Sleep Talk TM

[koolcurtis]

If you don't know what is happening, then look at the questions thread in the general section.

Please write something as well as vote.

[Tamer San]

I think it should be changed:

1- Easier for refs and reffing ^^
2- Makes some sense

But I guess it should be 3 attacks (containing Rest if you have it) and the ref choose anyone of them randomly but each turn you use SLEEP TALK the user have the right to change the randomly chosen 3 attacks :tongue:

[Ierdar]

ML and Shroom have told me about it(just yesterday, lol), and I think it needs to be changed. =P Probably make it a lot easier for the refs and the trainer. =P

[Magare]

Like I said before. I'm against it. Sleep talk is not supposed to be as good as other "normal" moves because it is used when you are asleep and normally woundn't be able to attack...

[mlugia]

And like I argued, having a choice of 3-6 attacks instead of 20 is not making sleep talk anywhere as good as thunderbolt, and sleep talk was actually INTENDED to be usable while you're asleep. I'm not saying we should copy the game exactly and make it 3 attacks, but at the present rate where even attacks like Tackle and splash would be used by poor Gyarados, why bother sleep talking when you can snore? 40 power is a hell of a lot more use than a 50-50 chance of using a 70 power attack, for example.

So yeah, I'm pro change, and while I am arguing that for the benefit of having strategy in the URPG, Sleep talk should be toned down attack wise, I am and will be against the ability for players to choose sleep talk attacks on a turn by turn basis. I'd like to see the players choose the attacks on the first use, and that's the only attacks they can see sleep talk use for the rest of the battle.

Come on, sleep talking splash? Not even morons at any of the GSCRS games would have a moveset like that.

Edit, I'll post what I posted in the other thread here in case you guys don't read it.

I could so easily abuse the sleep talk tm if you change it to let you choose your moves. I would actually like people to put me asleep, and i could use rest and sleep talk for the whole battle. Your not supposed to have fun when ur asleep, so it's fine the way it is.

Since there isn't much happening in the court room, I'll start a thread there to continue this. I always like to see what others say there.

I understand your concerns, and I'm going to list my points as follows:

-> Moves are made to be abused. Thunderbolt and Flamethrower, for example, are often used over their high powered counterparts because it's all part of strategy. Sleep talk is a strategy in itself. Remember RBY? If you put something to sleep you've just won the match? Exactly. That's EXACTLY why GSC came up with sleep talk. Sleep talk became a strategy, a metagame symbol. You pick 2 attacks, you put in rest and sleep talk, and your pokemon becomes a fearsome tank. Why is that? Because the game willed it so. Part of the strategy of battle, for example, is abusing sleep clause. If I was battling, and I saw a pokemon send out a Jynx for example, I'd immediately send out my sleep talker, take the lovely kiss, switch out, and proceed to kill Jynx. That's strategy. My sleep talker can still survive because on my team, it's the fall guy to take a sleeper hit, it's my reliable resource against sleep moves. This is not RBY anymore. This is GSC. This is RS. This is a new age, where sleep is NOT supposed to be freeze.

-> I did not say ANYWHERE that the person would be able to choose what the move can do each turn. THIS is what I'm proposing:

Proposal for change
On the very First use of sleep talk, the user of sleep talk must specify 3 (I'm not insisting on 3, but 3 is the number in GSC, so I'm using it as example. I think 5 can work too, provided said pokemon have that many moves) moves that sleep talk will operate with, and this will carry on for the ENTIRE battle to the ref, private IM or not is up to them. It's fair, right? In a 3 vs 3, for example, my sleep talking Charizard is up against a venusaur, and I say "Ok, fire blast, flamethrower, ember" and then they send in a blastoise and I go "shiz, I'm screwed". It's perfectly reasonable, and it removes the chance of having sleep talk and going "CHARIZARD USED LEER!" and then "CHARIZARD USED SCRATCH! A WINNER IS NOT YOU!"

Logic: Strategy has not been lost, as you can see from the previous example. While the user does get to choose what to use now, he is still limited by the knowledge, both of his opponent and his own pokemon's ability. Raichu cannot suddenly fire blast because Venusaur came into play, for example. And if you've never seen the opposing player's complete lineup, then you're still hindered, having to call out an array such as "Flamethrower, Earthquake, Slash" on charizard, and then groan as your sleep talk chose slash to hit the incoming Golem, correct?

Summing it up:
Changing sleep talk is abusable to an extent, but it brings that extra bit of strategy to the URPG. I no longer can win any battle just because my Jumpluff uses Sleep powder and it hits and I have synthesis to cover the snore hits. Sleeping pokemon have to plan more carefully, it's no longer "Sleep, hit, hit, hit, hit, win" because your opponent might actually be smart.

Anyways, if you have any other concerns regarding this method of change, I'll be happy to field them.

[koolcurtis]

Moves aren't made to be abused. They are use to strategize with. With your reasoning, the protect and detect combo should be banned. Even though it is unfair for most, it is not all that bad. It's just that newbs don't know how to deal with it, and so that's why people figure out ways to beat it. The same can be done with sleeping. You just need to know what to do. In battles my opponent hardly ever puts me asleep without something just as bad happening to him. Usually I'll toxic them, or use a move that will avoid the slp move all together. See, you just need to research how to beat the move. If you put youself to slp, then you better prepare yourself. It shouldn't be sleep talks fault that you fainted cause you used rest. That rest helps you ALOT so why should you be allowed to have the advantage while ur alseep, you already gained full health and cleared any status problems. You also are only slping for 2 turns and you know the exact turn when u wake up.

[mlugia]

Moves aren't made to be abused. They are use to strategize with. With your reasoning, the protect and detect combo should be banned. Even though it is unfair for most, it is not all that bad. It's just that newbs don't know how to deal with it, and so that's why people figure out ways to beat it. The same can be done with sleeping. You just need to know what to do.
Well first off, there is no strategy called Protect and Detect, so whatever you're referring to, I really don't know.

If you mean the whole 100% evade thing, Protect's counter works off of Detects, as does Endure, so Protecting the first turn will cause Endure or Detect to only have a 50% chance of success in the second turn. Strategy? Not really, Nintendo did do a good job of making sure that doesn't happen.

In battles my opponent hardly ever puts me asleep without something just as bad happening to him. Usually I'll toxic them, or use a move that will avoid the slp move all together.
You're assuming I'm stupid. Toxic is laughable with the way URPG operates. Hell, Poison was laughable in GSC as well, with 90% of the standard metagame pokemon knowing rest as one of its 4 moves, and since URPG has no PP limit, Rest can be used indefinately to beat out toxic, so it'd be:
Sleep, get toxiced, kill sleeper, Rest halfway through, live again.

Secondly, Jumpluff has 318 Speed, iirc, making it the fastest sleeper in business with a 75% Sleep powder. Now, using said logic, why would you even try to pull a toxic on a Jumpluff with anything that is faster?

See, you just need to research how to beat the move. If you put youself to slp, then you better prepare yourself.
That's not what I'm arguing though. Are you saying if Darkmaster X, for example, lets his Jynx use Lovely Kiss and hits me, it's my fault for that? Sleep moves have been proven to be an unfair advantage. That's exactly what happened in RBY. And look what happened in GSC immediately?

- Sleep talk was introduced. (Ignore snore, snore has the power of scratch)
- Sleeping pokemon can now attack on the turn of awakening.

Even Gamefreak had to put in ways to make sleep at least bearable, and you're denying said methods by making Sleep talk senselessly useless. In this case, all I really need would be Ninjask baton passing to a Parasect, Spore, win. How many counters can you possibly think of that can counter said strategy?

It shouldn't be sleep talks fault that you fainted cause you used rest. That rest helps you ALOT so why should you be allowed to have the advantage while ur alseep, you already gained full health and cleared any status problems.
Tell it to Nintendo. Seriously. As well, Why should I not be able to do anything if my opponent puts me to sleep?

It's called strategy. You said it yourself. Rest talk is a strategy. Let us use strategy.

You also are only slping for 2 turns and you know the exact turn when u wake up.
Lovely kiss, Sleep powder, and other opponent-induced sleep will force the sleep status upon you between a duration of 1 to 7 turns. Now 1, handable, but 7? Come on, even if you have sleep talk 7 turns would be a challenge.

And to conclude, please find any problems you have with the proposal I have made in my previous post regarding how Sleep talk should operate, along with any logical reasoning that says my opponent is legally entitled to render me useless for 7 turns without fear of retribution in the name of strategy, aka 75% sleep moves or Speed Parasect.

I demand that everyone be given a fair chance in battle.

Sleep having too much power is not such a way to give power.

If it was, then there'd be Auto-freeze moves too. But there isn't. Even though flame wheel hits through freeze.

Ever wondered why?

Edit:
Upon a rereading of the post, I realize I might seem a little harsh and/or Hostile. I apologize beforehand, it was not my intention to sound either harsh or hostile. I will leave the post unchanged, because every point I wish to make is in it, but I will apologize if I have offended you in any way with this post.

[DarkMasterX]

I think it should change. I plan to get Sleep Talk for my Shuckle and with moves like Constrict amd Withdraw, there's a high chance that Shuckle will use a useless move during Sleep Talk and it will mess up my whole strategy. Otherwise, if there was only 3 attacks it could choose from then I could choose the 3 most useful moves it knows and have a great strat. Also picking 5 moves would be better than the 3 since you'd have more of a range of moves to change from yet you have less of a chance to land on the move you want.

[Magare]

First of all, he was talking about the Toxic/Protect/Detect "strategy". And he was right, you were wrong. Using Detect after protect doesnt make Detect's chances 50%. Its still 100%. In other words, when you're using Protect/Detect you cant be hurt.

You said Toxic was a bad move in the urpg. Excuse me????? Toxic is one of the best moves all together if used the right way... Oh and one other thing, URPG does have PP's, just that battles never last long enough to wear them off.

Snore is a good move too, on a right mon.

And for the last part. Jumpluff a killer? PLEASE. Jumpluff is just soooooooo good there are what, 2 of them in the entire URPG? If there is even 2 of them.

Sleeping moves were always good, but no one ever said they were unfair. And with sleep talk and snore around (the way they are right now) there is no need to change anything.

Oh and, just out of my head, Gengar, Jolteon and Alakazam can use Toxic on Jumpluff before he uses the sleeping move... And I'm sure there are many more of them.

[JohtoTrainer]

Mag is absolutely right....when u use Protect 100% acc then Detect 100% acc they don't take the acc down from eachother :tongue:

[mlugia]

First of all, he was talking about the Toxic/Protect/Detect "strategy". And he was right, you were wrong. Using Detect after protect doesnt make Detect's chances 50%. Its still 100%. In other words, when you're using Protect/Detect you cant be hurt.
Liar. Have you even tried it on the game carts? I have. And not roms, mind you, real carts, incase you were wondering. That's why Netbattle, GSbot, RSBot, and every respectable site out there such as Azure Heights, Metalloid Research and Gamefaqs tell you that Protect, Detect and Endure work off the same counter. Try it. Don't give me BS.

You said Toxic was a bad move in the urpg. Excuse me????? Toxic is one of the best moves all together if used the right way... Oh and one other thing, URPG does have PP's, just that battles never last long enough to wear them off.
That's not what I read. First off, Rest > Toxic. Secondly, do explain the right way. Thirdly, I wasn't aware that PP are in the URPG, from what I read in the read-first threads for the URPG.

Snore is a good move too, on a right mon.
Name 1.

And for the last part. Jumpluff a killer? PLEASE. Jumpluff is just soooooooo good there are what, 2 of them in the entire URPG? If there is even 2 of them.
Nobody said everyone here's any good at battling and strategy. Or else why would you guys be so afraid to change Sleep talk to how it would actually work in game?

Sleeping moves were always good, but no one ever said they were unfair. And with sleep talk and snore around (the way they are right now) there is no need to change anything.
Do you use scratch on a consistant basis? Will you please remove all moves above 40 power from your pokemon and expect to win your battles? No? Why is snore any different? You do 5% and the opponent rests it off, and laugh. Winner is you? Sleep talk is even more useless. As I have already stated above.

Oh and, just out of my head, Gengar, Jolteon and Alakazam can use Toxic on Jumpluff before he uses the sleeping move... And I'm sure there are many more of them.
Oh, just off the top of my head, Alakazam and Gengar can Ice punch if you were a good battler. Off the top of my head, Electrode, Aerodactyl, Mewtwo, Raikou, Starmie, Ninjask, Sneasal, Persian Dugtrio, Sceptile, Swellow, Crobat are all faster than Jumpluff, but notice how most of them can KO Jumpluff instead of wasting a toxic. Common sense says toxic does nothing to Jumpluff if your opponent doesn't suck. And in this case, I'm arguing about having an actually worthy opponent.


Off the top of my head, the Detect/Protect combo was proven false.... a few months after GSC came out, so you guys must be really behind on this.

[goofball14]

First of all, he was talking about the Toxic/Protect/Detect "strategy". And he was right, you were wrong. Using Detect after protect doesnt make Detect's chances 50%. Its still 100%. In other words, when you're using Protect/Detect you cant be hurt.


Sorry But you are wrong like Mlugia said Protect and Detect work off the same counter. IE Gengar used protect(100%) oppt. does whatever Gengar use Detect(its only 50% this time cause protect and Detect work off the same counter) so using protect and detect to avoid damage is impossible sorry so you are wrong :) If you dont believe me or Mlugia go test it for yourself on the cart

[mlugia]

http://www.angelfire.com/pa4/jman/protect.html

Anyways, I just would like to note that should any of the protection moves FAIL, then success rate is reset to 100% on the next turn. So Protect, if it fails, then Detect and Endure, along with protect, will have 100% success on the next turn again.

[goofball14]

Protection moves are put in the same category because of a couple of reasons. The first is that they do as named and somehow protect the using pokemon. They also do not work when used with Substitute. The most important distinction about the group of moves as a whole is that the accuracy of the moves decrease when used consecutively, this includes using a different protection move consecutively. The accuracy decrease percentage scale is as follows (starting with the first use):

As you can see/read or whatever "this includes using a different protection move consecutively.The accuracy decrease percentage scale is as follows." IE:Protect and Detect :)

[koolcurtis]

I think most of what u said trying to counter me is worthless. You seem like one of those people who will talk their head off and even though you seem to type alot and it seems convincing, but it's mostly not. I bet i could beat you if you would like to see how sleeptalk works the way it is. You seem to think i'll lose if i use toxic. You think there is no way to get around slping. You also think snore isn't good on anypkmn, when in fact it can kill you in 2 hits from snorlax(I'm not saying how, and they aren't critical hits either). Why not put ur words to action. I have so many ways to avoid sleeping and to deal with slping and I don't put them here cause i don't want newbs to see my strategies. You should battle me so I can show you what to do. I tell you that for one thing, people would be using recover as one of their sleeptalk moves and then the battle will go in favor of that mon so easily. Now you can post your story long response.

[mlugia]

I think most of what u said trying to counter me is worthless.
So sue me for making logical sense.

You seem like one of those people who will talk their head off and even though you seem to type alot and it seems convincing, but it's mostly not.
You'd have to explain, because I think I've backed up every one of my arguments with examples and logical reasoning. So I really don't see where you're coming from.

I bet i could beat you if you would like to see how sleeptalk works the way it is.
I wasn't aware the issue at hand was you vs me in a battle. The issue was whether or not we should change Sleep talk to reflect how it actually works.

You seem to think i'll lose if i use toxic.
I said Toxic is not as powerful as you jacked it up to be. There's a difference.

You think there is no way to get around slping.
I showed examples. RBY Slp was so powerful that Nintendo changed it for GSC, and so far you haven't shown me any logical and/or conclusive examples to illustrate your point.

You also think snore isn't good on anypkmn, when in fact it can kill you in 2 hits from snorlax(I'm not saying how, and they aren't critical hits either).
Belly Drum. Rest. Snore. I'm not stupid. But you must realize that the Drumsnorlax has been out of commission from the actual metagame of online battling since the early stages of GSC because it just doesn't work as well as other alternatives. Snore has how much power? 40? Correct. Now do you Belly drum and use scratch after? Of course not, that's just stupid, right? So why do you insist on saying that a 40 powered attack is the root of the metagame and keeps it in check by beating out sleep?

Why not put ur words to action. I have so many ways to avoid sleeping and to deal with slping and I don't put them here cause i don't want newbs to see my strategies.
Or, maybe, you're just not being very convincing, right? And notice how my lineup in the URPG has no sleep pokes, remember? If you'd let me use any pokemon I wish, I could.

You should battle me so I can show you what to do. I tell you that for one thing, people would be using recover as one of their sleeptalk moves and then the battle will go in favor of that mon so easily.
Isn't that the point of strategy? In GSC battles were long stallwars for that reason only, because people figured out how to take advantage of Rest. Are you changing how the move works because you don't like the metagame? If so, why are you making Sleep talk so bloody useless?

Now you can post your story long response.
Glad to oblige.


If you want me to put my skills to test, I'd gladly Netbattle you. Or URPG, but I don't have the required pokemon, so you'd have to let me use any poke I want. Also, You're dead wrong about Detect/Protect, a fact that you have yet to recognize.

I have no respect for people who don't recognize their errors and avoid the issue instead.

I also have no respect for people who don't use logic and actual examples in a logical debate, whether they're hiding behind a "OMFG I DONT WANT YOU TO KNOW MY STRATS" cover or not. Bush easily did it to Saddam. "OMFG YOU HAVE WOMD BUT I CANT PROVE IT CUZ ITS HIDDEN SO I WIN". I don't want that in the URPG, and I'm sure you don't either.

[Magare]

Also, You're dead wrong about Detect/Protect

Dont get me wrong. But you are a new ref. And if EVERY other ref says that Detect/Protect works, dont you think that you might be wrong?

[mlugia]

That depends, Magare. The thing I refer to is how it works in the games, if the URPG does not follow the rules of the game and wants to make Toxic the single coolest move ever, then I'd be wrong. But if the URPG's intention was to make the 2 moves work as they would in the actual game, then you guys are wrong. Take a pick.

also, after a long and pointless discussion with Curtis on AIM, of which the only thing we settled was that I'm wrong because he doesn't want to listen. (And I'm bad at battling, and that Raticate is supposedly a way to beat an URPG snorlax, but that turned out false. O_o)

I came up with something else regarding sleep talk

Alternative Proposal

Reasoning: Sleep talk is useless right now, but apparently you guys don't want to change it to how it would work in game. Curtis says that the URPG is not supposed to work like in game. Similar, but different. In other words, maybe Toxic is supposed to be the killer in this case, but I don't know. So, I'll propose this somewhat different method of using Sleep talk, but actually making it usable.

Changes to Sleep talk:
When sleep talk is FIRST used, the user can name up to 4 (3, 4, 5, whatever, I like 4) moves that his/her pokemon knows but does NOT wish sleep talk to talk. These 4 moves will carry on for the rest of the battle.

Logically: By allowing users some flexibility to use sleep talk, we eliminate times where Gyarados would lose to a... uh... meowth because sleep talk would only talk Splash, and meowth's Hypnosis lasts 7 turns, or stuff like that. This way, users become more involved in the strategy, because even though each pokemon still have like a gazillion different moves to use, at least the users are now able to cross out a few moves that no sane person would use either way, such as Tackle, Scratch, or Splash.

What do you think about doing it this way?

Although I prefer the first way, I'm offering alternatives. Not to be critical or anything, but head refs are supposed to make the URPG better, not shutting down suggestions because they don't have a way to counter the logic behind it and they want to save their own behinds when sleep becomes "weaker", however that logic goes.

Edit:
Just a note:

Curtis mentioned this:
Curtis thinks that newbies like me joining the URPG is ruining all the fun it used to be.

But look at the poll. Democracy in motion right there, more ppl would prefer that sleep talk be changed to make it usable than keeping it the same. Don't be conservative, be progressive!

[koolcurtis]

this is not a democracy. if it was then everyone would be moderator and there would be these polls up everywhere. Plus there have been cases overturned before. You haven't been here long enough to know that so :tongue: . I bet u'll make another long post after this cause u always have the last word, but ur not always right. If after all the time ur typing, u would see that this is the urpg, not netbattles. They aren't the same and u should have noticed that already, but u haven't.

The move says that you choose one of the mons move at random, so that is what should happen.

[mlugia]

Well first of all, you're avoiding the issue again. I'll bet you haven't even read any of my posts entirely and just posts because you want to be right. And you're not. Too bad.

Secondly, where does the move say that? IN GAME MAYBE? OMG WHAT IS THIS YOU ARE TRYING TO USE THE GAME AGAINST YOURSELF? Come on, if you're gonna use the game as your source and logic you're gonna be contridicting yourself pretty badly, since the first amendment would have been to make it like the game.

Also, don't be stupid. Why did you make this poll if this isn't a democracy? For fun? For the hell of it? To prove me wrong? If you were trying to prove that most URPG ppl agree with you, you lose.

And also, in case you don't know how courts work, appeals do sometimes change the original ruling :o that's why appeals are there. This is an appeal. If this gets overturned, more appeals will be made until you actually make some sense as to why the hell you're not even bothering to come up with good reasons to support your point.

And your argument is most pathetic in the way you keep referring to my long posts. Every point in my post is there for a reason. They add up. Long posts may not mean anything, but the reasoning is there.

Also, if the URPG is not netbattle, the URPG is not the game.

don't give me **** about how the game says this, the game says that.

And from tomorrow on, Razor leaf will have 100 power with a 100% CH rate, right? Because this isn't the game, this is the URPG, do whatever the hell you want.

[Magare]

I've read your talk with curtis. First, what I cant understand is the fact that you changed your move on the first turn and didnt let curtis to do the same on the second because "its wrong"? Umm, ok. Now, if I read right, even with curtis making 2 mistakes in the battle (which he did because you were typing too fast, it was hard to keep up with the battle just by reading it) your Snorlax was left at 2.5/10(or even less, I dont remember anymore). So the next fighting move used on him would probably KO him. And thats with you sending your move after Curtis every turn. Yeah, thats one Snorlax we cant allow to have un the URPG . You also said something about curtis not using his best mon against you. Tell me, in that almighty battling record of yours, how many battles did you have against fully evolved well TMed mons? :rolleyes:Please...

Now on the topic. I'd like to hear someone other than you say their opinion on why Sleep Talk should or should not be changed. Because from the people I talked to, most "older" members seem to like Sleep Talk the way it is.

And the last part, I get info's on attacks from this page: http://www.upnetwork.net/pvg/games/rs/attacks.shtml

And before you start flaming how that page probably has the wrong info, I checked the moves on 3 more pages and they all say the same thing about protect and detect:

Will avoid the enemy’s next attack. Chances of failure rise if used consecutively.

And thats all they say. No more, no less. Notice the word consecutively? There is no: Protect works for Detect etc...

[mlugia]

So you read my chat with curtis. good. you read this part?


Titanic Panda: I have a snorlax
Titanic Panda: in theory
Titanic Panda: now theorize beating it
kooolcurtis: i'll use raticate
Titanic Panda: ok, then?
kooolcurtis: toxic
Titanic Panda: Curse
Titanic Panda: or Yawn, your pick
Titanic Panda: Yawn would help me in the long run
Titanic Panda: but Curse can be beneficial now
kooolcurtis: so what will u choose?
Titanic Panda: and if you were playing RS, you wouldn't even be able to Toxic snorlax
Titanic Panda: let's try Yawn then
Titanic Panda: Snorlax might have trouble with an actual fighting type, but outside of that, he really doesn't have much of a weakness
kooolcurtis: let's start over, i wasn't looking at my moves to choose from
Titanic Panda: O_o
Titanic Panda: what happened to toxic?
Titanic Panda: but ok
kooolcurtis: substitute
Titanic Panda: ok, Let's Sub too


Where did I change my first move?

Next point of order: Seniority means nothing. 4-9 votes in favor of Change, and you bring up seniority? What if 9 votes voted in favor of keeping it the same? Is this everyone's URPG or the URPG for the 4 people in question? I don't care how many TM'd pokes I've beaten with Lax (I'm estimating 6-7), but if I can compile a 70-20 record with a team of Electrode, Exeggutor, Lapras, Tauros, Pinsir and Pidgeot, I'm going to say I'm damn decent at battling. At least, on Netbattle, you know, the one that goes straight to the game?

Now, Magare, regarding Detect/Protect.

The site is right, Protect and Detect will fail when used consecutively, but that's not the whole story, that's the description in Game.

for example
Wrap
Normal
For 2-5 turns, it wraps the enemy with its long vines or body and damages. Prevents opponent from switching until it ends.


This is what it says for Wrap on that page. Now everyone knows Wrap deals damage at the end of the turn, right? Obviously the game never mentions that, but it does, and you know it, I know it, everyone knows it. So the site is misleading because not the entire story is given to you.


Taunt
Dark
Angers the enemy. Makes them unable to do anything but damaging attacks.


Same thing here. Taunt only works for 2 turns, and then the effect is over, but the site, since it copies exactly what the game tells you, doesn't mention that.

Basically, you'd have to read between the lines. You could always go check on Metalloids, which is the site I've given, but then you'd just say I was showing you a fake site, like I would have done yours (hey, I didn't ;)), so I'd just tell you to try it out yourself. Get a pokemon with both protect/detect, and keep doing it in battle, while the second turn might not produce a fail (50% chance to fail after successful first use), if you keep doing it the chance would fall rather low, and you'd hit a "But it failed" message.

So yeah, try that out instead, since obviously you're not going to believe me when I show you metalloids, and stuff.

And on a side note, Magare, read the first page. People did post that they would like to see it changed...

Edit:
Ok, about the point you mentioned:
I said curtis didn't use his best mon and stuff.

Fact: Curtis was trying to prove that he can beat any snorlax with a raticate.
Fact: He lost.
Fact: He should have used something that could beat snorlax if he wanted to prove the point.
Fact: Curtis's reply when I questioned was "Because I thought you were stupid, and you are", or something to that effect. Read that part of the log please.

So next time, if you try to prove the point, please please prove it instead of making a fool out of yourself and then whining about how you lost because YOU didn't want to ref the battle so I had to post the stats just so that I know what the hell's going on.

And also, I think Curtis is a little afraid that if Sleep talk changed, his record might fall to 150-150 :o

[Magare]

I cant believe this. Please, read your last 5 replys. You wrote the exact same thing in all of them. You keep ignoring what curtis or I tell you and just write the same thing again.

Titanic Panda: let's try Yawn then
..............................................
.............................................
kooolcurtis: substitute
Titanic Panda: ok, Let's Sub too

Looks like a changed move to me. BTW, I had to reread this 3 times before I realised you really did change your move. I thought you were still with yawn just like curtis thought.


Besides us, only 3 people replied to this thread. 2 of them were for sleep talk to change, one was against it. A total of 13 people voted.

URPG HAS OVER 100 members

The last big case we had (I dont really remember what it was anymore) about 40-50 people voted. If people dont vote, it means they dont care. If people dont care, there is no need to change anything because there is no problem.

And one final thing. I dont know if you realise this, but changing sleep talk to the way you want it to be helps only the best trainers. It cancels out the small chance new trainers have of setting the better trainers mon to sleep and beating them while the mon is asleep. You dont like Curtis and he doesnt like you. We all know that and we all realise that. However Curtis is one of the top 4 battlers in the URPG. You dont stand a chance against him. Period. If sleep talk changes to what you want it to be you'll have even less chance of beating him.

About your netbattle record, for the last time, WE DONT CARE!!!!!!!. This is not netbattle and what you can or cant do there doesnt concern us. You got a thread somewhere on the forum where you can discuss that. This is the URPG! It only matters what you can do here!

And one last thing because I dont intend to argue with you anymore. Once again, there are something like 10 active refs in the URPG at this moment. All of them say Protect/Detect combo works. Think about it. Isnt there a chance you might be wrong? Now go ahead and write again how all the other refs should read between the lines...

[mlugia]

I cant believe this. Please, read your last 5 replys. You wrote the exact same thing in all of them. You keep ignoring what curtis or I tell you and just write the same thing again.

Titanic Panda: let's try Yawn then
..............................................
.............................................
kooolcurtis: substitute
Titanic Panda: ok, Let's Sub too

Looks like a changed move to me. BTW, I had to reread this 3 times before I realised you really did change your move. I thought you were still with yawn just like curtis thought.

Obviously reading "kooolcurtis: let's start over, i wasn't looking at my moves to choose from" was a little hard, so I'll teach you english. "Let's start over" means Let us start over, or basically, let us begin from the beginning. That means the battle will be reset, and any moves used before this line will be void. www.dictionary.com . Trust me, learning english will help you in the long run, even if you're sucking up.

Besides us, only 3 people replied to this thread. 2 of them were for sleep talk to change, one was against it. A total of 13 people voted.

URPG HAS OVER 100 members

The last big case we had (I dont really remember what it was anymore) about 40-50 people voted. If people dont vote, it means they dont care. If people dont care, there is no need to change anything because there is no problem.

But guess what? only 4 ppl are against, so that means no one cares enough to keep it the same. So let's change! make sense? Sure does!

And one final thing. I dont know if you realise this, but changing sleep talk to the way you want it to be helps only the best trainers. It cancels out the small chance new trainers have of setting the better trainers mon to sleep and beating them while the mon is asleep. You dont like Curtis and he doesnt like you. We all know that and we all realise that. However Curtis is one of the top 4 battlers in the URPG. You dont stand a chance against him. Period. If sleep talk changes to what you want it to be you'll have even less chance of beating him.

I never said I was changing Sleep talk to make me have a chance of beating Curtis. I want Sleep talk to be changed so that URPG would be similar to the game. Quote me where I said Sleep talk is supposed to help ME beat Curtis? Sleep talking Changing is called being logical. If URPG is supposed to base itself on the mechancis of the game, then you'd have to change Sleep talk, right? Also, I couldn't care less if Curtis was my mom. If something's wrong, I speak up. Which part of that is so hard to understand?

About your netbattle record, for the last time, WE DONT CARE!!!!!!!. This is not netbattle and what you can or cant do there doesnt concern us. You got a thread somewhere on the forum where you can discuss that. This is the URPG! It only matters what you can do here!
That's very nice. So you admit URPG isn't supposed to copy the game? Let's abolish HP, make Razor Leaf OHKO with 100% accuracy. Sounds reasonable to me. Just like you don't care about my Netbattle record, I couldn't give a damn if you're Flare, Figgy, Jack, Raik, or anyone who's been banned. I don't care if your record is 10000000-1 or 0-111111, I couldn't care if you're black, jewish, hitler, or all 3. I couldn't care if you wear panties, thongs, or have wild sex every night with elephants. I care about whether or not Sleep talk follows the game. If you don't want to make it follow the game, please come up with something other than "You're wrong because you're new to URPG and I'm older"

And one last thing because I dont intend to argue with you anymore. Once again, there are something like 10 active refs in the URPG at this moment. All of them say Protect/Detect combo works. Think about it. Isnt there a chance you might be wrong? Now go ahead and write again how all the other refs should read between the lines...
So if Bush, Paul Martin, Tony Blair, Chiraq all say 1+1 = 3, and only you say 1+1 = 2, you're wrong? Nope. You don't even play the games do you? Play it. Try it. That's all I am asking. Am I asking too much? I don't think so, for the sake of accuracy you'd be wise to try it. If you want to look as if you have no argument, by all means say all the refs agree with you, but Shroomish already pointed out in the Pe2k thread that she agrees with me, and considering we're the 2 refs who actually ref on a consistant basis while the rest of the active refs would be lucky to get 1 battle done a month, what does that say?



Seriously though

Stop sucking up

Try Detect/Protect/Endure (they all run on the same thing) on the game itself.

And stop making a fool of yourself because you don't want to try it.

[DarkMasterX]

I cant believe this. Please, read your last 5 replys. You wrote the exact same thing in all of them. You keep ignoring what curtis or I tell you and just write the same thing again.

Titanic Panda: let's try Yawn then
..............................................
.............................................
kooolcurtis: substitute
Titanic Panda: ok, Let's Sub too

Looks like a changed move to me. BTW, I had to reread this 3 times before I realised you really did change your move. I thought you were still with yawn just like curtis thought.

Well, by what I see, Curtis is the one that changed first. After he saw Yawn he wanted to start over.

Besides us, only 3 people replied to this thread. 2 of them were for sleep talk to change, one was against it. A total of 13 people voted.

URPG HAS OVER 100 members

That's because this section of the URPG is not very popular and no one even checks here. If you'd like to announce this thread in the URPG: General section and have everyone vote then be my guest.

The last big case we had (I dont really remember what it was anymore) about 40-50 people voted. If people dont vote, it means they dont care. If people dont care, there is no need to change anything because there is no problem.

No, what I see is that Curtis NEVER wants to be wrong and he is always bent over for you to kiss his ass so you won't get in trouble.

And one final thing. I dont know if you realise this, but changing sleep talk to the way you want it to be helps only the best trainers. It cancels out the small chance new trainers have of setting the better trainers mon to sleep and beating them while the mon is asleep. You dont like Curtis and he doesnt like you. We all know that and we all realise that. However Curtis is one of the top 4 battlers in the URPG. You dont stand a chance against him. Period. If sleep talk changes to what you want it to be you'll have even less chance of beating him.

About your netbattle record, for the last time, WE DONT CARE!!!!!!!. This is not netbattle and what you can or cant do there doesnt concern us. You got a thread somewhere on the forum where you can discuss that. This is the URPG! It only matters what you can do here!

Well guess what? Curtis is one of the top 4 URPG Battlers? WE DON'T CARE EITHER!!!!!! I find it pathetic that Curtis copies moves like Drumlax and claims them as his own and says everyone who has a Snorlax just copies him.

And one last thing because I dont intend to argue with you anymore. Once again, there are something like 10 active refs in the URPG at this moment. All of them say Protect/Detect combo works. Think about it. Isnt there a chance you might be wrong? Now go ahead and write again how all the other refs should read between the lines...

Hhave you even asked the opinions of the other Refs? Or are you just assuming they agree the Protect/Detect combo works? I'm pretty sure Shroomish knows the Protect/Detect combo does not work. Maybe because she actually KNOWS what she's doing. I'd like you to try the Detect/Protect combo on NetBattle or on any official game to see if it works.

So far, all I've seen is Curtis acting like a child by refusing to be wrong even though 9/13 people say to change the Sleep Talk move. Also, you are backing up Curtis with no actual reasonable response, you just want to stay on the good side of the big bad mod.

I doubt someone like you who relies on Toxic + Protect + Detect in a gym battle to win, when in reality your plan would fall through and you would not survive that battle, should try and argue against people like Mlugia who know what they are doing about how to battle.

EDIT: I also don't understand why Curtis is complaining about Mlugia's long posts. That just shows that Mana is serious about this issue. Maybe Curtis' brain hurts too much when he starts to read long words?

[Shroomish]

I don't really wanna get into the Sleep Talk debate. I'm kind of neutral on it.. But, I do want to point out that MLugia IS right about Toxic - Protect - Detect.
I'll admit, I used it a couple of times on my Houndoom because I didn't know. But, once I learned better, I stopped useing it.
Proof? I tested it this morning. I gave my Sceptile Protect and Detect, then battled. I Protected, Worked, I Detected, Failed. I did this a few times, actually. Sometimes both would hit but still, the point is, that combo isn't 100% accurate and refs need to realise that.

That's all from me.

[Magare]

Meh, me again.

No more talking about Protect/Detect. Make a new thread and discuss it there.

X, until now I had a high opinion about you. If you really think I said everything I did just to suck up to Curtis then you completely lost all the respect I ever had for you. And about me using Protect/Detect in my gym. Almost every good trainer knows a way around it. Especially in a gym battle where you pretty much know my mons. Its used by a lot of trainers. I dont see the problem. And just for your information, I won only 2 battles with that and the number of people who won my badge is still very, VERY low. I wonder why YOU didnt challange me if I can be so easily beat :rolleyes: ?

I'm not even going to respond to mana's flaming.

And mana. I did play games. I completed ALL of them. Even the chinese rom of fire red.

And this is really my last reply here....

[koolcurtis]

wow, mlugia is even worse than riak. I'd rather have him back than u. I see now that all u want to do is power up ur snorlax and make trouble here. Your gonna want to change sooooooooo much here and eventually want to make this place netbattles.

X wrote that he thinks mlugia writes sooooooo much cause hes passionate about this so much when in fact he doesn't know when to shut up. Since you read our thing X, didn't u see that he wrote 5lines in a row for every 1 line of mine. He also talks sooooo much trash that it's beyond annoying. I just have one thing to say to mlugia.

I say this for the better of the group.
PLEASE LEAVE THE URPG

We have no place for people like you here. You will take this group down many notches. If I were pokemonelite you would not talk this way to me and since I'm a moderator you should show some respect, but you do not. Even though this is a debate, you have continually gone beyond the borders and have insulted me many times over and over again and the refs and how this group works. You always talk of netbattles, so take ur ego somewhere else. You would probly change the name from urpg to nb(netbattles)rpg. I wouldn't miss you one bit. I have never hated someone as much as I HATE YOU.

[mlugia]

Magare: I respect the fact that you have played the game. That is why I'm saying to solve the whole Detect/Protect issue, all you have to do on your side is to try it out a few times, keep using protect/detect/protect in a battle, and see if it actually lets you be protected forever, or if detect/protect can actually fail. Actually, this can also happen with Endure, so to be comprehensive, you might want to test that out too.

I know my word isn't very strong because we don't know each other, that's why I'm suggesting you try it out, because I have on my side and it does work as I have said.

And I'm too lazy to make a thread, but I'll bring it up next time I have something to say in the Comments thread.

Edit: Curtis:

- Don't worry, I don't want to have wild and sexy nights with you either.
- Secondly, remember how our conversation in IM? Where you said I suck at battling because I won?
- You've never ended up proving your side of the argument. I know that you don't want to change sleep talk because it's always been like this, but I've suggested many reasons as to why you should, because the original intention, or so I'm told, is for the URPG is to be like the actual game.
- I have NOT insulted how this group worked. I have QUESTIONED how the group worked because I was told that URPG was supposed to be extremely similar the game, which explains the effort with the damage calculations and such, but you continually refuse to listen to the game because... well, the only reason I've seen so far is that a) Sleep talk would be used more, and b) Because it'd benefit the newbies. Now I ask you: How would changing sleep talk to make it work a bad thing?

And no, I don't plan to leave the URPG. I think you should really look at yourself and your behavior before replying again.

And also, see how Protect/Detect doesnt work? You guys gotta fix that. Also make up something for Magnitude, Multi hit moves, and so forth.

[flareon008]

Sorry but I disagree. It's been fine the way it has been. I see no use in changing sleep talk when it has never caused a problem in the first place. This isn't real life. You typing out attacks, is that actually getting mor realistic? It's staying the same.

[mlugia]

Where did real life come from? Pokemon is a game. I was suggesting Sleep talk's change because I was told the URPG wanted to be similar, if not almost exactly, the same as the game.

And you really don't have to apologize for disagreeing.

I would then suggest the following:

1) Make a thread in the General part and in big bold letters (and sticky), Emphasize that the URPG has no intention of following the game.
2) In that same thread, point out EVERY single move that does not operate as it does in game.
3) Beneath each move, explain the differences between the move's operation in game and the move's operation in URPG.

Thank you.

(Also, I couldn't give a damn if you guys change it or not, but don't say the URPG is a valid battling tool if you don't change the moves. Because that was the problem with getting Netbattle into the war, and todd knows I've fought hard against that and got Netbattle into the war, hrhr.)

Also, I would like the following:

A declaration that Protect/Detect/Endure works MY way in game. I don't give a flying damn if you guys keep it different in the URPG, but you guys are so wrong it's not funny about its operation in game, and you guys need to recognize that, and admit that you are wrong about its operation in game.

[Jack of Clovers]

mlugia:
"...and since URPG has no PP limit..."
all moves have PP limits and all refs should know this.

-protect/detect/endure: these are all the same moves and will decrease in accuracy when used consectutively. i don't know why this is being brought up now, as i thought everyone knew that already 'cause it was discussed before the move to forums and once at the last forum. end discussion here.

-mlugia/curtis: the way you two are arguing looks like a presidential race, mud-slinging everywhere. calm down. i want each of you to look at the opposing view, find ONE action that you can agree with. if you can't do that, you shouldn't be arguing.

-mlugia: watch the swearing that one time up there. pe2k doesn't appreciate that stuff anywhere, even if he doesn't always check the URPG. and please, try to respect a mod, no matter how you feel.

-curtis: yes, you are mod but that doesn't mean you can say what you want when you want. even the president must watch what he says 'cause it might come back at him later.

-everyone: if you are angry, upset, whatever towards another person, don't take arguments to the forum (as stated in the RULES). go to a mod/leader or argue it on messenger but do not use messenger chats to blackmail or prove cases. URPG is a fun place and we don't need that stuff posted here.
_______________________________

i did have a long discussion here but lost it all when the forum asked me to log in again......................................... dang it! glad i CTRL-C that part up there. :goofy: so instead of trying to resay what i had written, here's my summary.

The URPG follows the game as best as it can and there are only some minor changes. While we try to copy everything, there are some things URPG related that conflict the game. Sleep Talk is one of them. Sleep Talk uses 3 moves while in URPG it can do 20+ moves. the real question is: is this fair? well, for as long as the URPG has been running, this moved hasn't been questioned until now. does that mean it won't change? .....
there are 4 ways to deal with sleeping: wait to wake up, Snore, Sleep Talk, and Pokeflute. most people don't want to wait and most battle w/o items, so we are left with Snore and Sleep Talk. Snore is an attack that always hits and can flinch, while Sleep Talk is a random attack which could be better or worse than Snore. If Sleep Talk chooses 3-4 moves in the URPG, then it will always, in most situations, be better than Snore. Snore can't be ignored.

Sleep Talk is a gamble move here at the URPG. everyone takes the same gamble when using this attack, doesn't matter what Pokemon. Sleep Talk will randomly select any one of the Pokemon's moves here at the URPG.

this is not netbattles, far from it. while the URPG is game related, a few parts can't transfer here. there are also different strats for the game than the URPG, you just have to find them.

i have gone back and edited some things out. there will be no more personal arguments against people here, the thread can be locked. if anyone has anything to say about the issue at hand, go ahead.

~Jack~

[mlugia]

Thank you very much Jack.

First off, I'd like to apologize to Magare and Curtis if my words have offended or hurt you in any way. I will admit my conduct was questionable when I was uh... pissed off. That's the word.

Also, thank you Jack for the clarification on the issues at hand. And I promise I won't bring up these things again... until I see something else :p

But out of curiosity, what do you think of the idea to let the user of sleep talk to choose 2-3 moves that he or she does NOT want to sleep talk? Eg: tackle, explosion out of like a repetoire of 20 moves?

[flareon008]

EXPLAINED DONE.

We're stopped beating the dead horse. Let it rest and go back home.

Titanic Panda: well, glad to see the whole issue is resolved

even though my speechs are never as long as your lep, good summary. The words ULTRA IS A VALID BATTLE SYSTEM have NEVER been spoken from my mouth.

Thank you good night

*locked*