't really kick them out nor open the borders. But I don't know why we are centering around the Mexicans so much. They aren't the only ones who try to get into our country. There are also a bunch of Cubans trying to get into Florida on their rafts.
If you see the movie "One day without Mexicans", you'll find out what could happen if we leave. Crisis. Truth is, we occupy more jobs than unemlpoyed americans. And a lot of those jobs are considered "dirty".

Could you give me examples of some dirty jobs that Americans don't like and Mexicans do.
But hey, you pay +-40 dollars a day. That's a lot more than 5 dollars a day, don't you think?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it more expensive to live in the United States. 40 bucks won't solve the problem and in Mexico wouldn't 5 or 6 mean the same thing as 40 in the US. Your practically living the same life.

EDIT: LOOK WHAT I FOUND!! Just came out today!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060331/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/bush_canada_mexico

Marth
04-01-2006, 03:11 AM
Could you give me examples of some dirty jobs that Americans don't like and Mexicans do
Housekeeping, Garbage recolecting, Cleaning jobs, Mass Cooking (Cooking a hugue amount of food), etc.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it more expensive to live in the United States. 40 bucks won't solve the problem and in Mexico wouldn't 5 or 6 mean the same thing as 40 in the US. Your practically living the same life.

Edit this later.

.:SD:.
04-01-2006, 03:19 AM
FU US!

Mehico Represent!

Razzmatazz
04-01-2006, 06:43 PM
These people shouldn't be allowed to freely stay here. They are illegal aliens, and thats where it ends. The one word, illegal. If they could learn english and become citizens, then it'd be different. But they arn't citizens, and the vast majority can't speak english at all. It's disgusting.

:rambo:

Alonso
04-02-2006, 12:34 AM
These people shouldn't be allowed to freely stay here. They are illegal aliens, and thats where it ends. The one word, illegal. If they could learn english and become citizens, then it'd be different. But they arn't citizens, and the vast majority can't speak english at all. It's disgusting.

:rambo:
Ok then, become president of the US and kick out all the Mexicans from the US. Then see what happens.

If the US opened the borders on Mexico, then the US would have to supervise Mexico's other borders (eg. Guatemala and Belize). They would spend more money surveilling the other borders so nobody that can harm the US might get in or even more illegals. Too many illegals is not a good thing. What they should do is, that all the illegal Mexicans in the US that work and help the economy and pay taxes should be given the visa or citizenship to continue working without trouble.

Thrall
04-11-2006, 01:06 AM
Well both ways America Is pretty much screwed .

Get rid of Illegals=Stock Market Crash=Economy Screwed

Keep Them Here:Not Inforcing A Law=Showing Weakness=Losing allies.

Alonso
04-11-2006, 01:13 AM
Keep Them Here:Not Inforcing A Law=Showing Weakness=Losing allies.
Not really...they won't be screwed in that situation. That is a really senseless logic. Nobody loses allies like that.

boltAge
04-11-2006, 02:04 PM
Problem is, some of you don't realise that a lot of the American economy depends on these illegal aliens. Do you see the average American white guy emptying your trash? No, you see a Mexican who happily does it for little money every month.

Anyways, a post I quoted from another forum.

"If you're suspected of being an illegal immigrant, for any reason, and can't procure at least 2 forms of valid state ID, you will be instantly jailed and deported in a matter of days. If you attempt to protest, since you will be deported soon, your case will be dismissed and your right to habeus corpus denied. If you wish, you can sign a waiver to get out and get your things, but the waiver means you waive the right to protest the decision for deportation.

If you help anyone who is an illegal immigrant you are also under the same suspicions and must also procure ID. If you might have vaguely gained from helping the illegal you're jailed for 5 to 20 years. Also, if you're suspected of aiding an immigrant, anything that might have helped the suspected illegal is immediately confiscated and you cannot protest the decision in any court of law, either state or federal.

Example: I'm riding in the car with my brother. Cop notices we're Mexicans. Asks us for ID since he thinks we might be nefarious border jumpers. Sam usually forgets his ID. Oh, no! He must be one of them there ILLEGALS! Better deport his ass! Oh, and I get deported too. Oh, and the car is confiscated.

If you're kicked out for any reasons you can't come back for 10 years."

The new laws are worded terribly and can easily be abused.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h109-4437
Sections 201, 202, 204, 208, 402, 407, 802, 803, and 809

Hmm.

Neo Emolga
04-11-2006, 02:24 PM
I swear we discuss this subject every night at the dinner table.

No, our economy will not die if every illegal immigrant is deported. We got along just fine before there was this frenzy of border hopping. If these farmers need people to pick their crops, too bad, they shouldnít have hired illegal immigrants in the first place. Obey the law, thatís what they should have done. And second, there are people who want those jobs, look at how many people are homeless and need jobs.

Secondly, America doesnít owe them anything. If they are dissatisfied with living in Mexico, Columbia, or whatever country, they should try fixing their own countryís problem, not coming over here under illegal terms. Coming to America to leech off of the institutions and society we worked hard to build is NOT an option. There was a time when there was nothing in America as well and things had to be build up right from the very beginning. Did early Americans head over to another nation to grab their benefits? No, they didnít need to. Mexicans donít need to either.

If they want to come to this nation, obey the law like the rest of us have to, no questions asked.

Seven
04-11-2006, 02:47 PM
I don' know very much about domestic affairs of the United States, but NP, it seems to me that you're thinking too black and white, even though there's a big gray part. Also, you kind of frame it as an "us/them" "we/they" which I doubt is appropriate.

As to what the US should do: I think legalizing is the only solution since I doubt banning would truly solve the problem.

Alonso
04-11-2006, 09:50 PM
I swear we discuss this subject every night at the dinner table.

No, our economy will not die if every illegal immigrant is deported. We got along just fine before there was this frenzy of border hopping. If these farmers need people to pick their crops, too bad, they shouldnít have hired illegal immigrants in the first place. Obey the law, thatís what they should have done. And second, there are people who want those jobs, look at how many people are homeless and need jobs.

Secondly, America doesnít owe them anything. If they are dissatisfied with living in Mexico, Columbia, or whatever country, they should try fixing their own countryís problem, not coming over here under illegal terms. Coming to America to leech off of the institutions and society we worked hard to build is NOT an option. There was a time when there was nothing in America as well and things had to be build up right from the very beginning. Did early Americans head over to another nation to grab their benefits? No, they didnít need to. Mexicans donít need to either.

If they want to come to this nation, obey the law like the rest of us have to, no questions asked.
Mexicans have always been in our country. They have always been working for us. Those people who are jobless don't live in near the places where the Mexicans. They are all in the freezing north.

Surly Professor
04-12-2006, 02:31 AM
I have mixed feeling about this issue.
I do feel for the folks from Mexico. (If you've never been, or never been more than a couple miles from the beach, most parts are teetering on the verge of the 3rd world.) And I welcome them with open arms because all they want is a job, and to help out la familia back home. But something has to be done to document these people who are working, because they just aren't in the system at all. It's a slap in the face to all the immigrants who actually did what they needed to to get here properly. But I can understand them sherking the system because it just seems like an endless loop of bureaucracy as it is now, while they are busy bustin' their asses to make a half-honest dollar. The new plan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4885672.stm) may not be perfect, but I believe it's an improvement on the existing system.

And all those kids who skipped school to protest should have been punished, not only for skipping school but for all the damage they did to city property, and rushing the train & bus systems, and forcing their way into City Hall for nothing other than loitering. The majority of them had absolutely no idea why they were even there. When asked why they were protesting most of them said "because of Bush" or "because they want to kick us out". 'Us' being a U.S. born citizen in the first place, and Bush is actually on thier side had they know the first thing about the issue. They just wanted to get out of school and cause trouble which they did. I know if it was a bunch of white or black kids they'd have thrown the book at 'em.

Also: all the spanish channels are reporting a scheduled immigrant strike on May 1st, and have been for over a week now. Just so ya know.
I wonder why I haven't seen a single english source report this yet.

Finglonger
04-12-2006, 09:26 PM
Secondly, America doesnít owe them anything. If they are dissatisfied with living in Mexico, Columbia, or whatever country, they should try fixing their own countryís problem, not coming over here under illegal terms. Coming to America to leech off of the institutions and society we worked hard to build is NOT an option. There was a time when there was nothing in America as well and things had to be build up right from the very beginning. Did early Americans head over to another nation to grab their benefits? No, they didnít need to. Mexicans donít need to either.


we dont owe them anything? read my last post please.
We screwed up their countries, we went in there and messed with their economies and with their political systems.

The answer is yes we did go into other countries, but instead of working there and stealing their "benefits" we stole their land, their freedom, and their economic means. The american way of getting ahead is explotation; we enslaved african villagers, we exploited the chinese, poor irish immigrants, southern europeans, slavs, american natives..hell you name it and if it wasnt a white male protestant northern european we used them to further our own selfish goals. Dont talk about american work ethic or american purity because that is a bloody lie, and if you dont think so then you are a freaking idiot. American work ethic is explotation, and thats about where it ends.

And you want them to fix their own problems? The ones we created mind you, all those right wing dictators, guess who put them in power? WE DID! We created the problems, we put those men in power, you try fighting against a right wing dictator...oh yeah I forgot you live in posh middle class ******* suburbia..the hardest decision you have to make is paper or plastic...

Tamer Marco
04-12-2006, 09:29 PM
I think illegal immigrants should have as many rights as other americans do, but they still need to become citizens. Its not right to just turn over a million people away just like that.

Alonso
04-17-2006, 01:20 AM
I think illegal immigrants should have as many rights as other americans do, but they still need to become citizens. Its not right to just turn over a million people away just like that.
WTF? Why should they? They weren't born in America Besides the Bush is doing that guest work program...so the Mexicans aren't going to get kicked but they are still going to be illegal.

Neo Emolga
04-17-2006, 02:45 AM
we dont owe them anything? read my last post please.
We screwed up their countries, we went in there and messed with their economies and with their political systems.

So what, now weíre going to be in their debt forever more? I donít think so, Mexico was never the economical capital superpower of the world, before or after that. If youíre going to give something to one kind of citizen, give it to everyone. Donít entitle them to free hospital stays before giving it to everyone else as well. Donít entitle them to tax evasion without entitling it to everyone else. And needless to say, that kind of system would never work. Therefore, letting them get away with it will never work either.

The answer is yes we did go into other countries, but instead of working there and stealing their "benefits" we stole their land, their freedom, and their economic means. The american way of getting ahead is explotation; we enslaved african villagers, we exploited the chinese, poor irish immigrants, southern europeans, slavs, american natives..hell you name it and if it wasnt a white male protestant northern european we used them to further our own selfish goals. Dont talk about american work ethic or american purity because that is a bloody lie, and if you dont think so then you are a freaking idiot. American work ethic is explotation, and thats about where it ends.

Please, donít tell me how many times I might have lost a job offer due to companies wanting to be ďdiversifiedĒ rather than hiring the best worker. Donít tell me how many times I had to struggle to get a college degree only to find out it really doesnít too much to get you a job anyway. Not everything is fair but it has to be dealt with. If you give one group something, some other group is going to be unhappy about it. In this case, letís think about whatís legal. Illegal immigrants are not legal, so if the US allows it to continue without penalty, then people will starting thinking the same with other illegal activities. Letís legalize drug trafficking, speeding, and murder why donít we?

If they want to say here, then they need to seek citizenship. If anything, maybe the US should make citizenships a bit (not too much) easier to earn. If they earn it and work hard to live in the United States like other American citizens, then there should be no problem. But donít try and cheat the system, I donít see how that at all should be commendable.

And you want them to fix their own problems? The ones we created mind you, all those right wing dictators, guess who put them in power? WE DID! We created the problems, we put those men in power, you try fighting against a right wing dictator...oh yeah I forgot you live in posh middle class ******* suburbia..the hardest decision you have to make is paper or plastic...

The United States can not be the worldís police man. It can not be the punching bag that bleeds money. It can not be a place to terrorize so that money could be yielded out of ransom for the countryís security. And it can not be a place where people can cheat the social system by not following the law. How long ago was the west won? Almost around a hundred and fifty years ago. Youíre thinking too much into the past.

Mexico is not a US territory. Sure, there can be interaction, but for the most part, theyíre on their own. The US is NOT responsible for their economic state. The US is NOT responsible for every one of their problems. And furthermore, the US is NOT the caretaker of their people. If they want to come into the United States, get citizenship and stop playing games.

And lastly, donít take this to a personal level, thereís absolutely zero reason for it.

NightBreaker
04-17-2006, 03:13 AM
Though I may show sympathy for the Mexicans, I must agree that they must at least try to get citizenship. They may escape here in hopes to solve all their problems, but it's not that easy ... practically everything isn't.

We are all blind from the truth of the world. Whatever seems easy can be hard and whatever seems hard is harder than it actually is or somewhat easy. If you look at it from an illegal's point of veiw, you can understand the hardship they had to endure and the hope they had of a better life in America, but if they can't follow the rules, they will endure even worse torment than before. Freedom isn't served on a silver platter along with luxuries we have never comprehended. It is earned.

I'm sorry for all the pain and torment and sadness the Mexicans had to endure in their lives that made them desperate enough to come to America, but, even if they do get citizenship here, it'll only be worse. Dying in a dirty gutter is a better demise than dying fat and lazy without a care in the world about anything other than ourselves. Without becoming legal, the lives of illegals will be hard in America, but with becoming a legal, it becomes much much worse. I doubt rape or murder for pleasure or selfishness in Mexico is as common as it is in a small city in a non-renound state.

Pleae tell me, anyone, what would there be in Mexico that is worse than what is in America?

Finglonger
04-17-2006, 04:14 AM
So what, now we’re going to be in their debt forever more? I don’t think so, Mexico was never the economical capital superpower of the world, before or after that. If you’re going to give something to one kind of citizen, give it to everyone. Don’t entitle them to free hospital stays before giving it to everyone else as well. Don’t entitle them to tax evasion without entitling it to everyone else. And needless to say, that kind of system would never work. Therefore, letting them get away with it will never work either.

actually in california we provide healthcare for legal citizens who are unable to pay for it as well..its called taking care of the underpriviliged. a thousand years from now, when america is a distant memory people will look to how we treated our lowest citizens..and non citizens, as is the case, and when they look back I hope they see a society that believed in tending to the lower classes..too bad they'll probably just see a bunch of douchebags

Please, don’t tell me how many times I might have lost a job offer due to companies wanting to be “diversified” rather than hiring the best worker. Don’t tell me how many times I had to struggle to get a college degree only to find out it really doesn’t too much to get you a job anyway. Not everything is fair but it has to be dealt with. If you give one group something, some other group is going to be unhappy about it. In this case, let’s think about what’s legal. Illegal immigrants are not legal, so if the US allows it to continue without penalty, then people will starting thinking the same with other illegal activities. Let’s legalize drug trafficking, speeding, and murder why don’t we?

affirmative action was deemed constitutional by the supreme court to be given to classically oppressed peoples within our nation. we screwed them up, and this is the best way to make amends...sometimes its difficult for people to bring themselves up out of poverty despite natural talent, and they never got the chances you did. consider yourself lucky to have been born into middle class america...you just cant apprecate what you have without wanting to take away the only chance someone else has


If they want to say here, then they need to seek citizenship. If anything, maybe the US should make citizenships a bit (not too much) easier to earn. If they earn it and work hard to live in the United States like other American citizens, then there should be no problem. But don’t try and cheat the system, I don’t see how that at all should be commendable.

You dont realize how hard it is to gain citizenship do you? I have friends here in california who are illegal..yes neo surprisingly they can speak english..(that may come as a shock to you), and they have been seeking citizenship for years..trying to do it the legal way then constantly facing obstacles and the threat of deportation before they can do it. I know this one guy, came over the border with his parents when he was very young, hes completely americanized, he has been through the california school system, doesnt really speak to much spanish..the thing is he's basically americanized..his parents have been trying to get citizenship for the past 5 years...they've lost sponsors and money that they have put into it...its just frustrating. following this law requires people to jump through freaking hoops..its ridiculous, most of these people want citizenship..so why not streamline the process? because employers would rather milk these people for everything they can..its the bloody washington lobbyists who scapegoat the immigrant and turn the public against him..when we are all immigrants ourselves! Unless you're an american native then your family immigrated here too...



The United States can not be the world’s police man. It can not be the punching bag that bleeds money. It can not be a place to terrorize so that money could be yielded out of ransom for the country’s security. And it can not be a place where people can cheat the social system by not following the law. How long ago was the west won? Almost around a hundred and fifty years ago. You’re thinking too much into the past.

the US cant be the worlds policeman eh? well they sure fooled me! Lets see..I dont think that mattered in vietnam, Korea, Iraq, the contra scandal, Nicaragua, colombia, cuba, and lets see what else..oh yeah whenever we wanted more money..it was fine then too. Its just not ok when it requires actually helping the people that we screwed up.

150 years ago aint that long in historical terms bud..the damage we did to these nations is long lasting..and we havent done **** to fix it. So what you're saying is any country can do whatever the hell they please, and not do anything to rectify it, but after a certain period of time then well it doesnt matter anymore.

Mexico is not a US territory. Sure, there can be interaction, but for the most part, they’re on their own. The US is NOT responsible for their economic state. The US is NOT responsible for every one of their problems. And furthermore, the US is NOT the caretaker of their people. If they want to come into the United States, get citizenship and stop playing games.

And lastly, don’t take this to a personal level, there’s absolutely zero reason for it.


Uh yeah we are..if you're not familiar with the United fruit compnay I suggest you look into it..if you're not familiar with one soldier of fortune william walker I suggest you look into him, if you're not familiar with the ironically named good neighbor policy I suggest you look into it.

Before America Mexico and much of the central american nations had the potential to be semi-prosperous nations, but we had to go in and exploit them as much as we could under the guise of protecting them from european powers, when really we stole their land and their means of economic development. whenever a leader spoke out, we staged a revolution! The united states thinks it can police the world..nothing has changed..all we are doing is screwing up other countries so we can benefit, history replays itself and stupid ignorant Jingoists like yourself play the same roles they always have, justifying the actions of an economic imperialist state!

Neo Emolga
04-17-2006, 05:18 AM
actually in california we provide healthcare for legal citizens who are unable to pay for it as well..its called taking care of the underpriviliged. a thousand years from now, when america is a distant memory people will look to how we treated our lowest citizens..and non citizens, as is the case, and when they look back I hope they see a society that believed in tending to the lower classes..too bad they'll probably just see a bunch of douchebags

Citizens, of course. But I see absolutely no reason to foster illegal border crossing. I know theyíre trying to raise families and theyíre trying to live a happy life. But simply coming to the United States to work and sending the money back home is just sapping into the country and not buying anything in the US only helps Mexicoís economy and hurts Americaís economy. I highly doubt we'd praise anyone in the US doing that to another country, and I know that other country really wouldn't appreciate it being done to them.

affirmative action was deemed constitutional by the supreme court to be given to classically oppressed peoples within our nation. we screwed them up, and this is the best way to make amends...sometimes its difficult for people to bring themselves up out of poverty despite natural talent, and they never got the chances you did. consider yourself lucky to have been born into middle class america...you just cant apprecate what you have without wanting to take away the only chance someone else has

My point being is that weíre all struggling. With that said, no one should be favored over someone else. No one is wrong for being Hispanic, but theyíre wrong for living here illegally.

You dont realize how hard it is to gain citizenship do you? I have friends here in california who are illegal..yes neo surprisingly they can speak english..(that may come as a shock to you), and they have been seeking citizenship for years..trying to do it the legal way then constantly facing obstacles and the threat of deportation before they can do it. I know this one guy, came over the border with his parents when he was very young, hes completely americanized, he has been through the california school system, doesnt really speak to much spanish..the thing is he's basically americanized..his parents have been trying to get citizenship for the past 5 years...they've lost sponsors and money that they have put into it...its just frustrating. following this law requires people to jump through freaking hoops..its ridiculous, most of these people want citizenship..so why not streamline the process? because employers would rather milk these people for everything they can..its the bloody washington lobbyists who scapegoat the immigrant and turn the public against him..when we are all immigrants ourselves! Unless you're an american native then your family immigrated here too...

Yeah, my family immigrated here too but they got citizenship legally. And it was hell to learn English here for them but they did it. They didnít have everything translated for them. But now, Iím starting to see Spanish labels all over the place. Hate to say it, but the official language of the United States is English. You could walk over to Russia and start speaking Spanish, and I highly doubt they're going to bend over to suit Spanish speakers the way the US does.

But I do agree, getting citizenship shouldnít be so hard. Thereís no reason to punish and overwork people who do want to become honest citizens in the US.

the US cant be the worlds policeman eh? well they sure fooled me! Lets see..I dont think that mattered in vietnam, Korea, Iraq, the contra scandal, Nicaragua, colombia, cuba, and lets see what else..oh yeah whenever we wanted more money..it was fine then too. Its just not ok when it requires actually helping the people that we screwed up.

150 years ago aint that long in historical terms bud..the damage we did to these nations is long lasting..and we havent done **** to fix it. So what you're saying is any country can do whatever the hell they please, and not do anything to rectify it, but after a certain period of time then well it doesnt matter anymore.

Yep, you proved it. The United States lost in Vietnam, the confrontation with Cuba was a disaster, and letís not forget the current ordeal with Iraq. The truth is, the US canít control the actions of other nations, and thereís no reason to keep trying. The whole point is, the US needs to stop messing with the affairs of other countries. Hell, this is probably the reason why so many other nations hate the United States.

And in your light, then England owes America big time. And so does Afghanistan. Letís not forget the whole revolution in 1776. Letís not forget the bombing of the World Trade Center. And what about what Japan did to Pearl Harbor? Donít you think theyíd owe the US for that too?

Live and let be. If we lived in the past like that, weíd have wars just on the behalf of past events.

Uh yeah we are..if you're not familiar with the United fruit compnay I suggest you look into it..if you're not familiar with one soldier of fortune william walker I suggest you look into him, if you're not familiar with the ironically named good neighbor policy I suggest you look into it.

Before America Mexico and much of the central american nations had the potential to be semi-prosperous nations, but we had to go in and exploit them as much as we could under the guise of protecting them from european powers, when really we stole their land and their means of economic development. whenever a leader spoke out, we staged a revolution! The united states thinks it can police the world..nothing has changed..all we are doing is screwing up other countries so we can benefit, history replays itself and stupid ignorant Jingoists like yourself play the same roles they always have, justifying the actions of an economic imperialist state!

This is history now, like I said before, this isnít a matter of who owes who. If we lived like that, everything would be full of anarchy and nothing would ever get solved. Yes, consideration should be given, but not to this extent. You donít see Japan feeling the need to compensate us for Pearl Harbor, nor do you see Afghanistan saying theyíre sorry for the events of 9/11. Letís not forget how much 9/11 screwed up Americaís economy.

And Fing, I told you to keep this off of a personal level but you go ahead and insult me anyway. Consider yourself warned. Now stick to the discussion and stop trying to throw insults in a meaningless way to supplement your debate.

Finglonger
04-17-2006, 06:20 AM
Citizens, of course. But I see absolutely no reason to foster illegal border crossing. I know they’re trying to raise families and they’re trying to live a happy life. But simply coming to the United States to work and sending the money back home is just sapping into the country and not buying anything in the US only helps Mexico’s economy and hurts America’s economy. I highly doubt we'd praise anyone in the US doing that to another country, and I know that other country really wouldn't appreciate it being done to them.

lol...I guess you get a different perspective living wherever it is that you live vs living right here by the border, seeing how bad they have it south of the border..the money that gets sent back to mexico really is the only thing standing between some people and total starvation.



My point being is that we’re all struggling. With that said, no one should be favored over someone else. No one is wrong for being Hispanic, but they’re wrong for living here illegally.

exactly...except that due to our past actions certain groups got screwed over..not only in the short run, but in the long run bro. You have to equalize it somehow...



Yeah, my family immigrated here too but they got citizenship legally. And it was hell to learn English here for them but they did it. They didn’t have everything translated for them. But now, I’m starting to see Spanish labels all over the place. Hate to say it, but the official language of the United States is English. You could walk over to Russia and start speaking Spanish, and I highly doubt they're going to bend over to suit Spanish speakers the way the US does.

uh no...but other countries often have several different languages spoken in them..among the first world america is one of the few protectivist countries left..that is other countreis teach other languages..yeah its a shock..but english is not the top language and other people shouldn't have to bend over backwards to accomadate america. We never learn other languages and just expect that everyone learn english. whether you like it or not we share common borders with spanish speaking nations, and if we wish to start working with them well we have to try to accomodate them as well. also countries like germany, france, hell even canada often have sings written in multiple languages..its no uncommon.

and yeah it was a lot easier to gain citizenship back then..hell all my ancestors did was show up...thats hardly goign through hell

But I do agree, getting citizenship shouldn’t be so hard. There’s no reason to punish and overwork people who do want to become honest citizens in the US.

good..its about time you said something that makes sense..and thats not an insult so dont start crying now


Yep, you proved it. The United States lost in Vietnam, the confrontation with Cuba was a disaster, and let’s not forget the current ordeal with Iraq. The truth is, the US can’t control the actions of other nations, and there’s no reason to keep trying. The whole point is, the US needs to stop messing with the affairs of other countries. Hell, this is probably the reason why so many other nations hate the United States.

yeah..you missed my point though..the US gets involved with other countries when its convienient..then ignores the after effects



And in your light, then England owes America big time. And so does Afghanistan. Let’s not forget the whole revolution in 1776. Let’s not forget the bombing of the World Trade Center. And what about what Japan did to Pearl Harbor? Don’t you think they’d owe the US for that too?

England realy doesnt owe america big time...the founding fathers were smugglers and for the most part just wanted to escape paying taxes..thats all about perspective.

Live and let be. If we lived in the past like that, we’d have wars just on the behalf of past events.

yeah..try telling that to the people whose lives were messed up, the economic effects wont be fixed by "live and let be" thats just idiocy


This is history now, like I said before, this isn’t a matter of who owes who. If we lived like that, everything would be full of anarchy and nothing would ever get solved. Yes, consideration should be given, but not to this extent. You don’t see Japan feeling the need to compensate us for Pearl Harbor, nor do you see Afghanistan saying they’re sorry for the events of 9/11. Let’s not forget how much 9/11 screwed up America’s economy.

yeah..about Japan..I believe we launched a nuclear weapon against them...and as for afghanistan..well that was largely a terrorist sponsoring govt...and if you believe that the US should try to live up to the high standards of the taliban..well I'd say thats pretty foolish. You go on about how great america is..if we're so great we should be above petty countries like terrorist sponsoiring afghanistan...really a poorly made point there bro

And Fing, I told you to keep this off of a personal level but you go ahead and insult me anyway. Consider yourself warned. Now stick to the discussion and stop trying to throw insults in a meaningless way to supplement your debate.

the insults are just a fun addition...I'm sorry you got butt hurt about them. what are you gonna do...ban me? that would be a pretty petty thing to do methinks..but something I would expect from you. I'll stop if you want me too, but I really do mean them, and I dont aim to apologize for them. This is a pretty personal thing for me since it affects a lot of people that I care a great deal about..so I cant keep it off a personal level

Neo Emolga
04-17-2006, 02:26 PM
lol...I guess you get a different perspective living wherever it is that you live vs living right here by the border, seeing how bad they have it south of the border..the money that gets sent back to mexico really is the only thing standing between some people and total starvation.

Point being, if you're going to do that, try to give something back to the US. Don't be a leech.

exactly...except that due to our past actions certain groups got screwed over..not only in the short run, but in the long run bro. You have to equalize it somehow...

And you find equalizing it by putting pressure on the American worker to be fair? Keep in mind that while they're not paying taxes or their hospital visits, someone else is. That's not equalizing anything.

uh no...but other countries often have several different languages spoken in them..among the first world america is one of the few protectivist countries left..that is other countreis teach other languages..yeah its a shock..but english is not the top language and other people shouldn't have to bend over backwards to accomadate america. We never learn other languages and just expect that everyone learn english. whether you like it or not we share common borders with spanish speaking nations, and if we wish to start working with them well we have to try to accomodate them as well. also countries like germany, france, hell even canada often have sings written in multiple languages..its no uncommon.

No, they can learn English like the rest of the immigrants from Europe did. Trust me, my mother is a substitute teacher, and she's given me plenty of stories where Hispanic children didn't want to learn English.

Also, English is one of the most widely used languages. Hate to say it, but your arguement sounds very one sided in favor of Hispanics. What makes them special to the point where they don't need to learn the language but the rest of the immigrants do? Again, that's not equalizing anything.

and yeah it was a lot easier to gain citizenship back then..hell all my ancestors did was show up...thats hardly goign through hell

I think that's more of the issue here.

good..its about time you said something that makes sense..and thats not an insult so dont start crying now

Immature comments like that don't bother me. They do, however, kill your integrity in this debate.

yeah..you missed my point though..the US gets involved with other countries when its convienient..then ignores the after effects

Like every other country in the world? Trust me, the US does more than most countries would do.

England realy doesnt owe america big time...the founding fathers were smugglers and for the most part just wanted to escape paying taxes..thats all about perspective.

You obviously need to read your history books more. It was way more than just that.

yeah..try telling that to the people whose lives were messed up, the economic effects wont be fixed by "live and let be" thats just idiocy

So I'm guessing according to you we should go back into history and start playing the "Who Owes Who" game? Should all Germans die because of the holocaust? Should all Turks die for their Kurd massacres? Fing, you know that's being completely unrealistic.

yeah..about Japan..I believe we launched a nuclear weapon against them...and as for afghanistan..well that was largely a terrorist sponsoring govt...and if you believe that the US should try to live up to the high standards of the taliban..well I'd say thats pretty foolish. You go on about how great america is..if we're so great we should be above petty countries like terrorist sponsoiring afghanistan...really a poorly made point there bro

Really poor made point on your behalf as well. Japan attacked the US first, and then the US asked Japan to surrender before they dropped the bomb. As for Afghanistan, are you saying we should just allow terrorism like that, just because that's the way they are? There's no excuse for extremeist beliefs like that.

And really Fing, if you don't love your country, then leave. No one's asking you to stay if you don't like it.

the insults are just a fun addition...I'm sorry you got butt hurt about them. what are you gonna do...ban me? that would be a pretty petty thing to do methinks..but something I would expect from you. I'll stop if you want me too, but I really do mean them, and I dont aim to apologize for them. This is a pretty personal thing for me since it affects a lot of people that I care a great deal about..so I cant keep it off a personal level

Fing, if you can't make a solid debate without insulting someone, then you shouldn't be debating, plain and simple. It doesn't matter how personal the issue is, insulting the other party will only make your debate less credible. And this is even beyond PE2K rules.

As for me, I'm not hurt about them, I just find them to be ignorant excuses on your behalf to support your flawed debate. And yes, it is against the rules. Ask yourself if these personal feelings of insulting someone are really worth getting banned for. And if they are, then don't be surprised when it happens.

Finglonger
04-17-2006, 10:39 PM
Point being, if you're going to do that, try to give something back to the US. Don't be a leech.

yeah..ever wonder why the goods you buy are so cheap? becuase the labor cost is so low...thats what they give back, they do the work that we as Americans don't want to do..for the most part they would probably gladly do it legally..which is why we need immigration reform



And you find equalizing it by putting pressure on the American worker to be fair? Keep in mind that while they're not paying taxes or their hospital visits, someone else is. That's not equalizing anything.


so what do you propose? not allow admission to hospitals for people because they can't pay? What will you have then? people dying in the streets? thats like not rescuing somebody from a well on the grounds that they shouldn't have gotten themselves stuck down there...or because they dont have money to pay for a rescue crew. I honestly don't understand why you wouldn't want to allow people to be admitted into a hospital..even if they couldn't pay for it..I think its a better use of my tax dollars than say I dont know weapons manufacturing..or some god foresaken war in the desert that nobody except Jingoists ever wanted in the first place



No, they can learn English like the rest of the immigrants from Europe did. Trust me, my mother is a substitute teacher, and she's given me plenty of stories where Hispanic children didn't want to learn English.

Also, English is one of the most widely used languages. Hate to say it, but your arguement sounds very one sided in favor of Hispanics. What makes them special to the point where they don't need to learn the language but the rest of the immigrants do? Again, that's not equalizing anything.

yeah...thats not what I was saying..you misinterpreted me. I'm saying that most countries have multiple languages spoken within them and attempt to accomodate them to a certain extent..frankly I see nothing wrong with signs written in more than one language..it doesnt hurt or affect me in any way...but yeah immigrants should try to adapt in terms of language, all I'm saying is we should stop being so protectivist.




You obviously need to read your history books more. It was way more than just that.

Uh yeah..I'm aware of that..though it was really more of a self interest thing. Small things like restricting us to the appalachans in order to help the Indian tribes...but the main point they poushed for was TAXES..which were never even that high in the first place. The founding fathers were smugglers...no those lame stories they teach you in school are not always correct, its self interest...

So I'm guessing according to you we should go back into history and start playing the "Who Owes Who" game? Should all Germans die because of the holocaust? Should all Turks die for their Kurd massacres? Fing, you know that's being completely unrealistic.

when the hell did I say that? I said make amends...the Jews got their own country after the second world war...btw. also I'm not saying average americans should suffer..I'm saying our government should repair the damage...and is that really so drastic considering what we have done? stop trying to make me sound like a radical



Really poor made point on your behalf as well. Japan attacked the US first, and then the US asked Japan to surrender before they dropped the bomb. As for Afghanistan, are you saying we should just allow terrorism like that, just because that's the way they are? There's no excuse for extremeist beliefs like that.


ah yes..that certainly justified the terrible death and suffering we caused..yeah I can see your point...but that wasn't even the point I was trying to make..you made some outrageous statement where you said that japan never made amends for pearl harbor...when in fact I believe that the death of their citizens, poisoning of their ground water, and generations of mutations more than made up for the pearl harbor attack. and no you also misinterpreted my statement of afghanistan..I said that we should not live up to their standards...we should be above afghanistan. our government should be more responsible for its actions than the taliban. You said afghanistan owes America big time..well yeah, but they arent going to make amends because they are #1 a 3rd world country and #2 a terrorist sponsored govt. we are neither..ergo we should have a little more fiscal responsibility


And really Fing, if you don't love your country, then leave. No one's asking you to stay if you don't like it.

typical love it or leave it attitude.....I hate when people say this



Fing, if you can't make a solid debate without insulting someone, then you shouldn't be debating, plain and simple. It doesn't matter how personal the issue is, insulting the other party will only make your debate less credible. And this is even beyond PE2K rules.

As for me, I'm not hurt about them, I just find them to be ignorant excuses on your behalf to support your flawed debate. And yes, it is against the rules. Ask yourself if these personal feelings of insulting someone are really worth getting banned for. And if they are, then don't be surprised when it happens.

EDIt:Nvm...I'm done with this debate....its over and I'm acting like an idiot..but you tend to do that when you have a lot to lose....not that you would understand that

Alonso
04-17-2006, 11:14 PM
:eek:Wow! I thought that type of American only existed in books and movies. But no, NP is a good example. Always fighting and acting way to patriotic to let anybody else live in this world.

You guys have confused the topic too much. There is too much history of the US.
Japan attacked the US first, and then the US asked Japan to surrender before they dropped the bomb.
Eh? As soon as Japan attacked the US declared war immediately. The US never asked them to surrender before the bomb was dropped.
Fing, if you can't make a solid debate without insulting someone, then you shouldn't be debating, plain and simple. It doesn't matter how personal the issue is, insulting the other party will only make your debate less credible. And this is even beyond PE2K rules.

As for me, I'm not hurt about them, I just find them to be ignorant excuses on your behalf to support your flawed debate. And yes, it is against the rules. Ask yourself if these personal feelings of insulting someone are really worth getting banned for. And if they are, then don't be surprised when it happens.
OK that's a sad excuse just because fing is a better debater. He probably took this at a personal level because this isn't an actual debate. Just forum discussion.

And in your light, then England owes America big time. And so does Afghanistan. Letís not forget the whole revolution in 1776. Letís not forget the bombing of the World Trade Center. And what about what Japan did to Pearl Harbor? Donít you think theyíd owe the US for that too?
Why would Afghanistan owe the US. Afghanistan never attacked the US. 9/11was a terrorist attack. The terrorists just resided in Afghanistan. England wouldn't owe because the US got the independence they wanted. Japan was already cleared up.

This debate has gone out of hand. So I think my posts are going to stop here. There is too much that NP and Fing have argued that their ideas are out of place. And I think NP is rascist.

NightBreaker
04-17-2006, 11:31 PM
This debate has gone out of hand. So I think my posts are going to stop here. There is too much that NP and Fing have argued that their ideas are out of place. And I think NP is rascist.
You can't determine whether he's rascist or not because of his posts. He could be saying this in such a way that it only makes sense to him without showing signs of rascism.

Neo Emolga
04-18-2006, 12:17 AM
Eh? As soon as Japan attacked the US declared war immediately. The US never asked them to surrender before the bomb was dropped.

Uh... no, the US gave Japan a warning but they didn't listen.

OK that's a sad excuse just because fing is a better debater. He probably took this at a personal level because this isn't an actual debate. Just forum discussion.

The hell...? Insulting someone is against the forum rules, buddy. Otherwise known as flaming. There was no point to Fing taking it out of context like that.

Why would Afghanistan owe the US. Afghanistan never attacked the US. 9/11was a terrorist attack. The terrorists just resided in Afghanistan. England wouldn't owe because the US got the independence they wanted. Japan was already cleared up.

This debate has gone out of hand. So I think my posts are going to stop here. There is too much that NP and Fing have argued that their ideas are out of place. And I think NP is rascist.

Oh trust me, in due time this will be settled as well, but the point being is thinking what's the best way for it to be done. Something of this extreme is out of our hands anyway.

Secondly, I interact with people of all kinds of races at my job, and I don't go "OMG, an Indian!" "OMG, a black!" each time I see one. Every one is human in the end, I just hate it when people cheat the system.

Tamer San
04-19-2006, 03:23 PM
Uh... no, the US gave Japan a warning but they didn't listen.

That is what they teach you in USA, but it is not all correct. Japan did recieve a warning of an attack, but that warning was after Pearl Harbor tragedy. Japan laughed at the warning, which is correct, but didn't attack american targets inside the USA after Pearl Harbor, yet, the US dropped two A-Bombs in Japan, which caused genocide in both Heroshima and Nagazaki, not to forget the curse of nuclear effects over time and years, and the destruction of two cities in Japan.

I have nothing to do with USA and Mexicans, but what is illegal remains illegal whatever the case is. Mexicans, make a pasport, immegrate LEGALY to the states if possible and work there, pay taxes and live happily ever after without being chased like mice by the law forces.

boltAge
04-19-2006, 04:40 PM
It was called the World War II for a reason. It involved the world. It didn't benefit the US to have Japan undefeated and besides, the US did have direct military conflict with Japan after Pearl Harbour. Philippines was American territory at time of Japanese invasion. Sure, that was not inside the US, but most of the British empire wasn't in Britain too. Do we blame the British for fighting back? Also, there were naval conflicts, significantly Battle of Midway and Battle of the Coral Sea.

I don't see why you blame the US for dropping the nukes on Japan. The USSR was going to invade Japan anyway, but did Japan attack them? So do we call them a world police like you have called the US? Had an invasion of Japan been necessary, hundreds of thousands of lives would have been lost(on the US side). The Japanese were resilient and only such a weapon of power would have commanded fear in them and their willingness to declare an unconditional surrender.

Okay, this thread has gone wayy off-topic..but who cares? :cool:

Tamer San
04-19-2006, 04:49 PM
but didn't attack american targets inside the USA after Pearl Harbor

I used these words for a reason, I knew they attacked american targets in Philipenses(sp?) and other locations, but American land was safe after Pearl Harbor.

boltAge
04-19-2006, 06:08 PM
But they were attacked outside the US on their own territory too. 'but didn't attack american targets inside the USA after Pearl Harbor' Couldn't they have been attacked outside the US and retaliated too?

Tamer San
04-19-2006, 06:11 PM
Yeah, true.

And after thinking, why only Sadam or Milosovitch or Hammas considered war crimenals while Israel killing everyday, and Americans A-Bombing Japanese in a so cruel way, not be considered ones?

So off topic I know, but I need an answer for that.

boltAge
04-19-2006, 06:20 PM
Because the nuking was justified. It would have saved more people than it killed. Saddam...well, he just blows chemical gases at his people and killed about 5000 of them, I guess that's not really justified..

NightBreaker
04-19-2006, 10:00 PM
I used these words for a reason, I knew they attacked american targets in Philipenses(sp?) and other locations, but American land was safe after Pearl Harbor.
It's Phillipines. I lived there. Nice place. Very hot, but nice and humble place, nevertheless.

This has really gone off topic. From Mexican illegals to the cruelty of the A-Bombing.

Alonso
04-19-2006, 10:48 PM
Uh... no, the US gave Japan a warning but they didn't listen.



The hell...? Insulting someone is against the forum rules, buddy. Otherwise known as flaming. There was no point to Fing taking it out of context like that.



Oh trust me, in due time this will be settled as well, but the point being is thinking what's the best way for it to be done. Something of this extreme is out of our hands anyway.

Secondly, I interact with people of all kinds of races at my job, and I don't go "OMG, an Indian!" "OMG, a black!" each time I see one. Every one is human in the end, I just hate it when people cheat the system.
Look...as soon Pearl Harbor was attacked you see Roosevelt talking to the press asking Congress tp declare war against the Empire of Japan.
And even if the US did ask them to surrender, why would the US even ask to surrender. The US always counters anybody who attacks them.

Basically, if the illegal Mexicans left then the US economy would fall.

NightBreaker
04-19-2006, 10:56 PM
Look...as soon Pearl Harbor was attacked you see Roosevelt talking to the press asking Congress tp declare war against the Empire of Japan.
And even if the US did ask them to surrender, why would the US even ask to surrender. The US always counters anybody who attacks them.
Always is a strong word.

Do you always retaliate when hit or attacked by someone? I doubt it. And isn't the country controlled by the President? Why, I think it is. We get different presidents every once in a while, don't we? Yes, I think so. Does each human being react differently? Probably. Did every President react with warfare to anyone who attacked them? Figure it out.

InvertrevnI
04-19-2006, 11:18 PM
Basically, if the illegal Mexicans left then the US economy would fall.

But if all the mexicans came into the country, there wouldn't be enugh jobs. And if ilegal immigrants (ILLEGAL I say again) leave the country slowly, the econamy could adapt and change to fit this.

What I man to say is, we shouldn't let any more in, but we can let some of those who are already in stay. Only some, and slowly remobe them untill they wil come in legaly.

And as for the A-bombing, if your contry is attacked, what would you do?

boltAge
04-20-2006, 06:42 AM
That's the issue we're debating about right now, if you haven't realised. Much of the American economy depends on these illegal aliens, to deport them all at once would definitely hurt the economy pretty bad, but to allow them to stay isn't right either, if these people are allowed to stay, then more will want to come in and flood your country. There must be a better solution than either of these, but nobody seems to have come up with it yet.

Alonso
04-20-2006, 09:49 PM
But if all the mexicans came into the country, there wouldn't be enugh jobs. And if ilegal immigrants (ILLEGAL I say again) leave the country slowly, the econamy could adapt and change to fit this.

What I man to say is, we shouldn't let any more in, but we can let some of those who are already in stay. Only some, and slowly remobe them untill they wil come in legaly.

And as for the A-bombing, if your contry is attacked, what would you do?
I like the way your thinking...but remember lets say we do deport all the illegal Mexicans out and the economy starts to fall, dont you think the US wouldnt try to fix that problem. If the active population is small they just do soe migration thing. They ask people who want to come and work...its done by many countries tat need people to work. So we don't really need the Mexicans.

I don't really care for Mexicans. I have problems with Cubans down here in Miami with their "aross co' frejoles" and "el pan cubano, mang!"

Neo Emolga
04-24-2006, 02:56 AM
I like the way your thinking...but remember lets say we do deport all the illegal Mexicans out and the economy starts to fall, dont you think the US wouldnt try to fix that problem. If the active population is small they just do soe migration thing. They ask people who want to come and work...its done by many countries tat need people to work. So we don't really need the Mexicans.

I don't really care for Mexicans. I have problems with Cubans down here in Miami with their "aross co' frejoles" and "el pan cubano, mang!"

And you call me racist... >.>

I'm thinking its all about getting citizenship. If it was easier, then illegal immigrants would become legal and they would pay taxes and such like the rest of us do. I think it's the whole issue here...

InvertrevnI
04-24-2006, 09:24 PM
We have a decent system, but we let more people in from Ireland than Mexico. Plenty of flaws, one way top fix this is to reform the system.

SC, that is kind of racist.
NP, you're not racist.

bigdog
04-28-2006, 09:21 PM
on msnbc, there is news on the Spanish Version of the national anthem, and they said the title "Somos Americanos" means "we are not americans". But since I used the spanish to english translator, the title means "we are americans" which is a contradictory and stupid propaganda:mad: :mad:

InvertrevnI
04-28-2006, 09:25 PM
on msnbc, there is news on the Spanish Version of the national anthem, and they said the title "Somos Americanos" means "we are not americans". But since I used the spanish to english translator, the title means "we are americans" which is a contradictory and stupid propaganda:mad: :mad:
Maybe so, but it might be easier to understand what you mean if the post doesn't look like a SPAM post.
Use sentances and grammer when discussing a serious issue.
(Oh dear, I sound like a mini-mod)

Anyway, I conclude that ALL illegal immigrants should be deported slowly and in small numbers at a time. They can come back in LEGALY if the want to come here.

bigdog
05-01-2006, 11:58 AM
Maybe so, but it might be easier to understand what you mean if the post doesn't look like a SPAM post.
Use sentances and grammer when discussing a serious issue.
(Oh dear, I sound like a mini-mod)

Anyway, I conclude that ALL illegal immigrants should be deported slowly and in small numbers at a time. They can come back in LEGALY if the want to come here.

Then you tell me to use sentences and grammer. you cannot even spell sentence right, and i am one of the best spellers in school.STOP picking on me!!

Want me to reword, then

At MSNBC, I found out that certain people made a spanish version of the
Star Spangled Banner which on the poll voted 80% "rejection of assimilation",
which is dumb because under the first ammendment we have freedom of speech.And if we have freedom of speech, we can say,or sing the Star Spangled Banner in what any language we please.

Red.Falcon
05-02-2006, 08:50 PM
Don't we already have laws about Illegal Immigrants? Or did we forget about it, like we are forgetting about the 1st ammendment? Seriously, have you seen secret service people carrying peple out of Capitol Hill, and stuff like that because of someone speaking out? And doesn't that book about Barry Bonds using steroids (Game of Shadows)having a lawsuit against it?

Oh, illegal immigrants, riiight..... Yeah, I think they need proper paperwork and stuff like that first to get in.

InvertrevnI
05-02-2006, 10:15 PM
Don't we already have laws about Illegal Immigrants? Or did we forget about it, like we are forgetting about the 1st ammendment? Seriously, have you seen secret service people carrying peple out of Capitol Hill, and stuff like that because of someone speaking out? And doesn't that book about Barry Bonds using steroids (Game of Shadows)having a lawsuit against it?

Oh, illegal immigrants, riiight..... Yeah, I think they need proper paperwork and stuff like that first to get in.

We do have law, not enforced. If we wait another twenty years, this problem will be three times as bad. I found some interesting stats here (http://sorrel.humboldt.edu/~economic/econ04/immigrat).

Then you tell me to use sentences and grammer. you cannot even spell sentence right, and i am one of the best spellers in school.STOP picking on me!!

Want me to reword, then

At MSNBC, I found out that certain people made a spanish version of the
Star Spangled Banner which on the poll voted 80% "rejection of assimilation",
which is dumb because under the first ammendment we have freedom of speech.And if we have freedom of speech, we can say,or sing the Star Spangled Banner in what any language we please.

I wasn't picking on you, and THAT doesn't look like proper grammer. You missed several capitalizations in that sentence, and missed some end marks. I have to deal with typos sometimes, but I know how to spell these words. Look at your own sentences before you decide that I can't spell.

You can spell decently, but your grammer is another story. I do not mean any offence, but I think this is against what debate should be. I think debate should at least have proper grammer, if not spelling. I simply couldn't understand a word of that.

~Amen

Alonso
05-03-2006, 02:19 AM
Don't we already have laws about Illegal Immigrants? Or did we forget about it, like we are forgetting about the 1st ammendment? Seriously, have you seen secret service people carrying peple out of Capitol Hill, and stuff like that because of someone speaking out? And doesn't that book about Barry Bonds using steroids (Game of Shadows)having a lawsuit against it?

Oh, illegal immigrants, riiight..... Yeah, I think they need proper paperwork and stuff like that first to get in.
This debate is really heating up. The Mexicans have caused to much trouble.

EDIT: Deep inside the forum, a post in the middle of a thread is left unchecked!
THIS WILL NEVER BE FOUND!
If you do, PM me. If this is against the rules notify me. Technically, I'm not reviving a thread.

Thrall
05-03-2006, 12:46 PM
The Illegal Aliens aren't only mexicans though they're is abunch of other people from different countries coming into America.Well I'm going with Rayquaza why have laws if your not going to inforce them.If we release them all at once America is screwed and so would the Economy.America leaves them here America would be showing a sign of weakness and we wouldn't be inforcing the laws.

squirtle
05-03-2006, 02:57 PM
i dont know if it was already posted but mexico is decriminalizing weed, haroine, cocaine, ectasy, and a bunch of other drugs. they are allowing people to carry small amounts for personal use, so they can focus on the people who are trafficing it. so im sure a lot less mexicans will be coming to the US cause who would want to come to a country were its illeagal to carry drugs?

InvertrevnI
05-03-2006, 03:15 PM
It would only remove some of them. The reason they want to come here, is drugs Squirtle. They come for a number of other reasons. For example, free services they don't pay taxes for, or cheap, clean water.

Mexico isn't the worlds best place to live. with the enormous crime rates (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2659301.stm), it is hardly a nice place to be.

squirtle
05-03-2006, 03:38 PM
It would only remove some of them. The reason they want to come here, is drugs Squirtle. They come for a number of other reasons. For example, free services they don't pay taxes for, or cheap, clean water.

Mexico isn't the worlds best place to live. with the enormous crime rates (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2659301.stm), it is hardly a nice place to be.
i think you mean not because of drugs, and i know its not going to make all of them leave, but im sure some of them will.

InvertrevnI
05-03-2006, 03:48 PM
Not many I suspect, there are many better reasons than drugs to come here. It mght be nice if we enforced the immigration reform, but that hasn't been enforced since the 50's.

Red.Falcon
05-03-2006, 08:58 PM
How does the US guard the border anyway? A giant, 900-mile chain-link fance? Yeah, that'll keep 'em out... All you need is a sharp knife to cut through the fence! I wonder how many Mexicans acually went through the border legally? Hopefully more that illegally.

Alonso
05-03-2006, 09:29 PM
The Illegal Aliens aren't only mexicans though they're is abunch of other people from different countries coming into America.Even if the Mexicans aren't the only illegals, they are the majority. If, lets say, a small group of Colombians get in, they wouldn't really care at all. The real problem is that there are a LOT of Mexicans trying to get in everyday so there's your problem. And maybe they do take away the dirty jobs that the Americans don't want to do, but what if pretty soon they start to take those jobs that the Americans do want to do...never thought of that did you?
SC, that is kind of racist.
NP, you're not racist
Racist: believing you race is superior to another.
I am not racist against Cubans...just that some of their accents annoy me.

I take back what I said about NP, I just got pissed off because he did say somethings that I consider BS.

InvertrevnI
05-04-2006, 03:16 AM
How does the US guard the border anyway? A giant, 900-mile chain-link fance? Yeah, that'll keep 'em out... All you need is a sharp knife to cut through the fence! I wonder how many Mexicans acually went through the border legally? Hopefully more that illegally.

There isn't even a fence. THEY CAN WALK IN IF THEY WANT! Sc, I don't mind those accents, they probably hate yours too. Yes, all people have accents.

Alonso
05-04-2006, 09:53 PM
There isn't even a fence. THEY CAN WALK IN IF THEY WANT! Sc, I don't mind those accents, they probably hate yours too. Yes, all people have accents.
Mine? Why only mine if everybody has an accent?

They can't walk in on us most of the time because if some guy is traveling on a raft to Florida the Coast Guard will spot them before they arrive.

!CeMAn
05-04-2006, 10:57 PM
How did that "Mexican Strike" go :crackup:?
I heard it effected like 1 out of 3 businesses in some areas. Might wanna rethink locking that border, iMO...

Hypocrisy is Fun
05-05-2006, 12:32 AM
Native americans didn't lock the border to the four fathers. :ermm:

Red.Falcon
05-05-2006, 12:37 AM
Native americans didn't lock the border to the four fathers. :ermm:
I believe it's fore fathers. Like, 22 people signed the Declaration of Independence. But back on-topic, I think it's kinda stupid to not have any real protection on the border, besides on highways. I mean, it's like a police officer makes you stand in front of a store supplying somehting you NEED, and him saying he needs to go get some coffee, and tells you to not steal anything. The police offer, by the way is George "Dubyah" Bush.

Sixto
05-17-2006, 08:19 PM
Sorry if I bring this up, but I feel this issue is still going on with the speech Bush made 2 days ago.

Some people really said hurtful, not racist, but hurtful things in here. I'm not going to point fingers because you know who you are.

As you guys know, I am Hispanic, meaning my parents are MEXICANS. So what, don't be afraid. Mexicans just came here for a better life, because government is not bad. But the way people are talking about us, I wouldn't doubt it if some of them left, and I know it would make some of you guys happy.

My parents came to the United States 25 years ago, and yes they swam the Rio Grande, (which, oh yes, is a SPANISH meaning "Big River" and is official in Atlases and Maps) but now both of them are US Citizens. And I can proudly say that they don't speak very good english at all, but that's important to SOME, it's not to me. I don't mind translating, I speak both languages fluently and I'm proud to have been born here. Heck, I love America, especially my hometown Houston! Anyway, what's important is that they are citizens now and they can't take that away from them. I am proud they made a sacrifice to give us a better life. I love them to Death for doing that for me and my siblings. My dad owns his construction company now and my mom is a "housekeeper" (job that most mexicans do anyway) in a nursing home. I will never tire of saying how proud I am of them and thankful for everything they have done! I love them!

I have a lot of other feelings, but I won't write anymore because I know I can get out of control. This is enough for now.
I will leave a message though: All of you guys here are my friends, no matter what you said about the situation, you have the right to express your thoughts. I'm still going to be the same way I was before. All I am saying is that we are here to stay. So too bad, deal with it! Maybe you can even move away, I hear there is a lot of places to live in Mexico... :wink:

CHAMPION Victoria
06-02-2006, 02:28 AM
How did that "Mexican Strike" go :crackup:?
I heard it effected like 1 out of 3 businesses in some areas. Might wanna rethink locking that border, iMO...
It affected one in three businesses in low-income areas. That is to say, those areas which are composed mostly of illegal immigrants.

Most normal businesses were fine, the markets were fine, and if anything--the freeways were amazingly clear here in California. The 'day without an [illegal] immigrant' was a wonderful day to remember.

Mario: Glad you like the USA. I'd like to ask you a question though.

Is it fair that your parents could just swim a little river and then live here, while people in other countries--some of which are so poor that they make Mexico look like a paradise--have to wait YEARS to do the same thing?

Is it fair that your parents, until they became legal residents or citizens, would not pay any taxes and yet use government services that EVERYONE has to pay for, such as school systems or roads?

If all twelve million illegals had waited in line like everyone else and were paying taxes like everyone else, I doubt anyone would have a problem with it.

Y'see, it's not that we have a problem with Mexicans. It's just that Mexico is the place where most of these illegals are coming from, since it happens to share a border with the US. If Zimbabwe shared a border with us and dumped its poor people on us, we'd be upset too.

You know what's galling? To see millions of criminals on the streets demanding privileges they don't deserve, privileges that most normal folks aren't allowed. If those people had so much enthusiasm and political will, couldn't they use it to fix their own country. If Mexico had a good government, it could easily sustain its population. There is a tremendous amount of raw resources in Mexico--but it's not managed properly.

Instead of helping it's poor, the Mexican government would rather foist them on the US. It doesn't have to be that way, though. Mexico could become a prosperous nation if its people used their same energy and fervor to push their government as hard as they're pushing ours.

theEND
06-02-2006, 03:04 AM
So what are your thoughts on congress passing this law that Mexicans cannot freely pass into the US? I'll posts my thoughts once I seem some others.
Well can't you just go in front of the Canadian Border and jump from the USA Border to the Canadian Border and vice versa? Racists. The only things in life that have exotic jobs. Such as owning a Kwik E Mart.

InvertrevnI
06-02-2006, 03:11 AM
Well can't you just go in front of the Canadian Border and jump from the USA Border to the Canadian Border and vice versa? Racists. The only things in life that have exotic jobs. Such as owning a Kwik E Mart.
No, they have check stations in Canada, not many people even bother to do so. The reasons Mexicans are singled out, is that they are the majority. Victoria here explains it all.

@Victoria: You just landed the finishing punch, i'm convinced.

Matt
06-02-2006, 03:18 AM
Vicky is my new favorite member. Vick, your debate skills are superb, and you presented your side very well.

And NO ICE, I don't love her!

!CeMAn
06-02-2006, 03:49 AM
Well can't you just go in front of the Canadian Border and jump from the USA Border to the Canadian Border and vice versa? Racists. The only things in life that have exotic jobs. Such as owning a Kwik E Mart.
Last i heard, there weren't too many Canadians jumping the border and living illegally in the US.

Honestly, why would any want to?
:silenced:

Hypocrisy is Fun
06-02-2006, 03:50 AM
Precisely !ce, their money is worth more.

!CeMAn
06-02-2006, 03:54 AM
Precisely !ce, their money is worth more.
The Canadian dollar is worth less than the American one.

theEND
06-02-2006, 03:56 AM
Precisely !ce, their money is worth more.
It is? I suppose you have a "point" there.

HiF: Why are we at the point where the USA border ends and the Canadian Border begins?

CP: This reason.
*Pushes HiF to the Canadian side and he is arrested*

CP: It's not everyday you see a Chinese guy pushing a Mexican over to the Canadian side.

Hypocrisy is Fun
06-02-2006, 03:58 AM
Its not worth more? Woah, I could have sworn.

theEND
06-02-2006, 04:00 AM
Its not worth more? Woah, I could have sworn.
Actually now that you mention it, USA money is worth more. That's why you see the Canadian prices on similiar item products that say," USA: $9.00 Canada: $30.00"

I would admit the USA money has much more power.

!CeMAn
06-02-2006, 04:14 AM
Actually now that you mention it, USA money is worth more. That's why you see the Canadian prices on similiar item products that say," USA: $9.00 Canada: $30.00"
Um, it's not quite that different:
$5.99 US
$7.99 CDN

This is getting way off topic, children.

CHAMPION Victoria
06-02-2006, 05:28 AM
Though while we're on the topic of currencies, purchasing power parity is far more important than market exchange rates.

And if the above made no sense to you, then it's not a big deal anyway.

EaGuL
06-02-2006, 05:52 AM
So what, now weíre going to be in their debt forever more? I donít think so, Mexico was never the economical capital superpower of the world, before or after that. If youíre going to give something to one kind of citizen, give it to everyone. Donít entitle them to free hospital stays before giving it to everyone else as well. Donít entitle them to tax evasion without entitling it to everyone else. And needless to say, that kind of system would never work. Therefore, letting them get away with it will never work either.



Please, donít tell me how many times I might have lost a job offer due to companies wanting to be ďdiversifiedĒ rather than hiring the best worker. Donít tell me how many times I had to struggle to get a college degree only to find out it really doesnít too much to get you a job anyway. Not everything is fair but it has to be dealt with. If you give one group something, some other group is going to be unhappy about it. In this case, letís think about whatís legal. Illegal immigrants are not legal, so if the US allows it to continue without penalty, then people will starting thinking the same with other illegal activities. Letís legalize drug trafficking, speeding, and murder why donít we?

If they want to say here, then they need to seek citizenship. If anything, maybe the US should make citizenships a bit (not too much) easier to earn. If they earn it and work hard to live in the United States like other American citizens, then there should be no problem. But donít try and cheat the system, I donít see how that at all should be commendable.



The United States can not be the worldís police man. It can not be the punching bag that bleeds money. It can not be a place to terrorize so that money could be yielded out of ransom for the countryís security. And it can not be a place where people can cheat the social system by not following the law. How long ago was the west won? Almost around a hundred and fifty years ago. Youíre thinking too much into the past.

Mexico is not a US territory. Sure, there can be interaction, but for the most part, theyíre on their own. The US is NOT responsible for their economic state. The US is NOT responsible for every one of their problems. And furthermore, the US is NOT the caretaker of their people. If they want to come into the United States, get citizenship and stop playing games.

And lastly, donít take this to a personal level, thereís absolutely zero reason for it.

I pretty much agree with this guy, he seems to get all the right facts and stuff. But I also have mix feelings about this. As I agree with this, I also just think, as long as they learn English, let em stay :oops:

InvertrevnI
06-02-2006, 04:26 PM
I pretty much agree with this guy, he seems to get all the right facts and stuff. But I also have mix feelings about this. As I agree with this, I also just think, as long as they learn English, let em stay :oops:
And Taxes, I want illegal taxes! Okay, I think Vicky put a good amount of both fact and opinion. If they would pay their fair share of taxes, I wouldn't mind it at all. But realy, they're just taking over the USA as is. They want to change OUR language, OUR laws, OUR rights, and won't let those who were here first remain the majority. I have no problems with Mexicans, I have a problem with illegal mexicans.

Silver Dragonair
06-02-2006, 09:30 PM
Im 1/2 mexican, Im perfectly legal. Although my mother was an illegal citizen.

But I think that there should be a law. I mean when they pass into us freely, they are tresspassing. Then when they come in illegaly, the government spends money on them anyway. For their bunches of children.

But the reason they come here. Is

A. America is so close

B. We are the richest nation in the world

C. Taking advantage of freedom and Free education

so many other reasons. Those are just three big ones

Sixto
06-07-2006, 11:49 PM
It affected one in three businesses in low-income areas. That is to say, those areas which are composed mostly of illegal immigrants.

Most normal businesses were fine, the markets were fine, and if anything--the freeways were amazingly clear here in California. The 'day without an [illegal] immigrant' was a wonderful day to remember.

Mario: Glad you like the USA. I'd like to ask you a question though.

Is it fair that your parents could just swim a little river and then live here, while people in other countries--some of which are so poor that they make Mexico look like a paradise--have to wait YEARS to do the same thing?

Is it fair that your parents, until they became legal residents or citizens, would not pay any taxes and yet use government services that EVERYONE has to pay for, such as school systems or roads?

If all twelve million illegals had waited in line like everyone else and were paying taxes like everyone else, I doubt anyone would have a problem with it.

Y'see, it's not that we have a problem with Mexicans. It's just that Mexico is the place where most of these illegals are coming from, since it happens to share a border with the US. If Zimbabwe shared a border with us and dumped its poor people on us, we'd be upset too.

You know what's galling? To see millions of criminals on the streets demanding privileges they don't deserve, privileges that most normal folks aren't allowed. If those people had so much enthusiasm and political will, couldn't they use it to fix their own country. If Mexico had a good government, it could easily sustain its population. There is a tremendous amount of raw resources in Mexico--but it's not managed properly.

Instead of helping it's poor, the Mexican government would rather foist them on the US. It doesn't have to be that way, though. Mexico could become a prosperous nation if its people used their same energy and fervor to push their government as hard as they're pushing ours.
Yup, it's pretty much all fair. :wink:

Incongruity
06-09-2006, 02:29 AM
Hm, I don't know if I've said this already, but in my book, the US's southern border is the Mason-Dixon line =/


lmfao, I've just been reading this conglomeration of excrement-throwing, and I've realized how ridiculous it is. But the most ridiculous thing of all?

NP's persecution complex. You SERIOUSLY think YOU have LOST jobs to a MEXICAN? NO! Crackers are NOT the victims of affirmative action. http://opr.princeton.edu/faculty/tje/espenshadessqptii.pdf Chinks are the victims. If anything, THEY should be whining about how they've been losing jobs, college opportunities, and scholarships because of the corporations/universities' desires NOT to have the best possible faculty/class. You know why? Because if there was no affirmative action at all, nearly every kid at every good school would be of Asian ethnicity, and the white kids would be nearly all Jewish. Why? Because their iqs are clustered noticably higher than any other group. Non-Jewish whites are lucky they even have affirmative action, because unless Asians are kicked out of jobs, the large majority would have no chance in anything except politics, because we all know Asians can't lead nations without messing them up. Jk.