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View Full Version : The Patriot Act II: A clear sign of the erosion of democracy in America


Alakazam
10-27-2004, 11:06 PM
The "Unifying and Strengthening of America Act" a.k.a. the 'Patriot Act II' has now been passed, taking away even more rights than were revoked in the first Patriot Act. Some of the new rights the US government has are as follows:

-An Amercian's citizenship can be revoked if any of their behaviors / activites are deemed to be 'terrorist' in nature by the government.

-Legal permanent residents living in the US can be deported instantaneously, without arrest or charge.

-A citizen DNA database is in the works, where DNA samples can be obtained WITHOUT a court order. Anyone who refuses will be fined $200,000 and jail time.

-Wiretapping is allowed for any means of communications...yes, that means the government can monitor your phone conversations, read your e-mails, and read your instant message and chat conversations, and all without a warrant

-Secret arrests are now legal, where the government can make an arrest without a charge, and they don't have to release any information about the whearabouts of the detainee until a charge is brought up.

-There are now no such thing as 'illegal searches'. In other words, immunity is granted to a police officer who conducts an illegal search if they were following orders.

-American citizens can be subject to secret surveillance by the US government on behalf of other governments, even dictatorships.

-And, all of the 'sunset provisions' from the first Patriot Act (that stated that the powers granted by the Patroit Act would be dissolved in 2005) were erased.

---

Alright, so lemme get this straight: Uncle Sam could watch me in my home without my knowledge, read my mail, e-mail, listen to my phone conversations, and come and arrest me in the middle of the night. If I refuse to give my DNA, since there is no charge, I get fined and thrown in jail. If my mother calls the police asking where I am, she doesn't have that right.

And, with Bush's "You're either with us or with the terrorists" motif, the above scenario could come to pass for speaking out against the government / the War on Terror with your friends or family, in an e-mail...or even on a forum! *runs from a tank sent by Bush to squash Brian's "terrorist" ideology*

Comments? Concerns? Uncontrollable rage?

Agent Orange
10-28-2004, 12:03 AM
Oh my god....this country has gone to hell....I'm afraid to speak my mind now, this is like some big brother sci fi movie...

Zenaku
10-28-2004, 12:22 AM
Oh my god....this country has gone to hell....I'm afraid to speak my mind now, this is like some big brother sci fi movie...
Shh! The government could be listening at this very moment... I bet they already know my plans for world takeover as it is... But thankfully, the new rights are only for America (All us British/European evil genius's can sleep safe at night).

I can't believe Bush, to be honest (Even though I am British). His stupidity crosses the borders of America, and can clearly be seen by anyone in a foreign country. Despite my lack of religious morals, I pray that he does not influence other countries to take the same approach to terrorism. Also...

Concerning the "Sunset provisions" being erased; does that mean that those laws are to stay in America? Even after terrorism is abolished (If/when that ever happens)? Or have I just misunderstood? Either way, such a thing is unfair. If they do monitor everything however (Such as message boards) then it is not just America they are monitoring; they would be monitoring the entire world, without written consent. It's apalling how Bush could think of such an invasion of privacy into Americans- nay, the worlds lives.

JohtoTrainer
10-28-2004, 12:37 AM
XD Do, you really think terrorism can ever be abolished? cause if you think so you insane lol

ANd most of the is NOT unfair. I mean if someone is partcipating in terrorist activities why shouldnt their citizenship be taken away? And concerning the E_mail and computer thing, do you know what the number one way terrorists living in america communicate? Yea, that's right INTERNET.

Zenaku
10-28-2004, 01:08 AM
XD Do, you really think terrorism can ever be abolished? cause if you think so you insane lol

ANd most of the is NOT unfair. I mean if someone is partcipating in terrorist activities why shouldnt their citizenship be taken away? And concerning the E_mail and computer thing, do you know what the number one way terrorists living in america communicate? Yea, that's right INTERNET.
Thus why I mentioned "if/when it ever happens". I very much doubt so. And also, to argue with that...

"-Secret arrests are now legal, where the government can make an arrest without a charge, and they don't have to release any information about the whearabouts of the detainee until a charge is brought up."

Is it really fair to arrest someone when a charge is unconfirmed? According to the act, they can be arrested without reason (Or so I interpret it), and a reason doesn't need to be given right away. If they suspect anyone, then you're arrested, no questions asked.

Also, for e-Mails and the like... Out of the millions of people that communicate over the Internet, why should the majority have their privacy invaded because of 1 or 2 people? The internet, phone calls, and such, are meant to be as private as talking face to face. Some people don;t want others to know what they're talking about since it might be personal. Do you really want someone you don't even know reading a very important chat with a friend? I think not.

Alakazam
10-28-2004, 01:24 AM
Yes Kamon, that's right. These laws are here to stay. :silenced: :eek: :confused: :susp: , even after terrorism is gone (even though I agree such a thing will never come to pass)

XD Do, you really think terrorism can ever be abolished? cause if you think so you insane lol

ANd most of the is NOT unfair. I mean if someone is partcipating in terrorist activities why shouldnt their citizenship be taken away? And concerning the E_mail and computer thing, do you know what the number one way terrorists living in america communicate? Yea, that's right INTERNET.

No, no, no, JT. You don't understand. I agree that revoking citizenship of terrorists isn't a bad idea, but the scary thing is that no charge has to be filed. In other words, people who aren't acutally terrorist could easily be affected by this, since Bush and his government are the ones with the authority to declare someone a terrorist. They don't have to have any proof!

And like I said before, with Bush's whole BS "You're either with us or your a terrorist", it's very plausible for people who aren't terrorists but speak out against the government can be affected by this. It could easily be used for political gain.

Besides, how much further will this go? How many more of our freedom will we have to give up for the "war on terror"?

Matthew
10-28-2004, 05:59 AM
You got to be kidding me!!! I can't beleive that a second Patriot Act has been passed.... I was fine with the first one, but this one is going too far... yeah yeah, I agree with its intentions... but that Act is contradicting the Constitution... and you can only do that by ratifying another amendmant... or so I thought... It is too my knowledge that by constitutional law... that law enforcers are required to have a Search Warrant in order to search and seize property... bah.... this stupid Act is going too far... meh... and it can be interpreted that it is also violating the ninth amendmant in which it says that one has so many rights that they can't all be written... privacy being part of it.... gah.... this ticks me off!

Zenaku
10-28-2004, 05:25 PM
Yes Kamon, that's right. These laws are here to stay. :silenced: :eek: :confused: :susp: , even after terrorism is gone (even though I agree such a thing will never come to pass)
Now that really is terrible. Although maybe a "sunset provisions" wasnt included as Bush himself doubts truly stopping terrorism? After all, terrorism will always exist, so Bush could use such as an excuse to keep this new act in power, without direct opposement, or protests; as long as it is 'for the good of the country' at least.

Tell me... If someone other than Bush won the election (Say Kerry, for example), would they then have the power to revoke the new act that has came to pass, or is it permanent no matter what?

Alakazam
10-28-2004, 09:07 PM
Tell me... If someone other than Bush won the election (Say Kerry, for example), would they then have the power to revoke the new act that has came to pass, or is it permanent no matter what?

Hmm...that's a good question. I'm sure it could be done, but as long as people think that's it for the good of the country, it would be VERY difficult to get a majority vote to repeal it... :silenced: :silenced:

JohtoTrainer
10-28-2004, 10:27 PM
I think it's against the law to change it. But hey, maybe not :tongue:

Lord Celebi
10-30-2004, 02:36 PM
Now I've figured out Bush's stupid (Yes, Secret Service dudes, STUPID!) plan.
He's been watching too much Star Wars and is gonna turn the US into the Empire like Palpy by revoking our rights and geting Emergency Powers. I'm sure Bush must of hired the terrorists to create 9/11. The rest just follow Osama *coughNeimodianscough* thinking its real.

Now Secret Service people, quit, quit your evil paymaster!

Oh yeah, Kerry/Edwards '04!

At least is doesnt say they can get someone's IP without going to court. If he did, I would have to leave, blow up my computer, and move to Canada.

Agent Orange
10-30-2004, 03:41 PM
I'm pretty sure he CAN get people IP adresses...I mean, if a mod of a forum can, the president of the united states sure can. And Rust, bush may be dumb, but do you REALLY think he would kill thosands of his own people and blow up our nations Trade Centers? I doubt it.

Jack of Clovers
10-30-2004, 07:10 PM
sounds like Big Brother has arrived 20 years later. nevertheless, it's here and the American public can't do too much about it. hopefully, it won't end up like the book.

hint: read 1984 if you don't understand where im coming from. there is a movie also. both are good.

i still have my first amendment rights, we all do. terrorism has corrupted the minds of our government into thinking we are all terrorists. not even our own government can trust us anymore.
if this is the start of our government downfall, its funny to think that one person beat an entire country. :confused:

~Jack~

Lord Celebi
10-30-2004, 07:14 PM
I'm pretty sure he CAN get people IP adresses...I mean, if a mod of a forum can, the president of the united states sure can. And Rust, bush may be dumb, but do you REALLY think he would kill thosands of his own people and blow up our nations Trade Centers? I doubt it.
I mean as in getting their identity too.

Also, I told my dad about the Patriot Act 2, and he said the Patriot Act 1 wasn't a law anymore cuz it broke amendment rights.

Alakazam
10-30-2004, 09:27 PM
I mean as in getting their identity too.

Also, I told my dad about the Patriot Act 2, and he said the Patriot Act 1 wasn't a law anymore cuz it broke amendment rights.

The Patriot Act IS unconstitutional, but I haven't heard that is doesn't exist anymore. Where did he here that from?


And Jack, you're absolutely right. They should have a reprinting of 1984 and call it "George Orwell's 2004". >_<

Lord Celebi
10-30-2004, 10:11 PM
The Patriot Act IS unconstitutional, but I haven't heard that is doesn't exist anymore. Where did he here that from?


And Jack, you're absolutely right. They should have a reprinting of 1984 and call it "George Orwell's 2004". >_<
I'll ask him when he comes back to my house.

Matthew
10-31-2004, 01:44 AM
You got to be kidding me!!! I can't beleive that a second Patriot Act has been passed.... I was fine with the first one, but this one is going too far... yeah yeah, I agree with its intentions... but that Act is contradicting the Constitution... and you can only do that by ratifying another amendmant... or so I thought... It is too my knowledge that by constitutional law... that law enforcers are required to have a Search Warrant in order to search and seize property... bah.... this stupid Act is going too far... meh... and it can be interpreted that it is also violating the ninth amendmant in which it says that one has so many rights that they can't all be written... privacy being part of it.... gah.... this ticks me off!

I already explained why this is unconstitutional for those who had missed it.

Tamer Marco
10-31-2004, 01:42 PM
This is bullshit... total bullshit... I showed this to my mom, and all she said was that this is the way 'New America' works.

Alakazam
10-31-2004, 02:25 PM
This is why we need to get rid of Bush. How much farther will he go? I don't think I ever want to no.

JohtoTrainer
10-31-2004, 03:49 PM
What are you people worrying about? So what if they read our e-mails they come on into my e-mail box. Unless you're planning terrorist activities or sumthin :rolleyes:

Zenaku
10-31-2004, 05:03 PM
Well Zam, that all depends how gullible the majority of voters are on Tuesday. Bush may be an idiot, but he is persuasive; this can be seen in all his supporters. If they don't realise how much he's changing America - for the worse - then you might be stuck with him longer than hoped for.

Some might vote for him merely because they do not truly understand, or realise, other candidates views. Maybe they have been fooled into thinking Bush was doing what is good for the world (And yes, I mean starting a War that was unwanted, and had no true meaning). Maybe they're just... Well... Idiots. The minds of humans are far too complex and varied; each has a different view. Hopefully, however, that view will be "Bush, the idiot" for most.

Alakazam
10-31-2004, 07:41 PM
JT > Because it's up to the govenment what a 'terrorist' activity is. In other words, they cold easily abuse these powers to be used for political gain against someone who they say is a terrorist, but actually isn't at all. They don't have to have any evidence. That doesn't bother you?

Kamon> Yup, pretty much. I hope that the release of the bin Laden tape doesn't affect the already delicate balence of this election.

Also, please don't tell me that you're saying that all people that are voting for Bush are fools. Just because we don't believe in him, doesn't mean that they don't think what he's doing is right. I truely think that Bush thinks he's doing the right thing; it's a worldview that I cannot fathom, nor does it appear that you can either. I'm just saying "don't assume that views that we don't understand are inferior"

Matthew
10-31-2004, 09:49 PM
Meh... I don't think you should be worrying about it any way unless you are planning any terrorist attacks.... though it sucks that they have to take these measures, I can care less becasue I know that they aren't gonna find anything that is illegal in my box because I don't take part in that.... I guess it is annoying... but I don't care.

Alakazam
10-31-2004, 10:40 PM
Meh... I don't think you should be worrying about it any way unless you are planning any terrorist attacks.... though it sucks that they have to take these measures, I can care less becasue I know that they aren't gonna find anything that is illegal in my box because I don't take part in that.... I guess it is annoying... but I don't care.

I'm not worried about these new laws affecting me personally, but it enrages me that the government would violate the constitution like this. It's leading us down the slippery slope to fascism. Give the gov't an inch, and they'll take a mile.

Kenny_C.002
11-02-2004, 12:13 AM
I'm not worried about these new laws affecting me personally, but it enrages me that the government would violate the constitution like this. It's leading us down the slippery slope to fascism. Give the gov't an inch, and they'll take a mile.

It's always been like this. How did you think Hitler came into power?

Agent Orange
11-02-2004, 12:42 AM
I am not really worried about it, as I am no terrorist, but the fact that the goverment can call anything a terrorist activity, storm in and arrest the person...and thanks Ken, its reeealy reassuring to see our president do something Hitler did...>.>

ashkelon
11-02-2004, 01:59 PM
It's always been like this. How did you think Hitler came into power?

Oh, amen Brother!

Between the Bush Dynasty (which started it's rule under the facade of Rubber Ronnie), we have become a country where personal freedom is endangered, and the ones with power? May the richest corporation win.

It's corrupt as F***K.

It's trivial (to most people) but telling, that a town a few miles from me just passed a law that bans dogs over 100 lbs, or you have to cage them, carry exotic animal-type liability insurance and keep them on a 4 ft leash with a muzzle at all times.

Did some kid get mauled? Is some irresponsible person raising killer omen dogs on main street? Nope, the city's insurance company refused to renew the city's policy if they didn't pass the law :sad:

When I was a kid, anybody would've thought such an infringment of personal property rights would've been laughable.

As laughable as thinking something like the "patriot act" would've been passed. <What a freakin' scary-ass name, huh?>

Zenaku
11-02-2004, 02:15 PM
Also, please don't tell me that you're saying that all people that are voting for Bush are fools.
Actually, no. What I mean by idiots is that many will vote for him purely due to the fact that their family may be voting for him also. There must be plenty of voters that do not know anything about politics, I'm sure. Practically giving away votes, really.

Also, I hope none of Bush's relations have anything to do with the votes this time around...

Dragonair
11-02-2004, 02:24 PM
I find it ironic that while the Bush administartion's trying to set up democratic states in Afghanistan (sp?) and Iraq, they're tearing down democracy at home.

Ierdar
11-02-2004, 03:22 PM
I see the reason for the title....

And...this is complete ****. >=\ Guess I'm a terrorist and always was, because I've never been with the freaking government. Though, I don't approve of what the terroists do either. *rolls eyes*

So, bye bye to our half our legal rights, eh? =\ Psh, how stupid is this? -_-


*takes out rage on NB n00bs*

Alakazam
11-02-2004, 04:23 PM
Actually, no. What I mean by idiots is that many will vote for him purely due to the fact that their family may be voting for him also. There must be plenty of voters that do not know anything about politics, I'm sure. Practically giving away votes, really.

Also, I hope none of Bush's relations have anything to do with the votes this time around...

Alright, good...just making sure. I know what you mean, and concur.