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Techno Treecko
02-17-2005, 02:03 PM
This is basically a continuation of the “Is God real?” thread, but NP was lock-hungry and had to discontinue it. We have a right to talk about and debate over religious subjects, and this is the thread to do it in. However, I will agree that there was a lot of flaming in the other thread, so please, respect the rules of this board and keep in mind that everyone has differing opinions, otherwise punishment will be conflicted upon your soul.

Dakota
03-03-2005, 02:49 AM
I believe in God.................. :oops: ...........not much else to say :eh:

Ironshell Blastoise
03-03-2005, 10:13 PM
Well, I myself am an Aethist. This kind of topic usually brings out good points for both Pro-God's existence, and Pro-No higher being.

It would be difficult to convince someone of either side that their beliefs are wrong, seeing as many Christians (or anyone deeply involved in a religion dealing with a higher entity) refuse to listen to the talk of how He could not exist. Its basically a sin to think otherwise. Whereas, many Aethists either could not believe in God for some personal reason or another, or they feel God failed them or let them down, and therefore do not believe in something that they think isn't working for them.

I just am a man of science, and find religion a crutch. It is historically proven that religion was created to explain natural phenomena, and when man became curious of his own existence, needed an explaination of why he existed. This soon spread as a universal truth, although the religions split (obviously) as man spread over the planet.

Its easy to see why religion is all in our heads. Look back at history, and even now. All religions and their followers believe they are right. How are they all right when they conflict with each other? And where did God come from? How did he just pop up out of nowhere, needing no source of food or energy or shelter, and just decide to make a planet and life, leaving the people he loves to become curious and eventually disbelieve in him? What is the point of living if we're supposed to go to heaven or hell? And really, religion is run by the people. If the Pope said God was actually a woman, there would be a split in the Chatholic church, those who believed and those who didn't. And looking back at the history of religious explainations, NOTHING is plausable. An apple that causes man to lose "innocense" and totally defy the word of God? A talking snake?

Anyway, to anyone who is offended by my beliefs, there really needn't be a bashing. Just take my words as name face "ignorance" of the Lord's love and leave me be. While I am open to learning about religion, I do not want your beliefs forced upon me. I posted my views on the subject because I feel some people need the other side, and I have the constitutional right to speak my mind.

With that, have a nice day.

Dakota
03-03-2005, 10:33 PM
I've been in several religious debates in the past, and that's got to be the best recieved post I've ever heard from an atheist...hurrah for you :wink:

My typing is in Bold

Well, I myself am an Aethist. This kind of topic usually brings out good points for both Pro-God's existence, and Pro-No higher being.

True true...

It would be difficult to convince someone of either side that their beliefs are wrong, seeing as many Christians (or anyone deeply involved in a religion dealing with a higher entity) refuse to listen to the talk of how He could not exist. Its basically a sin to think otherwise. Whereas, many Aethists either could not believe in God for some personal reason or another, or they feel God failed them or let them down, and therefore do not believe in something that they think isn't working for them.

True true...

I just am a man of science, and find religion a crutch. It is historically proven that religion was created to explain natural phenomena, and when man became curious of his own existence, needed an explaination of why he existed. This soon spread as a universal truth, although the religions split (obviously) as man spread over the planet.

That is true of Myths and Legends, but not necessarily religion...some religion...

Its easy to see why religion is all in our heads. Look back at history, and even now. All religions and their followers believe they are right. How are they all right when they conflict with each other? And where did God come from? How did he just pop up out of nowhere, needing no source of food or energy or shelter, and just decide to make a planet and life, leaving the people he loves to become curious and eventually disbelieve in him? What is the point of living if we're supposed to go to heaven or hell? And really, religion is run by the people. If the Pope said God was actually a woman, there would be a split in the Chatholic church, those who believed and those who didn't. And looking back at the history of religious explainations, NOTHING is plausable. An apple that causes man to lose "innocense" and totally defy the word of God? A talking snake?

Well first lets ex out all the polytheistic religions, those are basically myths and legends. And now, out of those, ex out all the religions with a dead god, that kind of religion is just worthless. Now take the only religion with a loving God, who sent His son to die for people that didn't deserve it, and there you have christianty(sorry if that sounded kinda preachy >_>). And please, please do not confuse christianity with catholicism. Catholicism is (in my opinion) a puppet religion that cares more about members and money than it does it's faith. Catholics have killed more people than Hitler, Tojo and Staling combined, three-fold. What kind of effed up methodolgy is that. Catholicism is not bible believing christianity...

Anyway, to anyone who is offended by my beliefs, there really needn't be a bashing. Just take my words as name face "ignorance" of the Lord's love and leave me be. While I am open to learning about religion, I do not want your beliefs forced upon me. I posted my views on the subject because I feel some people need the other side, and I have the constitutional right to speak my mind.

I disagree with you, but I'm not offended :oops: It's ok to have different beliefs...

With that, have a nice day.

same to you :wink:

Ironshell Blastoise
03-03-2005, 11:10 PM
I must disagree with you on one point. Myths and legends were never true, but who's to say that someone from another religion (or no religious affilation at all) thinks that Christianity is based on Myths and legends. You can't tell me that the logic in their stories and explainations in things aren't similar in that they are inplausible by natural laws. I will note, though, that many people have visions and some things cannot be explained naturally, but are said to be religiously explained. I cannot totally agree or disagree, seeing as I did not witness these things, and people's beliefs alter how they infer and experience things in life. But back to history, if God has been around forever, logically, Christianity should be too, and it is historically proven that Christianity in fact has NOT been in existence forever, and was the result of subsidary almost prehistoric religions splittings. No one can give exact details of the beginnings of the Christian religion, but it is by far one of the most widespread of religions.

If you have seen the movie "Contact", you might know that almost 95-97% of the world believes in a higher being of some sort, and for the few 5-3% to tell them all that they are wrong, well, thats quite unbelievable for those Believers. 95% is an awful lot of people to be wrong about life, but then again, that 95% is split into hundreds of different religions, so they are in turn all wrong when compared to each other.

Dakota
03-03-2005, 11:41 PM
The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 1 characters. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I must disagree with you on one point. Myths and legends were never true, but who's to say that someone from another religion (or no religious affilation at all) thinks that Christianity is based on Myths and legends. You can't tell me that the logic in their stories and explainations in things aren't similar in that they are inplausible by natural laws. I will note, though, that many people have visions and some things cannot be explained naturally, but are said to be religiously explained. I cannot totally agree or disagree, seeing as I did not witness these things, and people's beliefs alter how they infer and experience things in life. But back to history, if God has been around forever, logically, Christianity should be too, and it is historically proven that Christianity in fact has NOT been in existence forever, and was the result of subsidary almost prehistoric religions splittings. No one can give exact details of the beginnings of the Christian religion, but it is by far one of the most widespread of religions.

The christian faith has been around since the beginning, but the construction of churches and temples and what not, I don't know when that started. I believe the bible to be real mainly because of it's sheer amazment where it was written over a time span of about 4000 years, by 40 different authors, most of which never met each other. And yet there is still not a contradiction in the bible. Scientific "facts" often times get disproven later on as new things are discovered, but the bible has retained it's original form than when it was just on a scroll, and there has not been a single contradiction.

If you have seen the movie "Contact", you might know that almost 95-97% of the world believes in a higher being of some sort, and for the few 5-3% to tell them all that they are wrong, well, thats quite unbelievable for those Believers. 95% is an awful lot of people to be wrong about life, but then again, that 95% is split into hundreds of different religions, so they are in turn all wrong when compared to each other.

I saw it, but I was like, 9 or something when I did :oops: . But I personally don't believe in intelligent life forms on other planets. Don't ask me why, I just don't :wink: .

rainfall
03-03-2005, 11:45 PM
this kind of debate never proves anything...though it is intriguing all the same.

this fascinated me, however.

It is historically proven that religion was created to explain natural phenomena, and when man became curious of his own existence, needed an explaination of why he existed.

when and where was this proven?

Tamer Marco
03-04-2005, 12:00 AM
Okay... not the best debater. I'm eleven, and i'm not in some kind of religion and science course. But, here are my thoughts that no one will probably listen to or comphrehend.


Okay, first of all, I believe there's a god. With the Big Bang theroy, I don't see how it could exist. Well, they say that there was a cloud of matter, and it exploded, and created more matter. But matter couldn't exist unless it was created by someone or something, and how could utter destruction bring out beauty? Its impossible.

Once again, I am stating I believe in god, but I am not a religious person. Nor my mother, or sister. All three of us believe Religion is crap created by man, but when you think about it, almost all Religon's have a god. If it be Jesus Christ, Allah, Laozi, or a banna from all I care, they have very simple similarities. I believe in the begining, there could of been certain religions, but man corrupted them, as how Catholisum is corrupted. Please, no offense to any catholics.

And where did God come from? How did he just pop up out of nowhere, needing no source of food or energy or shelter, and just decide to make a planet and life, leaving the people he loves to become curious and eventually disbelieve in him? What is the point of living if we're supposed to go to heaven or hell? I actually think he spoke himself into existence. Hee hee, kind of weird, but there's good and evil? Perhaps God is the esscense of good itself, and just to created himself to create. And with evil, I think there wasn't any evil in the universe until it was filled with mans greed and hatred. And its not decided that you go to heaven or hell... You make the choice youself. Destiny doesn't exist until you make your own destiny. You could be "destined" to die a horrible death, but you could easily change your life. The point of life is to live it, thats a question that doesn't truly need a answer.

But back to history, if God has been around forever, logically, Christianity should be too, and it is historically proven that Christianity in fact has NOT been in existence forever, and was the result of subsidary almost prehistoric religions splittings. No one can give exact details of the beginnings of the Christian religion, but it is by far one of the most widespread of religions. Religion was made by god, and who said it wasn't forever? One thing I do believe in science is evolution. There's proof all around us. I can ask anyone, and they'd say our first ancestors were single celled organisums. Can a single cell organisum comprehend a math sentence? No. Can a single cell organisum comprehend religion? Certianly no. I think its all about perspective, how you choose to live your life, and if you have faith in a higher being than you and I. Its not hard to understand at all.


Okay, I gave my two cents, hope they meant something. Peace.

JohtoTrainer
03-04-2005, 12:58 AM
I was the one that had Neo lock this thread the first time. The thread was made juse for christian bashing it was obvious. But also the christians were bashing also so it was even.

The way the debating is going now I have no problem with, I just hope it stays this way.

I'm a strong believer in god, but I would like to say that Khold, you are bringing up some VERY good points. Good job lol.

MystiKal
03-04-2005, 03:24 AM
I for one am a christian and I agree with Khold there is no proof that god exists and where he came from you just have to believe in him.

rainfall
03-04-2005, 04:11 AM
i see christianity as anything but blind faith, however. much like evolution, there is evidence all around you...however you choose to interpret these evidence is up to you and whether or not you accept these as evidence are also up to you. and much like evolution, there is no sound method of proving it absolutely true or false, as the past isn't reproducible.

Ironshell Blastoise
03-04-2005, 10:43 PM
Well, when looking at fossil records, pre-human remains, and using scientific methods, there is evidence that proves that pre-human species started doing rituals, which seemed to have religious meaning. While I can't give any specific locations or time frames, the oldest are dated back over 20,000 years ago. Now, that by all means extends longer than the time the Bible was said to have been written, and it by all means is nothing compared to the 4-5 billion years of the planet's existence. If God and religion have been around forever, wouldn't man have been honoring and worshipping God at the time of their existence? If the Bible records time, why doesn't it say anything about the dinosaurs, which can not be denied that they existed. The Bible says God made the Earth, spent 7 days on it, then made Adam, and then made Eve. So, where do the dinosaurs come into play? Or even pre-human species, which undeniably one species evolved into what we are today, homo sapien. The bible gives no reference to anything that science has proves dates before it. Humans are curious creatures, and so we have always searched for explainations to things. Because pre-humans couldn't explain many phenomena, they began to agree with each other that there was a higher power, and so began worshipping this/these higher power(s) in hopes that they might have a better chance for survival. Do your research, take World History in High School, or take any history class with emphasis on pre-humans, and you'd find I do not lie.

I appologize if you take my outlook on religion as being blind, but I truly do find it the easy way out. Not that religious people search for the "easy way out" conciously, but you were raised under these beliefs, so you really don't know any better. You were raised to worship God, and were taught that denying his existence or turning your back on him would give you a full-expense paid ticket to Hell. So, you either:

1-Follow your beliefs to the core, never doubting his existence, because you don't want to end up in an eternity of flames. You were raised under your beliefs, and you have no reason to turn away from them.
2-Aren't sure, but believe anyway, for you are afraid to find out otherwise. You aren't sure, and so you "take the easy way out" by accepting religion as the truth, so you can live your life without worrying that you'll end up in a firey expanse of forever
or 3-For some reason, grow tired of religion, see things differently, and/or aren't afraid of the outcome, so you forge your own path.

While there may be others, those are the major 3 that I find. Most religious people are choice #1, but I have met many people who aren't too sure, and they fall under category 2. I am #3.


I do realize that there are you religious phenatics out there that don't believe a lick of science at all. And there is really no arguing with you about what you believe, when you completely do not believe in what I believe in. I can't blame those people for being narrow-minded about their beliefs, standing that their beliefs are right, when I myself am narrowminded. I find it VERY hard to believe that there is a higher being, because there is so much tangible and logical evidence against this. But while I am very firm in my beliefs, I am always very open to being proven wrong. Yet, I doubt this will happen, because the evidence people get that God exists isn't tangible. Something nice or miraculous happens in their lives, and so they say God has blessed them, and that is enough for them. Sadly to say, it isn't enough for me. I'd need to see with my own eyes that higher powers do exist.

I have other points to bring up, but I'll save those for a later time. I will let you all catch up.

rainfall
03-05-2005, 01:15 AM
hrm...i wasn't responding to you in particular when i mentioned blind faith.

but...being a man of science i'm surprised at the fact that you use terms like undeniably even when no credible evolutionist up to date would dare use it when describing the theory of evolution. i wouldn't say i'm very religious, but i'll debate from the religious perspective and its historical evidence just to play the devil's advocate.

granted, you're correct in that christianity hasn't been around since the existence of the world, but according to christian doctrines, neither has christ in his flesh. christianity is of course, the practice that follows the teachings of christ - thus without christ, there was no christianity. however, before christ's time there was already judaism, which dates back to the ordained father of jews, abraham.

there is evidence that proves that pre-human species started doing rituals, which seemed to have religious meaning

this serves not as evidence against religion...if anything, it proves religion has been around as long as we have.

in fact, true atheism as defined by the complete denial of a higher authority is a rather modern concept, much more modern you claim christianity to be. the scientific revolution did not take place till the later sixteenth century and before then, most people were assumed religious and the few who were not were considered to be blasphemous and insane. teachings of the church were quintessential to all forms of government, education and the arts. which is why even great philosophes and philosophers of our history like locke and newton were either somewhat religious or deeply religious though they are also men of science. the clear line that divided the religious from the non-religious was drawn only recently, considering the amount of time humans have walked the earth. if you've taken secular courses on world history and human enlightenment you would know that these aren't lies either.

even now, christianity isn't as clear-cut as you might think. there are those who believe in intelligent design as well as those who believe in assisted evolution. there are also those who take everything in the chapters of genesis literally as well as those who take it metaphorically. there are young and old earth creationists. if genesis is taken metaphorically, the world would not necessarily have come into existence within the span of seven days and the world would be much older than it would be if taken literally.

Not that religious people search for the "easy way out" conciously, but you were raised under these beliefs, so you really don't know any better. You were raised to worship God, and were taught that denying his existence or turning your back on him would give you a full-expense paid ticket to Hell.

that's pretty absolute. atheism has no room for absolutes, only relativity. whether it be relativism of experiences or the value of right and wrong, doesn't a statement like that fly in the face of everything you claim to believe in?

the truth stands that everyone, regardless of belief and standards has a set value of what is right and wrong. if you only believe in principles anchored in science, i'm sure you're familiar with freudian philosphy. there is a reason for the existence of a constant struggle between the id and the super-ego and that struggle cannot be explained by biological evidences alone.

but even if all religious individuals are as you believe...considering that in atheism there is no price to be paid, no consequences follow our actions, we need not pay heed to needs of others, our lives can be lived anyway we wish without restrictions and that after death our wrongdoings will pass as our bodies decay...wouldn't this be the easier way out than living a virtuous life in fear of going to hell?

IceKing
03-05-2005, 01:41 AM
I believe in God and I prefer to worship god in my own way to avoid corruption of most religions. I dont care what other people believe and dont force my beliefs onto them because I think religion is somethign you follow with your heart. Perhaps my God isnt real, but does it really matter? Im not hurting anyone or myself by believing in him. I find strength in God as well as a set of rules. If he isnt real I dont lose anything, if he is real and I dont believe in him the only thign I lose is my eternal soul (not tryign to force my beliefs or offend anyone)

Ironshell Blastoise
03-05-2005, 06:26 AM
When I brought up the point about per-humans engaging in religious activities, I was stating that these humans were following a religion they made up. It wasn't Christianity off the bat, and it wasn't given to them by any higher being. Thats just it, they made it up, and it grew over time to what we have today.

And while you do have a good argument, I will have to back out of this debate for a while, as I have other things I need to take care of. Expect me back in a week or so. :happy:

Marill
03-05-2005, 04:17 PM
Well, when looking at fossil records, pre-human remains, and using scientific methods, there is evidence that proves that pre-human species started doing rituals, which seemed to have religious meaning. While I can't give any specific locations or time frames, the oldest are dated back over 20,000 years ago. Now, that by all means extends longer than the time the Bible was said to have been written, and it by all means is nothing compared to the 4-5 billion years of the planet's existence. If God and religion have been around forever, wouldn't man have been honoring and worshipping God at the time of their existence? If the Bible records time, why doesn't it say anything about the dinosaurs, which can not be denied that they existed. The Bible says God made the Earth, spent 7 days on it, then made Adam, and then made Eve. So, where do the dinosaurs come into play?


Pre humans and dinosaurs. Many times I've been asked about this. So here we go:

Humans - True, Jesus was sent to die for those who had already sinned. He was referred to as the King of the Jews, therefore fulfilling to some Jews the belief that their messiah had come. That's how you see some of them branch off. Therefore, if the humans were Jews to begin with, and/or believed in God, they still, I'm assuming, could have risen to heaven.

Dinosaurs - God does not have a timspan. Time means nothing to him. 7 Days could have been a metaphorical statement.... In human time it could have been 7 seconds, or 7 million years. No one knows, because no human is God. No human has a Godly intellect. Therefore, you cannot measure that time, as no human was present. And, by some freak chance, if they were, they could have seen this as truth... Sadly, yet, they didn't record it.


Humans are curious creatures, and so we have always searched for explainations to things. True, humans are curious as to what prompted things to happen. But who, in their right mind, would invent such a thing that was so much faith-based? And then who could have the right power and manipulation (if you want to call it that) to force a large population to accept such a notion? Organized Religion and Faith are two different things. Believing is having faith. Faith comes from within.

As much as you cannot see why people are prohibit themselves from viewing the facts as to the validty of God, I actually have stopped to see what the alternatives are. And in every idea, I can always connect it with God. I personally don't see how anyone can NOT believe in God, and that's set aside from background and personal bias. You can prove that he's here by some evidence, be it physical or spiritual, and the rest is butressed by faith. There's only physical evidence that people can present to show that he's not here. There's no faith behind their work.... As if they did have faith, they'd know that God was real in the first place.

Hmm, anyway. I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

Ironshell Blastoise
03-05-2005, 07:20 PM
Dinosaurs - God does not have a timspan. Time means nothing to him. 7 Days could have been a metaphorical statement.... In human time it could have been 7 seconds, or 7 million years. No one knows, because no human is God. No human has a Godly intellect. Therefore, you cannot measure that time, as no human was present. And, by some freak chance, if they were, they could have seen this as truth... Sadly, yet, they didn't record it.

Even if it IS metaphorical, really, who told the first person that wrote the Bible how long it took? How'd he know to make it metaphorical?


True, humans are curious as to what prompted things to happen. But who, in their right mind, would invent such a thing that was so much faith-based? And then who could have the right power and manipulation (if you want to call it that) to force a large population to accept such a notion? Organized Religion and Faith are two different things. Believing is having faith. Faith comes from within.

Who in their right mind? Well, remember, that these were pre-humans, and were not as intellectually powerful as us. They had some reasoning, but not as much as we did. They found simple things to explain what happened. And since it was simple, they didn't have to think all that much about minor things and could go on surviving. Also, note, that life is all about survival of the fittest. I can't explain exactly how so many people started following the first religions, but many species of pre-human died off, probably those that didn't have a "religion" because those with religion were more intelligent (because they had the ability to try to explain things, if you can follow me), and intelligence gives you an edge in survival. Since they had not explainations to begin with, it was easy for them to accept what they were told and not question it. Over time, populations grew, spreading the religions.

As much as you cannot see why people are prohibit themselves from viewing the facts as to the validty of God, I actually have stopped to see what the alternatives are. And in every idea, I can always connect it with God. I personally don't see how anyone can NOT believe in God, and that's set aside from background and personal bias. You can prove that he's here by some evidence, be it physical or spiritual, and the rest is butressed by faith. There's only physical evidence that people can present to show that he's not here. There's no faith behind their work.... As if they did have faith, they'd know that God was real in the first place.

Hmm, anyway. I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

And as I have said before, some people are so set in their faith, that it is difficult to make them understand the other side of the picture. Not that I'm bashing you or anything, but your faith is strong, and so I guess we should just agree to disagree on these matters. And I appreciate your humane nature while in this topic. That goes to everyone else who's stated their opinions.

I would like some Atheist support, also, I can't do it alone, I can only hold up for so long on my own. :sad:

rainfall
03-05-2005, 07:47 PM
Humans - True, Jesus was sent to die for those who had already sinned. He was referred to as the King of the Jews, therefore fulfilling to some Jews the belief that their messiah had come. That's how you see some of them branch off. Therefore, if the humans were Jews to begin with, and/or believed in God, they still, I'm assuming, could have risen to heaven.

actually, the first humans weren't jewish. adam and eve certainly weren't jewish. the reason that god chose the jewish as his people, according to scriptures, was the faith that abraham had in god. while the rest of the world slipped away from god, abraham recovered the faith in only one god and dedicated himself to god. therefore god chose abraham and his descendents, the jewish, to be his people.

the main difference between judaism and christianity is that judaism does not accept the new testament and still follow the strict teachings of the old testament. the devout judaist denies christ as savior and therefore denies christianity altogether.

Dinosaurs - God does not have a timspan. Time means nothing to him.

also, according to the scriptures, there was a creature recorded to be similar in appearance to a serpent yet sprouted wings. who knows? could be a pterodactyl.

You can prove that he's here by some evidence, be it physical or spiritual, and the rest is butressed by faith. There's only physical evidence that people can present to show that he's not here. There's no faith behind their work.... As if they did have faith, they'd know that God was real in the first place.

in the seminar that i've attended [which is the whole reason this interests me, though i'm not religious]...the professor did present some historical evidence to the composition of the scriptures. however there's no point in listing them here as the ones who will accept them would already have and those who reject them have already shielded their conscience.

what fascinates me most is the fact that science really does require a massive amount of faith. it took a lot of faith for darwin to develop his theory of evolution and it takes even more faith for people to accept it today. how religion is different i don't know...but i do know that i for one see them both somewhat equivalent in credibility. either has evidence but neither can be proven.

so i'll go back to my point at the very beginning, there is never going to be an ending to this debate, not until we've passed on and experienced what is or is not beyond for ourselves.

I would like some Atheist support, also, I can't do it alone, I can only hold up for so long on my own.

to be frank, atheism makes less sense to me than either theism or agnosticism. but i won't go into that for now as i have no intention of denouncing your belief system.

being agnostic is also fun that way, i can support both sides as i see fit =P

Ironshell Blastoise
03-05-2005, 08:08 PM
I appreciate your mutuality. Also, plz tell me what Agnostic is :ermm: I am not familiar with that term

rainfall
03-05-2005, 10:36 PM
agnosticism is in between the polar ends of atheism and theism. an agnostic believes that there is no possibility of proving the existence of god and therefore chooses to neither believe in him nor deny him and simply acknowledge that there's a possibility of his existence.

Ironshell Blastoise
03-05-2005, 10:43 PM
So, if I don't believe in God, and am open to being shown he does exist, that would make me Agnostic and not Atheist?

rainfall
03-05-2005, 11:18 PM
yeah. if you are at all open to the possibility that he can exist, then you would be agnostic.

atheism is dead and set in stone, if you're atheistic you essentially deny any possibility of his existence.

Marill
03-06-2005, 12:30 AM
Maybe I shouldn't have said anything at all. I'm set in my faith, but I'm not the best debater in the first place. v-v; When I have more time, I'll post more information. I don't like being bashed... But that's a thing Christians take as compliments as well.

Finglonger
03-06-2005, 09:25 AM
man, religious debates are pointless. The atheist will never convince the christian there is no god, the christian will never convince the atheist he is wrong. Nobody wins and a lot of people end up angry.

now personally I believe in some sort of higher being. I don't like organized religion because they tend to tell you what to do, and how to live your life and i dont like that. I would rather just live as virtuously as I possibly can, and you know hope for the best.

Matthew
03-06-2005, 09:43 AM
I'd have to agree with fing here.... this debate topic is like arguing the topic of abortion.... it is going to be very difficult/near impossible to change the other's sides mind. I don't see the point in the debate. You either beleive or you don't... or you are agnostic.... one or the other... It is pointless to debate.

As for me, I would probably say I am an Agnostic Catholic. When thinking of religion, I think trhough the Catholic teachings as that was how I was raised. Though, I don't practice it, and I don't beleive it.

God is not real. No god is real. I feel that when refering to a god, you are refering to a thought, a higher power that one can't understand. God was never a physical entity, and he never shall be. He is a figment of our mental capability to think and beleive. And that is what I think... I am not going to change any of your minds.

Religion is a touchy subject and I try not to bring it up in debates because it is the most retarded argument you can use, like why is abortion wrong: 'because it is against my God's teachings.' pfft.... Though I am against the process of aborting, you can't argue with religion... you won't get anywhere with it because people are stubborn when it comes to it....

I am done now :silly:

Tamer San
03-07-2005, 03:58 PM
NOTE: If you can get easily offended don't read this. First of all I want to say that I haven't read everything so far, but I am into the subject, and I am with Khold in everything he said. I am a greek Orthodox (Christian) and I go to the Catholic church to pray if I wanted to or if i had time (Because my girlfriend is there :wink: ), anyway, here is my two cents:

Religioun now days isn't as spiritual as some people claim and it never was spiritual. The god(s) where always found and created by man him self to explain an unknown phenomena, and to prove things he cannot prove with his brain like Fire, Weather, even War (Yes, some people believes that the blessing of the War God/Godess granted them the win while it is always depending on the tactics, strategy, quantity and quality of men and equipment...and if I am mistaken then just prove me wrong logically). Yes, I do hate the people who say that "Oh, thank god we won...or something because after revision you will see it is not as logical as much as all what I have mentioned previously. So, yes, mainly god isn't the super power because eventually it is created by man...Pharoes(Sp?) and ancien egypt had gods for every single phenomena, even death...because they couldn't explain it or because it was something so great to happen like the Nile (Godess of the Nile), Ancien Greek had gods for phenomenas too, like evil, good, war, fire, love (Which I find strange because love doesn't need a god to prove) and much more. Even Buda him self isn't a real god, he is made a god because people liked him, he was simply a guy spreading the word about god we believe in, but because he did more than the "god" did they started believing that Buda was that god. And about a blessed Cows and such... :eek:

I am not done here, and I am not having my thoughts organized...so just comment and I will reply later!

Alakazam
03-08-2005, 01:24 PM
NOTE/FYI: I am a Roman Catholic and I believe in God.

ANOTHER NOTE (to all the people that say "Religous debates are pointless. You're never going to convince anyone of anything"): You're entitled to your opinion, and I respect that, but please don't post in this thread if you're not going to add to the disucssion. I believe that a debate like this is valuable to learn why others have beliefs different from your own, which can often lead to a reaffirmation and strengthening of one's own beliefs.

All religions and their followers believe they are right.

Granted, but this doesn't prove anything or support your position. Any holder of ANY belief believe that they are right. If you thought you were wrong, than you wouldn't hold that belief. Though I realize your implications of arrogance and intolerance among religous people, the fact that they believe that they are right in-and-of istelf doesn't tell us anything.


How are they all right when they conflict with each other?

No one ever said that they are "all" right, but I'll get into this later with my theory on the universality of religion.


If the Pope said God was actually a woman, there would be a split in the Chatholic church, those who believed and those who didn't.

Yes, just as it happened in Islam over whether the leaders should be decendants of Muhammed or elected officials. (the Sunnis and the Shi'ites), and the skism bewtween Judaism and Christianity fo Christ. But again, I don't see how this is relevant.

And looking back at the history of religious explainations, NOTHING is plausable. An apple that causes man to lose "innocense" and totally defy the word of God? A talking snake?

I see that you look for proof in order to believe in God. Though it doesn't suprise me coming from a self-proclaimed man of science, I beseech you to not bother to look for proof. For it isn't there. You see, not all things in this world require proof. Many people, including yourself, put religion into the realm of empiricism (along with science, technology, etc - things that are founded on proof). However, do you need proof that being honest is a good thing to hold the following belief? "Honesty is a virtue. People should do their best to be honest." That is just one example of things that fall into a realm outside proof, though they are just as everpresent in our society as science is.

So, I hope we can all agree on the following statement.

We cannot prove or disprove the existance of God.

Given this, there's no point in talking about proof. However, please don't think that because there is no proof that there is no basis for a belief in God. (see the above example, as well as other statements which I'm sure are to come, either by me or someone else.

Alakazam
03-18-2005, 11:53 AM
Where did everybody go? Will no one continue this debate? :/

ElimN8
03-19-2005, 05:39 AM
However, do you need proof that being honest is a good thing to hold the following belief? "Honesty is a virtue. People should do their best to be honest."You're right, in a sense. Nobody in this world ever feels that they need proof that their beliefs are valid, for that is the very basis of "belief" in this sense: certitude in spite of evidence.

Belief can also mean the exact opposite though: "conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence." (Webster)

Religion tends to follow only the former sense of the word though, which seems to be its own exclusive definition. In order to put this in an objective light, in a truly empiristic manner, one needs to take only as true that which has some universally agreeable foundation.

You can argue that not all of our supposed "facts" are universally agreeable, as someone somewhere might disagree with "1+1=2." And they could be right. Their method of thinking might be the actual reality of things, and everyone else has some kind of delusional, incorrect perception of the world. There's really no way of knowing, especially with a limited, first-person frame of referance—but does that stop us from numerical calculation?

The same could be said of our previous debate, where you claimed that Rap wasn't music. As a form of art, there is no objectivity in what is and is not music, but that doesn't mean you won't find Rap CDs in the music section of an electronics store.

So, while you may not need proof to believe that honesty is a virtue (if you do), one of an opposing viewpoint must then have evidence to disprove it, for it happens to be a widespread established thought [in this particular society]. Personally, an individual may require nothing more than a whim to think something is so, but in order to project their belief, they must back it up with facts.

It is for that reason that you can not simply taboo the use of evidence in this debate, for it is an essential part of what one must use in order to (dis)prove God's existance; saying "I think this, you think that" simply goes agaisnt the very concept of a debate, which is why no one has continued this particular one until now.

King Zark
03-19-2005, 09:57 AM
There is a god because everything can't be explained by science and Science CAN'T BE 100% correct ALL the TIME.

So if there is a god there are logical explaination for hings like who created the unverse.

But you can't blame god for everything bad happens to you because you have you own FREE will so god doesn't act upon you actions you make your own actions!


There is my 2 cent worth.

Here's my Philsiosopy(sp) I could put more but it 4 am and haven't sleeped since 9 pm

Alakazam
03-19-2005, 01:23 PM
(I didn't mean to bring the discussion to a halt with my above post, and I apologize if I did so. :redface: )

You're right, in a sense. Nobody in this world ever feels that they need proof that their beliefs are valid, for that is the very basis of "belief" in this sense: certitude in spite of evidence.

Belief can also mean the exact opposite though: "conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence." (Webster)

Religion tends to follow only the former sense of the word though, which seems to be its own exclusive definition. In order to put this in an objective light, in a truly empiristic manner, one needs to take only as true that which has some universally agreeable foundation.

You can argue that not all of our supposed "facts" are universally agreeable, as someone somewhere might disagree with "1+1=2." And they could be right. Their method of thinking might be the actual reality of things, and everyone else has some kind of delusional, incorrect perception of the world. There's really no way of knowing, especially with a limited, first-person frame of referance—but does that stop us from numerical calculation?

The same could be said of our previous debate, where you claimed that Rap wasn't music. As a form of art, there is no objectivity in what is and is not music, but that doesn't mean you won't find Rap CDs in the music section of an electronics store.

Agreed. Though, for purposes of not veering too far off topic, I won't go too much into knowledge/reality (though I'd very much enjoy setting up an entirely different debate regarding knowledge/reality).

So, while you may not need proof to believe that honesty is a virtue (if you do), one of an opposing viewpoint must then have evidence to disprove it, for it happens to be a widespread established thought [in this particular society]. Personally, an individual may require nothing more than a whim to think something is so, but in order to project their belief, they must back it up with facts.

It is for that reason that you can not simply taboo the use of evidence in this debate, for it is an essential part of what one must use in order to (dis)prove God's existance; saying "I think this, you think that" simply goes agaisnt the very concept of a debate, which is why no one has continued this particular one until now.

I see what you mean, though I'm still not entirely sure how one can apply empiricism to the existance to God.

(Oh, and by the way, "empiricism is a word a rather like, and piked up receently, it means: The view that experience, especially of the senses, is the only source of knowledge.)

Now I'd like to go back and address the original question in this thread, "Is God Real"? I lament that the starting point for such a discussion is such an oversimplified question, but my answer is NO, and here's why: When the question "Is X real?", we're really asking if something exists, and in doing so, we use our own definition of the word "existance" to answer the question. I exist, the keyboard that I'm typing this post on exists, a clock exists, etc. Does God exist in the same way that I do? In the same way that my clock does? That's an easy question, and the answer is no. You're not going to see God walking down the street or acting on TV.

But this does NOT disprove his existance. He exists in a way DIFFERENT than we exist. Being infinite and the Creator of all things, his existance is NOT analagous to our own existance, and therefore we can't use our word "existance" (or, at least, our common definition of the word) in the context of God. It just doesn't work.

There is a god because everything can't be explained by science and Science CAN'T BE 100% correct ALL the TIME.

So if there is a god there are logical explaination for hings like who created the unverse.


That doesn't make sense, because you seem to be assuming that humans are infallible. People make mistakes, and so science isn't always right. But just because science falters doesn't mean that its any less valid. Also, you seem to assume that "if there is a god there is a logical explanation for things like who created the universe". Well, may there not be a way through science to find out about the origins of the universe? Just because we haven't found much yet doesn't gainsay the possibilty.

King Zark
03-19-2005, 10:25 PM
I am saying that in Science proves a lot of things like why we rotate around the sun but there are somethings that can be only explained by god.

Like the heart pumping w/o any bofy part telling it to pump.

Khashoggi
03-20-2005, 04:15 PM
I am saying that in Science proves a lot of things like why we rotate around the sun but there are somethings that can be only explained by god.

Like the heart pumping w/o any bofy part telling it to pump.
Well, there's this thing called a brain... I'm guessing you've not come across one before. Besides which, heart cells have a natural tendency to twitch.

And religion was used to explain many things that people were unsure of in the past, almost all of which have now been explained by science. I'm sure a lot will become clear in that way in the future.

Finglonger
03-23-2005, 12:36 AM
I am saying that in Science proves a lot of things like why we rotate around the sun but there are somethings that can be only explained by god.

Like the heart pumping w/o any bofy part telling it to pump.

hahaha classic, yeah. XD some people crack me up.

anyhow in my opinion its foolish to think that science can or will explain everything. its fundamental flaw is that it cannot explain why, sure it can explain how or to what extent, but people need religion to give them a reason why. why are we here? why is there anything? science cannot answer these questions, but in god people think they may be able to find an answer. people need to believe that there is something greater than themselves, that there is a reason why we were all placed here. if nothing else the idea of a god gives us hope and comfort, even if hes not real.

Even if its just a lie I would rather live in a world of warmth and love than a world of cold sterile science. Now do I believe its a lie? no, not really, but in keeping an open mind I feel I have to address these issues.

LambOfGod
03-25-2005, 04:31 PM
In my opinion, I think God is real. You can't see him with your own naked-eyes, but it's more of an internal feeling rather than external. The thing that convinces me the most that he is real is the things that have happened to me and others around me during my lifetime. Being at rock bottom and shattering self-pride away has helped me see this phenomenon ... And besides, you can't see historical figures alive today, but we have evidence that they existed; and the same goes for Jesus Christ.

Something else I want to address... why do people focus 'religion' solely on Christianity? I rarely see talks of Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, and all those other 'religions', and the majority of this world's populus attacks Christianity.

Bash at me all you want, but at least I threw in my two cents.

Finglonger
03-25-2005, 07:27 PM
people attack christianity because christians more than any other religion try to push their beliefs on others. I rarely hear of radical buddhist missionaries and etc. also christianity is the most mainstream religion in western society, it gets out there more. now I'm not attacking christianity, because I am a christian so don't get me wrong, I'm just saying christianity is the most discussed because most of us are more familiar with it.

fundamentally, though, all these religions are similiar and the topic, if you noticed, is entitled "is god real?" god is a sweeping generalization, and if you want to discuss the talmud or the koran I would be happy to, just ask. ok?

The Franchise
04-02-2005, 03:05 PM
I'm just going to throw in my two cents here. Not that it matters but I think it prooves that there is some sort of a being that is "God" or some all powerful force atleast.

The Cosmological Theory

The fact that all physics and everything we know is based on one unarguable law... Causality

With every action there is a reaction...

Cause and effect, its simple enough...



now what this argues is... if you trace back... to the beginning stages of the universe... if you go down the causality chain... such as we evolved from organisms and those organisms made their way from the water which made its way from the humidity because of out ozone lair, which made it possible for living conditions... which was created over time through a gathering of particles in the air... which was released over time as the earth cooled down which was hot because like our solar system came from the aftermath of a supernova which came from a giant star that through the billions of years started from the collection of another star that exploded which go back billions and billions of years possibly was a result of the BIG BANG which was the force that started the chain of events... the causal chain... that was a series of reactions from 3 gasses... and where did those gasses come from?



ever single effect had a cause before it...

now there is a problem with causality when you reach point A of the causal chain...

what I mean by point A is... if the big bang was point A, then the expanding of particles would be point B... then the creation of a star would be point C, and then the that star exploding creating other stars would be point D

And so forth

Now back to point A... if every Effect has to have a Cause... then what caused the “Initial” Cause or point A...? Its inexplicable because if SOMETHING caused Point A… then that SOMETHING would also need a cause…

Therefore the only explanation for this is that there exists, an unmoved mover… an Uncaused cause… some sort of being that started the chain of reactions… the one thing in the universe that can Move things and not be moved… the only thing that can cause, without having to be caused, without having to need a force to initiate its movements… this is the only explanation to Law of Causality which our entire scientific knowledge is based on… Causality is what Physics is based on… you throw away causality and you throw away everything humans think they know for sure

Therefore the only explanation for Point A of the Causal Chain is the Uncaused Cause… or in another word, God

A being that defies all knowledge, and who’s actions are outside of our universal laws. Without this being, nothing could have started at all.

Alakazam
04-23-2005, 01:33 AM
Therefore the only explanation for this is that there exists, an unmoved mover… an Uncaused cause… some sort of being that started the chain of reactions… the one thing in the universe that can Move things and not be moved… the only thing that can cause, without having to be caused, without having to need a force to initiate its movements… this is the only explanation to Law of Causality which our entire scientific knowledge is based on… Causality is what Physics is based on… you throw away causality and you throw away everything humans think they know for sure

Therefore the only explanation for Point A of the Causal Chain is the Uncaused Cause… or in another word, God

A being that defies all knowledge, and who’s actions are outside of our universal laws. Without this being, nothing could have started at all.

I don't think that the only possible explanation for the cause of A is God. With that statement, you made the assumption that the causal chain is finite. Allow me to present another possible explantion:

What if the causal chain is infinite? What if these IS a cause of Point A, and then another cause before that, and so on ... True, we can't fathom such a thing, but it doesn't rule it out as a possibility.

Then again we can no more fathom God as the Initial Cause than we can fathom causal infinity, can we?

Ironshell Blastoise
04-23-2005, 11:40 PM
hahaha classic, yeah. XD some people crack me up.

anyhow in my opinion its foolish to think that science can or will explain everything. its fundamental flaw is that it cannot explain why, sure it can explain how or to what extent, but people need religion to give them a reason why. why are we here? why is there anything? science cannot answer these questions, but in god people think they may be able to find an answer. people need to believe that there is something greater than themselves, that there is a reason why we were all placed here. if nothing else the idea of a god gives us hope and comfort, even if hes not real.

Even if its just a lie I would rather live in a world of warmth and love than a world of cold sterile science. Now do I believe its a lie? no, not really, but in keeping an open mind I feel I have to address these issues.

The sad thing is, Fingy, "Why?" is explained by religion by these 4 words every time: "Because God wanted to"

Religion never gives a real answer why. It only covers the bases.

I get headaches wondering where all the matter in the universe came from. When you get right down to it, where DID every atom come from? How? Why? When? "Because God wanted to" is good enough answer for about 97% of the religious population. I myself can say that we will NEVER know exactly how matter came into being and why, because it would be impossible. Literally impossible. But just thinking about it is something which gives one a good hour or two of quiet time alone. Then you get a headache [insert comedic drum sounds here]

Matthew
04-24-2005, 12:59 AM
Hmmm... I find it funny when people are so thick headed, their only reason for something they don't understand is "Because God wanted to." That to me is a sign of ignorance, because how can you be arguing againt/answering a question of something you don't understand. It's all quite funny too me.

I don't like debates about religion, because when it comes to a topic of beleif, the debators are going to be thick-headed and unwilling to change their mind, and the debate will go on forever, or eventually die. That is why Neo locked the first thread. lol.

To me, all religion is just a figmant of our imaginations. It's something there for us to believe in, and nothing else. It can't be used for an explination, because it isn't physically real. Just like saying that your imaginary friend broke your mom's priceless Ming vase when in actuallity, you did it. It's foolish.

Religion will always exist because it is in our imagination. It's the power of the human mind, you see, to create. And we did just that. We created religion, we created gods, we created anything else to do with religion.

It has been proven that matter can neither be destroyed or created, so your explination that god 'created' the big bang is flawed. I feel that the big bang is a reoccuring event in which the universe expands and emplodes infinitely. I can't go into much more detail seeing as I don't have much knowledge in teh feild of astrophysics... so :P

My closing argument:

god is real, only to an extent... in our minds. He is not a physical entity, and he never was. He is a figment of our imagination, and always will be. Any religion is something to beleive in.

Meh... That's my argument :P

-Matthew.

Finglonger
04-25-2005, 01:11 AM
hmm I agree with you to some extent matthew. But you have to concede that religion is, to some extent, a neccesary outgrowth of any human society. People want to believe in something, they need to. I think it would be a very depressing world if there was no such thing as religion anywhere.

Khold, I agree with you as well. But people need that explanation, no matter how stupid it may seem. Its a convenience more than anything, if not at least a half truth. Trying to perceive our own creation is a daunting task, and when I get to thinking about it, I get truly perplexed.

Also I want to say, who are we as humans to deny or qualify the existence of "god"? We, with our limited knowledge and inability to perceive anything greater then ourselves. Humans tend think they are more important than they really are.

Ironshell Blastoise
04-25-2005, 08:25 PM
hmm I agree with you to some extent matthew. But you have to concede that religion is, to some extent, a neccesary outgrowth of any human society. People want to believe in something, they need to. I think it would be a very depressing world if there was no such thing as religion anywhere.

Khold, I agree with you as well. But people need that explanation, no matter how stupid it may seem. Its a convenience more than anything, if not at least a half truth. Trying to perceive our own creation is a daunting task, and when I get to thinking about it, I get truly perplexed.

Also I want to say, who are we as humans to deny or qualify the existence of "god"? We, with our limited knowledge and inability to perceive anything greater then ourselves. Humans tend think they are more important than they really are.

Yes, we are a conceited species, thinking we are better, more important, and superior to anything else we come in contact to.

Anyway, I guess I will just have to live a very uneasy existence, because I can't just accept that some higher being got bored and "wanted to" do something. That just doesn't cut it for me. =\

Alakazam
04-25-2005, 08:39 PM
The thing is, one cannot say that God is nothing more than a figment of our imgainations with any more certainty than one can say that He does exist.

khold: I know what you mean, but I've come to the following conclusion, which goes along the lines of what fing has been saying "God created the world, but I (with the limits of a human mind) cannot fathom it. But even though I don't know exactly what it is, I can rest assured that its there."

All faith stems from optimism anyway, and while questioning faith is an important and healthy thing to do, an obsessive "what if it's all wrong" can only lead to misery.

!CeMAn
04-28-2005, 06:12 AM
you ladies seem 2 have a nice groove going so i won't rile yall up too much, or attempt 2 challenge. i only wish 2 point out the fact that science and religion are, 4 all intents, the same school of thinking: explaination. science is newer so it has that novelty effect where young people are eager 2 jump onboard, possibly 2 avoid looking foolish when the old ideas are inevitably proven wrong. newer = better, right??

neither religion nor science has ANY concrete-100%-absolutely-certain proof of anything; they are simply our best educated guess. anybody who claims 2 be "a man of science" surely was informed of this fact regarding science's flaws early on in his or her career, given the fact that I was told this and i've only got a modest high school diploma, nevermind the extensive education anyone who can validly make such a claim likely has.

have a nice day.

Raine
04-29-2005, 06:48 PM
Iceman:

Science isn't older than religion. The world was created and then let's all pretend (I'm speaking on behalf of the athiests who at most points fail to have an imagination to imagine a God) that God created us. He had to ask questions to himself and science is nothing more than asking a question.

But though it is possible for the universe to be infinite (like the explanation of God) I remain religous because I refuse to go about my life with the insecurity and pain deep within me that when I die in my next years days or weeks, that I will just rot in the ground. I admit to it.

However, humans have not always been here so we can't truely answer the question ourselves how we got here. But there are many possible ways to think and provide an explanation.

You can no more say God isn't real than you can say He is real without the same percentage of either being right.

I believe the only way i know is to experience some Religous even with some outer force. But when you die, then you can talk. (in a comical way ofcourse)

Incongruity
04-29-2005, 07:09 PM
so are you guys trying to prove that science is as ridicluous as religion, or that religion is as credible as science?

I myself personally believe we will rot to the ground. Like any other organism, our body will cease to function.

In a way, though, we've already experienced death. To me, death is just the absence of life. Therefore, what happens after life, in my opinion, is just like what happened before life; absolutely nothing. After death, our brain will stop functioning, as it certainly didn't function hundreds of years ago. Our bodies will decompose just like any other organism's.


I mean, humans really are kind of conceited. Why should what happens to us be any different from what happens to any other organism?


Meh, whatever.


just a few questions though:

-Do you guys take everything in your religious teachings literally? I mean, do you seriously believe everything in your religious text word for word? If so, tell me why.

-If you believe its just a vague idea (as opposed to taking it literally), and the only true thing is that a divine being exists, how do you know that your religion is correct?

This isn't to prove a point, just curiousity on my part.

Alakazam
04-29-2005, 07:30 PM
you ladies seem 2 have a nice groove going so i won't rile yall up too much, or attempt 2 challenge. i only wish 2 point out the fact that science and religion are, 4 all intents, the same school of thinking: explaination. science is newer so it has that novelty effect where young people are eager 2 jump onboard, possibly 2 avoid looking foolish when the old ideas are inevitably proven wrong. newer = better, right??

neither religion nor science has ANY concrete-100%-absolutely-certain proof of anything; they are simply our best educated guess. anybody who claims 2 be "a man of science" surely was informed of this fact regarding science's flaws early on in his or her career, given the fact that I was told this and i've only got a modest high school diploma, nevermind the extensive education anyone who can validly make such a claim likely has.

have a nice day.

!CeMAn, stop talking down to us as if we've all been missing some big part of this topic that only The Great !CeMAn can explain. It's getting old. And if you don't wanna challenge other's opinions, than why are you posting here in OG in the first place?

newer=better? Of course not, not in all cases. I assume you were kidding about that, but just in case...

ssk >

-Do you guys take everything in your religious teachings literally? I mean, do you seriously believe everything in your religious text word for word? If so, tell me why.

No, I don't. That's what we call religious fundamentalism....I call it ignorance / a serious lack of rational thought.

-If you believe its just a vague idea (as opposed to taking it literally), and the only true thing is that a divine being exists, how do you know that your religion is correct?

What do you mean by "correct"? More accurate than another? I don't know that, and it doesn't bother me in the least. I believe that all religions worship the same God anyway, so it really doesn't matter in the end.

Incongruity
04-29-2005, 08:16 PM
ah, zam, nice to know you're one of the more tolerant ones.

Anyways, I've been reading back a bit, and I realize many of you just believe in a divine being as a source of comfort.

But isn't this sort of like an imaginary friend? They provide comfort, especially for young children who have few family members around their age. Not only that, you can't disprove the existence of an imaginary friend. And yet, it is a normal part of development, and at times, it is beneficial.

Raine
04-29-2005, 11:51 PM
SSK-


Science isn't ridiculous. We have gotten pretty far with it, but what I'm saying is science can't explain why we're here. Religion explains it but we have no proof of religion being right. There are some places in the bible you can go to and see first hand where and how it would happen. But though as a christian, I still don't think that prooves anything but some guy could've seen this stuff and wrote in the bible a little story to go along.


You have to use your imagination. Afterall if an atheist can't use his/her imagination, that goes against science as well. They just tend not to imagine for a few seconds that there is an outerforce, or quiet a few I've come in contact with.

They tend to believe we could have been here for all of eternity (or atleast the universe) but for me...I believe that even if the universe were infinitly here the chances of matter coliding in this exaact spot making the earth and such, right where it needed to be to have it's perfect temperatures, and that it would be an exact circle, and then this layer of ozone is formed.

I belive in my religion just because of that, and I have no other explaintion. The thoery of evolution against creationism, evolution is in my oppinion is certainly much weeker. What I'm saying is, you have to ask yourself "how did the organisms get there for us to evolve in the firstplace if there can't be any more life around our solar system that we know of". I don't think it is possible for humans and organisms to form from plasma.

What I'd like to see is a science try to create one, a human being, from fire and lightning and try to manipulate it. I belive all it takes to belive in religion is a little thought, to think us humans could get here from out of thin air. How could the functions in our body be perfect for us to live? That is another question that seems is hard to answer.


What is your explanation of us being here and everything being perfect?

Anyways, I don't look at whom I believe as the almight force as an imaginary friend. This is something atheists could never understand, that our faith is what tells us our being is real. For a lot of christians we just have a strong belief in our God. I guess you could say we just know it's right. I ask you not to comment on this however, an atheist couldn't understand why our faith is so strong. You'd have to be religious before you could.


Now onto answering your questions.

-not ALL christians do, but I for one do. It's like I've mentioned before, it's just a strong faith. We don't know. We just sense I guess is the word.

-once again, it's a strong belief. Anyways this isn't arguing that our religion is correct. It is arguing on behalf of religion in general. Which is right is a different debate entirly.

manectrics_shockwave
04-29-2005, 11:58 PM
Well I for one think God is real and no matter what anyone says I beleive in him and thats my opinion.

Incongruity
04-30-2005, 12:50 AM
Science isn't ridiculous. We have gotten pretty far with it, but what I'm saying is science can't explain why we're here. Religion explains it but we have no proof of religion being right. There are some places in the bible you can go to and see first hand where and how it would happen. But though as a christian, I still don't think that prooves anything but some guy could've seen this stuff and wrote in the bible a little story to go along.

Just as you said, we've gone far with it. How do we know we're at the end though. Progress can still be made. At first, we didn't know how the first life came. But organic compounds have been made from what was believed to have been the earth's earliest atmosphere. More recently, NASA has made amino acids in an environment that resembles deep space. These compounds gave way for heterotrophs to evolve, and then autotrophs, then aerobic organisms, and so on and so forth.

And about the Bible. It's so vague that you can assume anything from it. Not only that, the current Bible is so corrupted from years and years of editing, translating, translating again, cutting out, and etc that it doesn't even resemble what the original probably was. If you believe in what the Bible says (which you said you don't, fortunately) there's concrete proof that George W. Bush is the devil (which he isn't, btw. I don't like him, but he's not Satan.)

You have to use your imagination. Afterall if an atheist can't use his/her imagination, that goes against science as well. They just tend not to imagine for a few seconds that there is an outerforce, or quiet a few I've come in contact with.

I've imagined for around.... 9 years that an outer force exists. No particular event caused me to change, I simply grew up out of my religion. I still imagine today, but I just can't make sense of it. do not accuse me of "never having been a real Christian"

They tend to believe we could have been here for all of eternity (or atleast the universe) but for me...I believe that even if the universe were infinitly here the chances of matter coliding in this exaact spot making the earth and such, right where it needed to be to have it's perfect temperatures, and that it would be an exact circle, and then this layer of ozone is formed.

Meh, the universe is big. Its enormous. Now, the chances of all of those factors happening at once are small (even though its really not as many factors as you show it to be, since one thing can cause another), but if you compare it to the scale of the universe, it would happen despite the probability. For example, if there are a million marbles, and 1% are blue, there are still quite a few blue marbles there.

I belive in my religion just because of that, and I have no other explaintion. The thoery of evolution against creationism, evolution is in my oppinion is certainly much weeker. What I'm saying is, you have to ask yourself "how did the organisms get there for us to evolve in the firstplace if there can't be any more life around our solar system that we know of". I don't think it is possible for humans and organisms to form from plasma.

Heterotroph hypothesis. Organic compounds can form from almost nothingness, organisms and organic compounds aren't that far away, especially the most simple ones. In my opinion, creationism is just a weak theory (especially the ones that go "well could the big bang create itself" :rolleyes: which just leads to an infinite "well who created god" pointless argument)

What I'd like to see is a science try to create one, a human being, from fire and lightning and try to manipulate it. I belive all it takes to belive in religion is a little thought, to think us humans could get here from out of thin air. How could the functions in our body be perfect for us to live? That is another question that seems is hard to answer.

organic compounds have formed out of thin air, not too far from the simplest organisms. Archaebacteria can live in such harsh conditions, and organisms affect their environment. In time, the environment changed and allowed certain organisms to evolve, and others who weren't well suited to the environment died

What is your explanation of us being here and everything being perfect?

If you mean perfect living conditions, the organisms that have the best traits live on and reproduce. Let's say there are 10 grasshoppers, but the environment is only good for two of them. Those two are going to reproduce. Therefore, the environment is "perfect" for the descendents of those two to live in. And it went from simple organisms to complex ones because every organism affects its surroundings.

Anyways, I don't look at whom I believe as the almight force as an imaginary friend. This is something atheists could never understand, that our faith is what tells us our being is real. For a lot of christians we just have a strong belief in our God. I guess you could say we just know it's right. I ask you not to comment on this however, an atheist couldn't understand why our faith is so strong. You'd have to be religious before you could.

as you requested, no comment.

!CeMAn
04-30-2005, 01:01 AM
!CeMAn, stop talking down to us as if we've all been missing some big part of this topic that only The Great !CeMAn can explain. It's getting old. And if you don't wanna challenge other's opinions, than why are you posting here in OG in the first place?

newer=better? Of course not, not in all cases. I assume you were kidding about that, but just in case...

LMAO...

settle down sparky. just go back 2 proving how right you always are :rolleyes:.

Alakazam
04-30-2005, 03:44 AM
Raine: You take everything in the Bible literally? .....really? Might I ask "why?"

Dragon Lover
05-09-2005, 05:00 PM
I beleive in god 'cause i have to. Dont start bombarding me with question because i aint over 13 yet...well anyway i beleive in god. The Quran says it so. The bible and quran are almost the sames only with different ways of worship. This is just my Opinion on things.

IT
05-09-2005, 05:22 PM
I beleive in god 'cause i have to. Dont start bombarding me with question because i aint over 13 yet...well anyway i beleive in god. The Quran says it so. The bible and quran are almost the sames only with different ways of worship. This is just my Opinion on things.

Doesn't the Quran say that you have to pray, was it 5 times a day towards the Mekka/Mecca? Is quran really that strict? From what I've heard, it is...but my knowledge is limited,very limited to be exact... :cool: It's just that we have religion lessons here in Finland and our teacher said that Muslims obey the Quran very strictly and they do these pilgrims trips and pray alot, just wondering how it really is like. I'm evangelical lutheran and I don't know whether to believe in God or not since if there is a God, why does he/she punish us humans with wars,diseases,terrorism,earthquakes,tidal waves,storms,Michael Jackson,hurricanes etc.?

Incongruity
05-09-2005, 10:43 PM
lol, Michael Jackson

Anyways, from what I know of the Q'aran, Koran, Qoran, w/e, (also very limited, seeing as how I live in a jewish community; a very biased one) there are the 5 pillars. Some people probably do adhere strictly to the religion, but the haj to Mecca is only if one has the resources and the ability to do so.


Anyways, we ALL know God is real; after all, the Bible says so! And the Bible's real cause God said so in the Bible.

Finglonger
05-10-2005, 03:29 AM
Anyways, we ALL know God is real; after all, the Bible says so! And the Bible's real cause God said so in the Bible.

heh, I like the not so subtle sarcasm.

But a good point nonetheless. Blind faith has always confounded me, and religion seems almost a happy coincidence. It has always puzzled me how people who fervently believe in their own religion over all others really only believe in that religion because they happened to be born into it. (thats true Imo about 90% of the time).

Dragon Lover
05-10-2005, 12:14 PM
Doesn't the Quran say that you have to pray, was it 5 times a day towards the Mekka/Mecca? Is quran really that strict? From what I've heard, it is...but my knowledge is limited,very limited to be exact... :cool: It's just that we have religion lessons here in Finland and our teacher said that Muslims obey the Quran very strictly and they do these pilgrims trips and pray alot, just wondering how it really is like. I'm evangelical lutheran and I don't know whether to believe in God or not since if there is a God, why does he/she punish us humans with wars,diseases,terrorism,earthquakes,tidal waves,storms,Michael Jackson,hurricanes etc.?

Well yes you are right we have to pray towards Mecca only and five times a day. We have to obey the five pillars. There is a part in the Quran that says "teach the child how to pray when he is 7 and if he doesnt pray until he is 9 then you can hit him". Well it wasnt exactly like that but similar. Oh and he punished us with Michael Jackson because he thought it would be funny to see somebody like him. J/k

God has plagued us with natural and artificial disasters because (SERIOUSLY NO OFFENCE ITS JUST MY RELEGION) other religions started showing up apart from his own so he statrted to punish us...well something like that anyway...

Thats it i guess. I would say more but i have to go to Quran tutions...and its my oral exams...*groan*

~DL~

Edit:Eh, icame back and to sk's statement you have to go to Haj atleast once in your life. No exceptions. If you dont go...you go to hell as simple as that. If you are curious or need a refresher here are the five pillars of Islam:

1:Salah.
______________________
2:Zakat.
______________________
3:Fasting.
______________________
4:Haj.
______________________
5:Jihad.

Salah is prayers, Zakat is giving money to the poor, Fasting is wel...fasting in the month of Ramadan, Haj is pilgramaje to Makkah and Jihad is fighting for you religion and fighting with everything bad in you.

IT
05-11-2005, 07:23 PM
Well yes you are right we have to pray towards Mecca only and five times a day. We have to obey the five pillars. There is a part in the Quran that says "teach the child how to pray when he is 7 and if he doesnt pray until he is 9 then you can hit him". Well it wasnt exactly like that but similar. Oh and he punished us with Michael Jackson because he thought it would be funny to see somebody like him. .

So our teacher isn't that dumb at all...Cool, so have your parents hit you? :wink: But Michael Jackson was black before, wasn't he? :cool: And to sk, I don't think that the Bible is what I believe in, although the evangelical lutheran church is also known as "the church of words" meaning that the Bible is very important. So Dragon Lover, you say that because people broke the 10 rules(or whatever), God starts punishing us, although he should be merciful and giving. makes no sense, does it? But I personally think that there is greater force behind this world than God, God is just an apprentice to "the big Donald Trump" who created even the space where God created his own world, the Earth. That makes sense to me.

Bashaamo
05-13-2005, 04:50 AM
I don't bother myself with thinking about the questions about the dawn of the universe, formation/creation of earth, or the evolution of man.

Mainstream Catholics (such as myself) hold Genesis as allegory, and have accepted the big bang and evolution a long time ago.

Old Testament stories are nice, but are really not that important. Whatever happend beofe Jesus happend. Point is Jeusus came on earth around 3 AD. Jeusus is my savior and will come again (hopefully soon).

You can argue anthropological evidence and scientific fact w/ me as long as you want, but as far as I'm concrened nothing before Jesus adds up to a hill of beans.

I also don't see why so many atheists are atheists because they don't think God could have created himself. Isn't that the whole idea of God, something unimaginally complex. I think beliving that a god came out of nothing is a lot easier to accept than the idea that a universe(s) came out of nothing. Its gotta start at a point. And even if science can prove that God didn't create the universe, why is there a universe to begin with!!! Or anything. Look deeper people.

Bash

Kenny_C.002
05-13-2005, 05:45 AM
Looking into the human mind then.

Ra was the sun god, created solely because humans didn't know how the sun got there.
Zeus is the god of thunder, who apparently creates thunder.

Okay, so there are several to many gods that are used to explain what cannot be explained (thanks scientific minds! It is this step that made science possible! :)). So for the Big Bang, we can't explain it right now, so we'll just say there's a supreme being that did it. But we can't really agree on a single Supreme Being or Supreme Beings who did it, since there are so many different religions to go about.

Now IT has a good suggestion there. If there was some even great being, then the "problems" are solved. That "Even Great Being" can create all these Gods of the different major and minor religions for the people, and thus no problem. It's elegant, but it's still a guess from the human mind, like Ra and Zeus, since we really don't know.

!CeMAn
05-14-2005, 04:48 AM
look at the universe. look at our planet. look at the complexities of our bodies. it had to be SOMEBODY'S ideas; it's just too perfect to be unplanned or unorganised by something. that's GOD.

Bashaamo
05-14-2005, 05:01 AM
Looking into the human mind then.

Ra was the sun god, created solely because humans didn't know how the sun got there.
Zeus is the god of thunder, who apparently creates thunder.

Okay, so there are several to many gods that are used to explain what cannot be explained (thanks scientific minds! It is this step that made science possible! :)). So for the Big Bang, we can't explain it right now, so we'll just say there's a supreme being that did it. But we can't really agree on a single Supreme Being or Supreme Beings who did it, since there are so many different religions to go about.

Now IT has a good suggestion there. If there was some even great being, then the "problems" are solved. That "Even Great Being" can create all these Gods of the different major and minor religions for the people, and thus no problem. It's elegant, but it's still a guess from the human mind, like Ra and Zeus, since we really don't know.

I disagree with your logic. Nearly every society has had some form of a higher power(s). Some cultures have a god for a certain natural phenomenon, a human activity, or a special time of year. Other cultues have had gods associated with different animans and elements. And some cultures had recognized only one God as a master of all these things.

So nearly every human has an idea of God, that's a fact. There are just numerous ways to go about the worship.

So by your thinking there can't be a god/gods becuase there are too many contradictions. Well I just disagree.

Just look at the diverse nature of human culture. The way people dress, what they eat, how they create art, how the make war, etc etc. And this can vary much from tribe to tribe, even more across continents.

So if every human has had different experiences with those aspects of cuture, it is possible that these different peolpe are all experiencing the same god(s) but because of there vast societal differences have different ways of representing them and worshipping them.

My god could very well be Zeus, Ra, and Thor all rolled into one.

Who knows!

!CeMAn
05-14-2005, 08:06 PM
to make a half- quote from the movie dogma:

"it doesn't matter what you have faith in, as long as you have faith."

Kenny_C.002
05-15-2005, 04:30 AM
I disagree with your logic. Nearly every society has had some form of a higher power(s). Some cultures have a god for a certain natural phenomenon, a human activity, or a special time of year. Other cultues have had gods associated with different animans and elements. And some cultures had recognized only one God as a master of all these things.

So nearly every human has an idea of God, that's a fact. There are just numerous ways to go about the worship.

So by your thinking there can't be a god/gods becuase there are too many contradictions. Well I just disagree.

Just look at the diverse nature of human culture. The way people dress, what they eat, how they create art, how the make war, etc etc. And this can vary much from tribe to tribe, even more across continents.

So if every human has had different experiences with those aspects of cuture, it is possible that these different peolpe are all experiencing the same god(s) but because of there vast societal differences have different ways of representing them and worshipping them.

My god could very well be Zeus, Ra, and Thor all rolled into one.

Who knows!

Well we know what the sun is, so there isn't a need for Ra. We know how lightning and thunder are made, so Zeus and Thor seems pointless.

We don't know how the universe is created, thus our best explanation is "a supreme being". And even at that, what's stopping this "Supreme Being" from being the creator of your god and all the other gods right now?

I don't know. I can't truly say that there is definitely this god that created the universe, and we don't know whether this can happen "naturally" or not, so there isn't any sort of conlcusion in any possible way. As one can say, it is faith to believe in a god, but it is also faith to believe this all began with nature (science).

Iceman, All I can say with your argument is that there are Creationists that agree evolutino exists, and thus this means that our bodies are born from evolution, and not a specific design. Also, the earth, sun, etc. are sometimes argued by Creationists as "a supreme being that created the big bang that caused this planet to just happen to be at the right place". It's all too vague to say whether it's really "a supreme being" or just some other mechanism, as you can see that Creationists agree with both with the rest believing only in the mechanism.

Bashaamo
05-15-2005, 06:23 AM
Even if we can prove that there is a natural cause for the creation of the universe, a la Theory of Everything that would not rule out the existence of God.

For example. Say I go and build a model out of LEGO. A scientist could come along, determine which LEGo pieces I used, what order they were assembled in, the age of the bricks, and what the model I built was. But would the scientist every know why?

It can be proved that the universe is comprised of atoms, photons, and dark matter, it can be proven that life began in the sea, it can be proven that man evolved from apes, but will there ever be an explanation about why?

Why is there matter anyway? Why does matter behave the way it did? Why does something come out of nothing? When did it all start? When will it stop?

Why? Is something science won't be able to tell us.

God is the answer to these questions for me. But like I said matters like these concern me very little becuase of my faith in the salvation that Jesus will bring.

-Bash

Kenny_C.002
05-16-2005, 05:04 AM
As one can say, it is faith to believe in a god, but it is also faith to believe this all began with nature (science).

That is all I have to say, Bash. ;)

No seriously, I'm fine that you believe that. Good for you too, since religion is a nice way to gain spiritual strength. But in all, it is still faith. I dont' place faith in itself for a god or no, so I guess I don't have faith in the origin of the universe then. lol

!CeMAn
05-16-2005, 10:58 PM
Iceman, All I can say with your argument is that there are Creationists that agree evolutino exists, and thus this means that our bodies are born from evolution, and not a specific design. Also, the earth, sun, etc. are sometimes argued by Creationists as "a supreme being that created the big bang that caused this planet to just happen to be at the right place". It's all too vague to say whether it's really "a supreme being" or just some other mechanism, as you can see that Creationists agree with both with the rest believing only in the mechanism.

my point was that even though our earth and bodies may have gotten to this point through time and evolution, what iS evolution but something somewhere saying "ok, what can be done to make this better?"? it's like when you investigate a murder scene and things look way to clean or easy to be accidental. that's how i feel when i look at life on earth; too perfect.

Kenny_C.002
05-17-2005, 05:51 AM
my point was that even though our earth and bodies may have gotten to this point through time and evolution, what iS evolution but something somewhere saying "ok, what can be done to make this better?"? it's like when you investigate a murder scene and things look way to clean or easy to be accidental. that's how i feel when i look at life on earth; too perfect.

Evolution by definition is a directionless, mechanistic process that is driven by natural selection and drift (genetic changes in a population). The "design" that you speak of is not "what can be done to make this better", but "the one who was the fittest will be the majority of the next generation". Thus although the meanings may seem similar, the difference is that the fittest was not designed to be fitter, it just happened to be fittest in that environment.

Where we differ here is how "clean" this case really is. Why go through all the lengths to design vestigial organs if they were not needed in the first place? Why do whales have "finger bones" when they don't even have fingers (this is an example btw)? Why do we have a useless appendix that just gets infections half the time and just stick around doing nothing the other half of the time? How come we have this strange fusion of air duct and food duct, which mades choking possible? Evolution is far from perfect, and life on earth are far from perfect too. IMO, if it is perfect, then we wouldn't be losing millions of species every day, as organisms will be able to live well in many situations if that is the case, and our planet wouldn't be so fragile...

Basically, I'm targetting two specific areas: the definition of evolution that you said, and "too perfect". i've given off my two cents from what i've learned anyway. ;)

!CeMAn
05-17-2005, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by Kenny_C.002
Evolution by definition is a directionless, mechanistic process that is driven by natural selection and drift (genetic changes in a population). The "design" that you speak of is not "what can be done to make this better", but "the one who was the fittest will be the majority of the next generation". Thus although the meanings may seem similar, the difference is that the fittest was not designed to be fitter, it just happened to be fittest in that environment.

Where we differ here is how "clean" this case really is. Why go through all the lengths to design vestigial organs if they were not needed in the first place? Why do whales have "finger bones" when they don't even have fingers (this is an example btw)? Why do we have a useless appendix that just gets infections half the time and just stick around doing nothing the other half of the time? How come we have this strange fusion of air duct and food duct, which mades choking possible? Evolution is far from perfect, and life on earth are far from perfect too. IMO, if it is perfect, then we wouldn't be losing millions of species every day, as organisms will be able to live well in many situations if that is the case, and our planet wouldn't be so fragile...

Basically, I'm targetting two specific areas: the definition of evolution that you said, and "too perfect". i've given off my two cents from what i've learned anyway. ;)

So,

The definition of evolution is, to shorten yours, directionless? Fair enough. But, something causes it. Whether science claims it to be a mechanistic process or I claim it to be "something somewhere". i think we are seeing eye to eye on evolution, just perhaps from different perspectives or different points in the process. Of course the fittest was fittest to survive in that environment. But how can you say that it wasn't MADE to be fittest? What am i missing here?

Allow me to bore you with basic knowledge of biology that you probably already know:

Organisms change over time. The human body is a fine example. We are in the very process of evolution (as every organism constantly is). Wisdom teeth are one example. it's become apparant to something that we no longer need those extra teeth and it's reached the point where their growth causes most people unnecessary discomfort. Some people don't even have wisdom teeth and won't ever. Humans are being made better, and more fit to thrive in their environment. Tail bones are getting smaller aswell. Since we don't have tails anymore what's the purpose of having them? Our tonsils and appendix also, at one point in time, served a purpose based on our environment but don't any longer. Hence when they get infected it's no biggie to just cut them out. i'm fairly certain that eventually, maybe when this tail bone and wisdom teeth thing is sorted out, we simply won't have those organs.

To leap back to the topic at hand briefly, i'd like to state that perhaps God isn't perfect. All these things that seem pointless to you or me like finger bones is merely evidence that God is trying things out in order to determine which is the most fit and best suited. if we could stick around for a long enough time we might see that whales eventually wouldn't have them bones, OR, whales will have fingers :eek:. Maybe we willl have separate ducts for breathing and swallowing(although iMO, that little flap which prevents food from getting into our lungs is a pretty decent space saver :wink:). Give evolution the time it needs! Life is by no means at it's final stage.

As for the frailty of our planet, if what you mean is that we could pollute, burn and remove essential aspects of these species' environment and they would still thrive then i don't think it quite works that way. We're not talking about a tree getting cut down once in a while and a monkey not being able to go on, we're talking about large quantities of an environment becoming corrupted at such a rapid rate that various organisms simply don't have time to adapt. i don't agree the planet is fragile; we're just too much. All you're asking for is organisms that could adapt quicker than us and kick the crap out of us. Bite your tongue.

When i call life "perfect" i'm pointing out the design. Look at our human bodies. it's such a complex machine that i refuse to believe it's not something's ideas. Trees giving off oxygen, but needing water to nourish them, the cycle of all things. Dude, it's organised. Maybe not perfect, that is a strong word, but it's definitely organised and personally i find it beautiful.

Now, i've given off my two cents based on what i've learned :wink:.

Incongruity
05-17-2005, 10:22 PM
Iceman, while I'm sure you could come up with an excellent argument for your point, considering its potential, that was... worst example EVAR. (the evolution part)


the thing is, humans are not evolving. Every organism is unique, and one of our unique characteristics is slightly higher mental function. We have something known as compassion. For example, let's examine genetic diseases. If we were evolving, those with genetic diseases would die out, and those without would survive. However, we have doctors, medicine, etc., so those with genetic diseases survive.

Another note, it seems you're confusing modern evolution with LaMarck's theory of evolution. Just because we don't use our tails or wisdom teeth does not mean we lose them.

If we were to eventually lose them (which is quite possible) something like the following would happen, (as opposed to your idea of losing them because we don't use them) Mutation: Because of various factors, one member of a generation will be different. Let's use lack of an appendix as an example (Mutation clearly happens, it is simply more visible in lower organisms because of things like faster rates of reproduction) Now, let's assume we don't have surgery to remove the appendix. People get apendicitis no matter what. To speed up this process, let's imagine a massive outburst of apendicitis The person(s) without appendices would survive, as they would not get apendicitis While the person(s) with appendices would die Then the person without appendices lives on, reproduces, and all of a sudden, the human species has lost the appendix (but not because it's useless. It just so happened that the appendix was an undesirable trait in this purely fictional situation)

This isn't to say that your argument is wrong, just the part talking about evolution could have been done better.


(edit: NM, It was at 3:00 AM, that's probably why)

Bashaamo
05-18-2005, 12:54 AM
I agree with SK for once :eek:

Your concept of evolution is wrong. Just because something is no longer needed doesn't mean it will go away, such as wisdom teeth. Even if a human was born with no wisdom teeth, there would still be way more humans with them, and not having wisdom teeth won't give you a better advantage over the next.

In Human socitey everyone (well almost) can survive and reproduce quite easily (compared to some species). Although you may notice some gradual changes; longer lift, taller, stronger etc., This is usually caused by technological improvements and diet, drugs, but essentially today's human is the same as the human of today is the same as he was 10,000 years ago.

IMO Humans will only evolve in the future if:

Another Racial Cleansing Occurs
A disease kills off a percentage of the population
Nuclear radiation

I don't know if your consider cyborgs of genetic alteration an evolution, but that technology is not far off!

To leap back to the topic at hand briefly, i'd like to state that perhaps God isn't perfect. All these things that seem pointless to you or me like finger bones is merely evidence that God is trying things out in order to determine which is the most fit and best suited.

Well if you belive in the bible this is true because God created man, then realized that man was a bad idea, so he killed them all except a few (see Noah and the Flood) and started over.

I disagree though that God isn't perfect. IMO if there is a god, he would have to be perfect because the universe would be based on his will and laws. Whale's having finger bones might not make sense to us mere mortals, but to him, it mike seem like a great idea.

-Bashaamo

!CeMAn
05-18-2005, 02:18 AM
umm, yeah...

Bash, the bible isn't true. Sorry. God didn't flood the earth and let Noah and his posse live.

i think God is not perfect and all-knowing the way He is built up in the propaga- a mean the Bible. He created humans in His image and we are by no means perfect creatures. We can't know what will happen one day from the next and i'm willing to guess He doesn't either. That is where our free will comes from.

You don't think that NOT HAViNG painful extra teeth forcing their way through your shorter gumline is an advantage? Well i do. Look at our society the way it is meant to be seen, and not as it is; without all our fancy drugs and surgery. if your wisdom teeth were causing you great pain you probably wouldn't be able to eat as easily in the wild as if you didn't have them to begin with. Just opening your mouth to take a bite of something would cause intense distress and prevent you from eating and therefore you'd probably die.

Are you sure about not needing something doesn't mean it will go away? Either of you, tell me why we don't have tails any more. i'm hoping you can prove your arguments. While you're at it, explain why some people are born without wisdom teeth. Don't give me it's mutation, because we all know that part. Tell me why THAT is the mutation.

Of course humans today are the same as 10 000 years ago. 10 000 years is about 1 day when you considered how long the planet has been around.

You seem to believe that evolution occurs all at once. Like pokemon. That one day many humans will be born with no tail. it doesn't work that way. it takes thousands of years. Trust me, humans are still evolving. We just can't tell.

ssk, i'm sorry, but do you believe that a human would be born with no appendix for no reason, BEFORE a massive outbreak of appendicitis? i think it would be the other way around. A human would lack that organ BECAUSE all it does is get infected, not "just cuz".

Bashaamo
05-18-2005, 05:38 AM
:biggrin: [QUOTE=!CeMAn]umm, yeah...

Bash, the bible isn't true. Sorry. God didn't flood the earth and let Noah and his posse live.

That is why I said if you belive in the bible. I never said it was true, I belive most of the bible is allegory.

i think God is not perfect and all-knowing the way He is built up in the propaga- a mean the Bible. He created humans in His image and we are by no means perfect creatures. We can't know what will happen one day from the next and i'm willing to guess He doesn't either. That is where our free will comes from.

God Created humans in his image. But he still created a separate race, only it looked like him, that does not equate to moral, spiritual, or physical prefection. And if there is a God, the Universe is governed by his laws and mind. Of course he knows what will happen in the future.

You don't think that NOT HAViNG painful extra teeth forcing their way through your shorter gumline is an advantage? Well i do. Look at our society the way it is meant to be seen, and not as it is; without all our fancy drugs and surgery. if your wisdom teeth were causing you great pain you probably wouldn't be able to eat as easily in the wild as if you didn't have them to begin with. Just opening your mouth to take a bite of something would cause intense distress and prevent you from eating and therefore you'd probably die.

Civilization hasn't been around for as long as our race. People had to make due without medecine and doctors for 1,000s of years. And I doubt 1 mutated human would be able to spread his gene pool across the human race with just that one advantage.


Are you sure about not needing something doesn't mean it will go away? Either of you, tell me why we don't have tails any more. i'm hoping you can prove your arguments. While you're at it, explain why some people are born without wisdom teeth. Don't give me it's mutation, because we all know that part. Tell me why THAT is the mutation.

Simple, humans with the tails were not as well adapted to their environment. Tailess apes and tailed apes most certainly coexsisted for centuries, untill tailed great apes died out.

Of course humans today are the same as 10 000 years ago. 10 000 years is about 1 day when you considered how long the planet has been around.

Captain Obvious strikes again !

You seem to believe that evolution occurs all at once. Like pokemon. That one day many humans will be born with no tail. it doesn't work that way. it takes thousands of years. Trust me, humans are still evolving. We just can't tell.

Putting words in my mouth now. That is getting me mad. I never said that, or anything like that. Evolution takes 1,000 of years, and often the "new" species will coexist witht he other for a long time.

Bashaamo

Kenny_C.002
05-18-2005, 06:13 AM
humans are still evolving

Yes this is true, but the fact that we humans have also defied the laws of nature using medicine. So while we are evolving, we are evolving at a rate that is MUCH slower than that of a normal population of animals. Besides that point, there is a fairly good mix of genes due to transportation, andthus one of the easier mechanisms of evolution, physical barriers, is missing in the equation. Besides the point, natural selection isn't selecting very well either duee to medicine. With basically only mutation as the only source of evolution (since drift and selection are gone from the equation), generally any difference within the human race will be eliminated at that same generation. It's not to say that we are not evolving, but we are evolving at an alarmingly slow rate.

You don't think that NOT HAViNG painful extra teeth forcing their way through your shorter gumline is an advantage? Well i do. Look at our society the way it is meant to be seen, and not as it is; without all our fancy drugs and surgery. if your wisdom teeth were causing you great pain you probably wouldn't be able to eat as easily in the wild as if you didn't have them to begin with. Just opening your mouth to take a bite of something would cause intense distress and prevent you from eating and therefore you'd probably die.

Actually Wisdom teeth had function back then, since we never had dentistry back then. ;)

Are you sure about not needing something doesn't mean it will go away? Either of you, tell me why we don't have tails any more. i'm hoping you can prove your arguments. While you're at it, explain why some people are born without wisdom teeth. Don't give me it's mutation, because we all know that part. Tell me why THAT is the mutation.

Hm? We have the bones, but not the actual tails themselves. So if you're talking technical, well we still do have tails. Remember that we may have evolved from an ancestor that never had a tail in the first place (okay we did), so although sometimes when something is not needed it goes away, exceptions happen. It just happens more frequently among the harmless ones (see bottom).

And people who don't have wisdom teeth genetically don't have the programming for it (or have some sort of programming block for it). Simply said, it didn't run in that family. It's not mutation, it's just the genetic pool.

ssk, i'm sorry, but do you believe that a human would be born with no appendix for no reason, BEFORE a massive outbreak of appendicitis? i think it would be the other way around. A human would lack that organ BECAUSE all it does is get infected, not "just cuz".

You're right, if medicine didn't have the solution for it. If there happens to be the right combination of genes that created a human with no appendix, there is no difference in fitness between that human, a human with an appendix, or a human with an appendix removed. It would truly need a massive outbreak of a weird appendix-based disease to put enough selective pressures to make humans lose the organ itself. But even in that scenerio, we didn't count on people who had their appendices removed, who still carry the appendix genes around. Basically, according to evolution, we won't be losing the teeth, tail, or the appendix anytime soon, because there is no selective pressure.

Bash, cut the "captain obvious" crap.

!CeMAn
05-18-2005, 11:32 PM
Kenny, i'm glad at least you have a solid head on your shoulders. i can't even respond much to your post because you're right iMO. Give it up for Canucks :wink:. i agree with your take on medicine and it's effect on out evolution. We are adapting to a different environment than other animals because of technology, medicine and the foods we eat. if you're not squemish you should PM me and ask my theories on hermaphrodites and homosexuals...

Bash i'm not even going to answer you.

Bashaamo
05-18-2005, 11:49 PM
Kenny, i'm glad at least you have a solid head on your shoulders. i can't even respond much to your post because you're right iMO. Give it up for Canucks :wink:. i agree with your take on medicine and it's effect on out evolution. We are adapting to a different environment than other animals because of technology, medicine and the foods we eat. if you're not squemish you should PM me and ask my theories on hermaphrodites and homosexuals...

Bash i'm not even going to answer you.

And why not? You put words in my mouth, and I corrected you. And we have differing opinions on things. This is other discussion you know, not other concensus.

BTW, Adaptation does not = evolution

But go ahead, don't respond to me.

-Bash

double o G
05-19-2005, 01:16 AM
I say evolution is not real.I dont care about your opinions.Religion causes arguments.Im a cristian(Baptist).Even though other religions are cristian,We STILL ARGUE.How coud we evolve from animals in the sea tell me. how.

!CeMAn
05-19-2005, 04:34 AM
You want a response, BASH? Here's one:

You claim you don't believe the bible is true- that most of it is "allegory". Yet you believe in it enough to believe that humans "look" like God. That's a joke considering our first distinguishable appearance looked an awful lot like apes. Perhaps God looks like an ape then? if He created us to "look" like him, why did we have so many appearances over the millenia? Furthermore do you believe that THiS is our final form? is THiS God's appearance?

i choose not to respond to you because you don't even answer my questions. in fact, i'm not even sure what your point was.

Here is my question:
Are you sure about not needing something doesn't mean it will go away? Either of you, tell me why we don't have tails any more. i'm hoping you can prove your arguments. While you're at it, explain why some people are born without wisdom teeth. Don't give me it's mutation, because we all know that part. Tell me why THAT is the mutation.

Here is your response:
Simple, humans with the tails were not as well adapted to their environment. Tailess apes and tailed apes most certainly coexsisted for centuries, untill tailed great apes died out.

You told me why "tailed apes" may have died out. You didn't tell me why some apes didn't even have tails.

BTW, i know adaptation doesn't mean evolution. if i meant evolution, i would have said evolution.

Kenny_C.002
05-19-2005, 04:42 AM
Yeah, I'm good on those stuff Iceman, I think I'll be in contact with them real soon, and possibly to the point of me going insane (I'm going to be taking genetics courses in the near future). lol

Double o G: But you have to note that there is absolutely no proof that there is design as well. Lemark (or however you spell him) had to admit that there were generations before humans to counter the point of fossil records. Nowadays, we're finding more and more fossil records that link between us humans and other species, and ancestors in between. To say that it's impossible for evolution to start in water and move up on land is like saying an archaebacteria can never evolve to become eukaryotic. Sure it may take a long time, but with the sulfuric (and other inorganic) chemicals running low and the toxic oxygen levels running high, you're bound to get land animals.

Bash: Yup. Adaption is not evolution, since adaption is essentially more in terms of the individual and evolution applies to the population.

Generally speaking, what I would say Iceman was trying to say was that we essentially eliminate the selective pressures on us at different environments using technology, which means little evolution.

Incongruity
05-19-2005, 08:04 PM
I'll just clear a few things up

-Humans did not evolve from apes. This is well known fact
-Humans and apes evolved from a common ancestor. It is believed this common ancestor has since died out
-Various factors cause variation (I so should have paid more attention in class) but off the top of my head, I can think of two.

The variation can be caused by crossing over of alleles during meiosis, and subsequent recombination to form a generation with variation.

Variation can be caused by mutation.


I'll try and make this more clear; I've gotten kind of rusty on this whole topic.

!CeMAn
05-20-2005, 05:15 AM
Are you bringing up the missing link theory, ssk? As i understood, that was only a theory due to a gap in the evolutionary chain. i too, probably should have been paying more attention in class.


The variation can be caused by crossing over of alleles during meiosis, and subsequent recombination to form a generation with variation.


:confused: What the heck does that mean? is that like when a rabbit and a cat have sex and make 'cabbits'?

King Manyula
05-20-2005, 10:06 PM
[COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]


Okay, first of all, I believe there's a god. With the Big Bang theroy, I don't see how it could exist. Well, they say that there was a cloud of matter, and it exploded, and created more matter. But matter couldn't exist unless it was created by someone or something, and how could utter destruction bring out beauty? Its impossible.


I am 11 too. Anyway, i have to disagree with you there. Basically there was actually a collision of matter, and matter basically is existance. It could bring out "beauty" because as I said it is existance, that's why they call it MATTER and not GOD which is basically DOG spelled backwards. Is it any wonder why the dog is "man's best friend?"


I actually think he spoke himself into existence. Hee hee, kind of weird, but there's good and evil? Perhaps God is the esscense of good itself, and just to created himself to create. And with evil, I think there wasn't any evil in the universe until it was filled with mans greed and hatred. And its not decided that you go to heaven or hell... You make the choice youself. Destiny doesn't exist until you make your own destiny. You could be "destined" to die a horrible death, but you could easily change your life. The point of life is to live it, thats a question that doesn't truly need a answer.
Impossible. You cannot speak yourself to life, and besides where was life before he"spoke himself" to life? But I do agree with you on the destiny part.

Finglonger
05-21-2005, 12:55 AM
I am 11 too. Anyway, i have to disagree with you there. Basically there was actually a collision of matter, and matter basically is existance. It could bring out "beauty" because as I said it is existance, that's why they call it MATTER and not GOD which is basically DOG spelled backwards. Is it any wonder why the dog is "man's best friend?"



Impossible. You cannot speak yourself to life, and besides where was life before he"spoke himself" to life? But I do agree with you on the destiny part.

ok, what in the hell are you talking about. Just shut up please...

Can we please make some coherent arguments? If you have something to say be ready to back it up at least with logic? come on, I mean half of what people say either consists of. "God is real, you can't convince me otherwisse. I know he must be real!!!!1" or "God is not real. I know it. I have no proof, but I know it. The big bang theory, thats a nice theory, but I can't explain it...!!!11!!.

and dont hide behind age, if youre going to do that don't post here. If you have something to say that isn't stupid and isn't offensive than people will respect you despite your age.

sorry about the off topicness, but im tired of the crappy posts...

anyways, back on topic...

Why can't god have been involved in evolution? who is to say that he didn't set the scientific laws of the universe and of this planet specifically and then proceeded to sit back and watch "the show"? Who is to say that the bible isn't one long allegory, just a set of rules to live upon given in the form of stories? some of which may have happened, and some of which may not have happened.

and as for gods mere existence, I can't say whether or not hes actually real. But I can believe in a higher entity. I don't neccesarily believe in the christian god, because of the many diverse religions I think that any true believer has to look at those to, and maybe acknowledge that each of them may have some things right and some things wrong. You have to make a concious choice as to which set of rules you adopt, and in "the end" thats all you have....

Incongruity
05-21-2005, 01:26 AM
Why can't god have been involved in evolution? who is to say that he didn't set the scientific laws of the universe and of this planet specifically and then proceeded to sit back and watch "the show"? Who is to say that the bible isn't one long allegory, just a set of rules to live upon given in the form of stories? some of which may have happened, and some of which may not have happened.

And why can't it be that god doesn't exist? Who is to say that he does exist? Who is to say this or that. What if this or the other. That's basically basing your argument on the entire fact that "We don't know what's true". While this can lead to open-mindedness, one cannot deny another person's close-mindedness, open it up, then close it up in a different way.

and as for gods mere existence, I can't say whether or not hes actually real. But I can believe in a higher entity. I don't neccesarily believe in the christian god, because of the many diverse religions I think that any true believer has to look at those to, and maybe acknowledge that each of them may have some things right and some things wrong. You have to make a concious choice as to which set of rules you adopt, and in "the end" thats all you have....
Meh, I look at the religions as a guide for moral behavior, but nothing more. I am a moral person not because I want to move up the castes, not because I want to reach nirvana, not because I want to reunite with Jesus, not because I'm afraid of hell, but because I feel its the right thing to do. I feel that the morals are all that is necessary, and that the positive/negative reward system is just a psychological factor to control the average person (similar to Pavlov's experiment with the dogs)
basically, it's a what if this what if that situation. So in the end neither side has definite and solid proof to not only disprove, but convince the other side. However, human beings are taught religion. Therefore, the burden of proof is on the side of the believers.

Bashaamo
05-25-2005, 05:24 AM
However, human beings are taught religion. Therefore, the burden of proof is on the side of the believers.

Haven't you ever heard of natural religion (deism). No diest goes to church, belives in the bible, or have any organizational structure. Yet they still belive. Many people come to natural religion and other religions on their own, wheter they were raised a certain way or not.

Religion is not some great evil to get people to behave a certain way (if anything, blame the established churches). Some people go to religion on their own, wheter they feel a spiritual bond, or see their own "proof" though science (or lack there of).

Religion wasn't created in a day.

!CeMAn
05-25-2005, 05:53 AM
I have heard theories that religion and the very concept of God originated from one or more apes' encounter with hallucinogenic fungae and/ or other various vegetables. if anyone has ever been blasted out on magic mushrooms, i'm sure they can argue that you get pretty reflective on your own existence and origins.

double o G
05-25-2005, 09:32 PM
umm evolution can happen because yeas ago tailed apes could climb trees but their tails got in the way.tailess apes could climb trees and get food easily.Taled apes could not so they could not get food and died out.But We humans could not evolve from invertebretes.(Use common sense)Evolution is not real so it could not happen.

Matt
05-25-2005, 10:23 PM
If the universe started as gasses, and then developed to cingle-celled organisms, which evolved into multicelled organisms, where else could humans come from? We are 93% identical to apes, and have evidence that more primitive primates lived before humans existed. Now tell me why evolution isn't real.

double o G
05-25-2005, 10:27 PM
How can gasses turn into Solid Huh Tell me How

!CeMAn
05-25-2005, 10:43 PM
Settle down, man. Don't post crap like that.

Gasses become solids sort of the reverse of how solids become gasses. Like evaporation? There's a whole wild diagram in science that teaches that.

double o G
05-25-2005, 10:51 PM
Oh yeah.But gas beings cant do that.

!CeMAn
05-25-2005, 10:57 PM
i don't think there even iS such a thing as a gas being... i dunno, dude. Bacteria formed under water and that's how life began. i don't know the most when it comes to science.

Matt
05-25-2005, 11:16 PM
How can gasses turn into Solid Huh Tell me How

Gas condensates and freezes, developing tighter molicule structure and becoming solid. I agree on the bacteria idea !CeMan.

absol2005
05-26-2005, 12:11 AM
God doesn't exist. All life on the earth exists by evolution of species and all those animals started as microscopic life beings, evolved into little marine animals and then evolved into dinosaurs. After the crash of a meteorite, only non-lizards survived and adapted themselves to the environment.

Bashaamo
05-26-2005, 01:16 AM
God doesn't exist. All life on the earth exists by evolution of species and all those animals started as microscopic life beings, evolved into little marine animals and then evolved into dinosaurs. After the crash of a meteorite, only non-lizards survived and adapted themselves to the environment.

I think you mean to say that only some lizards survived. Only the larger dinosaurs were killed off (if a mass extinction did occur, there is a theory that some Dinosaurs just evolved into birds). Many smaller lizards were able to survive, which explains why we have them today, just not in dinoriffic size.

Kenny_C.002
06-01-2005, 01:29 AM
Both processes (gas to solid and solid to gas) are known as sublimation.

About religion: I've recently been converted to the side that a scientific mind probably has much to do with religion itself. Basically, religion wasn't taught, but was partially used as an explanation for the natural forces at work, and placed faith in this explanation, thusreligion is born. However, this is only my view of things, which has as much faith as a person saying "god is real" (a supreme being probably is real tho...but that's still my faith).

Now we know that eukaryotic cells evolved from protozoans and the like (prokaryotic cells), and also there are many different animals and organisms of every size, so it's not "impossible" that we may have evolved from hydras or paramecia, but we don't know how the tree of life moved, that's all.

IT
06-01-2005, 05:10 PM
God doesn't exist. All life on the earth exists by evolution of species and all those animals started as microscopic life beings, evolved into little marine animals and then evolved into dinosaurs. After the crash of a meteorite, only non-lizards survived and adapted themselves to the environment.

How can anyone prove that correct? Can prove anything? For example, how can you tell if your keyboard is real. Let's say you're blind,deaf,and can't feel with any part of your body. How will you prove that the keyboard exists? Does anything exist? What if I don't exist, what if you don't exist, what if the universe doesn't exist? Nobody can prove anything. It might be just imagination, hallusinations or whatever. But nobody can prove anything to be real in this world.

Exon Auxus
06-01-2005, 05:54 PM
He's got a point. We need hard evidence to prove things like this. Sometimes I think some of the members of this forum are computerized.

Incongruity
06-01-2005, 08:05 PM
How can anyone prove that correct? Can prove anything? For example, how can you tell if your keyboard is real. Let's say you're blind,deaf,and can't feel with any part of your body. How will you prove that the keyboard exists? Does anything exist? What if I don't exist, what if you don't exist, what if the universe doesn't exist? Nobody can prove anything. It might be just imagination, hallusinations or whatever. But nobody can prove anything to be real in this world.
I've already stated this, and come to the conclusion that the burden of proof is on the side of religion.

however, concerning deists, it is only considered "natural" religion by the deists themselves. Most famous deists (such as... the founding fathers of the United States) were at first influenced by outside religions, and then came to the conclusion that the outside religion was correct, except for divine intervention

Steinbeck reflected these beliefs too. That god was there, but not intervening

However, these are all based on the principle idea that a divine being of some sort exists.

AND I think we all know that deists are a minority, AND even fewer had no outside influence. However, even if ideas were original, they would have to be proven nonetheless. For example, if I say, "This black toyota is purple," I could have gotten that idea naturally. I might have thought of that with no influence. However, I still must prove that the the black toyota is purple. It is not necessary for someone else to indirectly prove that the black toyota is not purple, because it is black. While it can be done, the burden is on me.


and therefore, deism is just like any other religion. It does not need to be disproved.

IT
06-02-2005, 02:45 PM
So, do you actually agree with me ssk?

!CeMAn
06-02-2005, 08:42 PM
Reality is relevant to the individual.