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Incongruity
04-01-2005, 07:12 PM
Before we begin, let's have some background information. Cue fady blurry dream sequence.

I live in a neighborhood which has a jewish majority. So one day, we start talking about France. (edit: oh yea, we got to France because we all have to write like 5 out-of-class essays per quarter, along with normal class curriculum. One guy was mentioning how he wrote something on France) And then some guy talks about how its full of anti-semites. Then some guy talks about how the holocaust was terrible. I'm like alright, but then I say

"The Holocaust is probably the most overrated event in history"

Now, I'm sure that's not TOTALLY correct; I'm sure some other events are even more overrated, but I believe its atleast partially right. I mean, I honestly do believe the Holocaust is very overrated. So there are like 3 other kids around me, all Jewish. They all become very angry. Some person criticizes my grammar, because she has nothing else to attack me with; my grammar was not incorrect. The other guys are all spouting random stuff, and when I mention Nanjing and Stalin, they change the subject. I eventually get them to stop diverting the argument to foolish hypothetical situations. The smartest one out of them says how Stalin didn't kill too many people..... Not even counting those he killed through trying to win by attrition, not even counting those he killed through ignorance and starvation, he still killed millions. And some other guy's like, "but in the Holocaust, they killed you just cause you were Jewish, you can't change that you're Jewish." I don't think he realized the Japanese killed, raped, and captured the Chinese for Unit 731 because... guess what, they were Chinese. And this was over a few weeks. And this kind of thing happened all over China and Korea. Nanjing is merely the most infamous, because it has the most records of it.

Now, I heard plenty of bad things in response. One guy just repeated over and over "You don't know what you're talking about." But the worst thing I heard out of their mouths was something along these lines.

"Killing these 6 million jews decimated over 2/3 of the entire jewish population. Even if 20 million Chinese and Koreans were killed, that's not even a tenth of the population."

and that was just like.... omg... Are you saying 6 million Jews are equal to 20 million orientals? That was just..... ugh, and the bus stopped where I had to get off, so...


how overrated do you guys think the Holocaust was? on a scale of 1-10? 1 being deserves the sympathy/books written about it, 10 being.... just stupid

I'd say its atleast an 8.6


note: I am not an anti-semite, not an anti-jew, don't accuse me of being one. I think the Holocaust was a terrible thing too, just very overrated.

Pierre25
04-02-2005, 01:03 AM
The Holocaust was a sad moment.

Neptune's Disciple
04-02-2005, 01:19 AM
It doesn't matter how many people were killed in China, and I'm not saying that the lives of Jews are more important than that of the Chinese or whoever, and I am an athiest, so there's no religious views in my way (if you get what I mean, ie. I'm not favouring either religion) the Halocaust was still an awful moment in history. 6 million people were killed, it doesn't matter which religion or race they were, thats disgraceful. Anyone saying that the halocaust is over-rated should be ashamed of themselves

Ace
04-02-2005, 01:43 AM
It doesn't matter how many people were killed in China, and I'm not saying that the lives of Jews are more important than that of the Chinese or whoever, and I am an athiest, so there's no religious views in my way (if you get what I mean, ie. I'm not favouring either religion) the Halocaust was still an awful moment in history. 6 million people were killed, it doesn't matter which religion or race they were, thats disgraceful. Anyone saying that the halocaust is over-rated should be ashamed of themselves

I partially agree and partially disagree with that statement.

Killing, no matter in what amounts or what methods used, is ALWAYS unjustified.

Any massacre is simply wrong. We should not compare statistics in ways such as this - that is quite inhumane in my opinion.

Calling the Holocaust overrated is sort of a bash. If you had instead called the unjustified deaths of the Chinese underrated, that would have been more correct in moral and respectful to those who died in the Holocaust AND in China.

Incongruity
04-02-2005, 02:20 AM
It doesn't matter how many people were killed in China, and I'm not saying that the lives of Jews are more important than that of the Chinese or whoever, and I am an athiest, so there's no religious views in my way (if you get what I mean, ie. I'm not favouring either religion) the Halocaust was still an awful moment in history. 6 million people were killed, it doesn't matter which religion or race they were, thats disgraceful. Anyone saying that the halocaust is over-rated should be ashamed of themselves
hmm so if you just feel people dying is bad....

you realize the soviet union lost about... oh just a rough figure, 30 million in world war II (That's JUST soldiers). And that's in addition to about... oh 20 million civilian deaths... And then Stalin killed his own people for various reasons of hate...

6 million jews eh? 9 million civilian chinese


so if you're just saying its sad how people died, its much sadder how people died, outside of the holocaust


so uh.... yea, holocaust was bad. Often seen as worst tragedy ever. But clearly there were worse tragedies, even in world war II alone. So I believe when the general public conceives something to be greater (whether it be a greater achievement or a greater tragedy) than it actually is, such as the holocaust being seen as the worst when it was not the worst, it is known as being overrated?





edit: It's not inhumane. I'm not saying the holocaust was wonderful. I'm not saying it was justified or a fabulous event. I'm just saying its overrated.

Bashaamo
04-02-2005, 05:05 AM
It doesn't matter how many people were killed in China, and I'm not saying that the lives of Jews are more important than that of the Chinese or whoever, and I am an athiest, so there's no religious views in my way (if you get what I mean, ie. I'm not favouring either religion) the Halocaust was still an awful moment in history. 6 million people were killed, it doesn't matter which religion or race they were, thats disgraceful. Anyone saying that the halocaust is over-rated should be ashamed of themselves

Being Jewish does not necessarily mean being of the Jewish faith. There are many agnostic and atheist Jews, who are still part of the Jewish community. If I were to convert to Judaism, I am a person who has adopted Judaism, I am not a Jew. Einstein for example was Jewish, but did not accept the Jewish god. Also, current Neo-Nazism believes that Noah, Abraham, and Moses were all Aryans, and today's Jews are descendents of the devil.

It's not inhumane.

What? The SS gassed, shot, crushed with tanks, beheaded, and worked to death the victims (not all just Jews by the way). How is that humane? How?

how overrated do you guys think the Holocaust was? on a scale of 1-10? 1 being deserves the sympathy/books written about it, 10 being.... just stupid

I'd say its atleast an 8.6

The Holocaust is less than 2 points away from being "just stupid!"

You are unbelievable! 6 million lives lost, not in war, not by an invading country, not by natural causes, but deliberate and systemized murder. These people didn't even have a chance.

Just try to comprehend that number, 6,000,000. Can you think of 100,000 people that you have heard of? Do you know 5,000 people? Do you know the first and last names of 500 people? Every one of these people had lives, hopes, and dreams. Think of all the babies and children that never got to grow up.

Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan and other conquers slaughtered innocents without mercy as well. But what makes the holocaust the worst, is that it happened, and was allowed to happen in a modern society. We are hardly 60 years removed from it.

I suggest you visit museums and memorials, even go visit some former concentration camp. Prince Harry did. Maybe you can learn some respect.

DM

Incongruity
04-02-2005, 01:09 PM
Lol? Are you purposely not reading all of the posts?


What? The SS gassed, shot, crushed with tanks, beheaded, and worked to death the victims (not all just Jews by the way). How is that humane? How?

The comment was to the comment about "I think it is inhumane that we are comparing statistics blah blah blah" Sorry for any misunderstanding

The Holocaust is less than 2 points away from being "just stupid!"

You are unbelievable! 6 million lives lost, not in war, not by an invading country, not by natural causes, but deliberate and systemized murder. These people didn't even have a chance.

Just try to comprehend that number, 6,000,000. Can you think of 100,000 people that you have heard of? Do you know 5,000 people? Do you know the first and last names of 500 people? Every one of these people had lives, hopes, and dreams. Think of all the babies and children that never got to grow up.



Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan and other conquers slaughtered innocents without mercy as well. But what makes the holocaust the worst, is that it happened, and was allowed to happen in a modern society. We are hardly 60 years removed from it.

I suggest you visit museums and memorials, even go visit some former concentration camp. Prince Harry did. Maybe you can learn some respect.

DM

You're still not addressing any of the points I made. The Holocaust WAS bad. I NEVER SAID IT WAS A WONDERFUL THING. The 1-10 scale was on how OVERRATED it is. You know what makes the holocaust not the worst? Why don't you actually read all the posts and find out. I suggest you visit the former bases of Unit 731. I suggest you learn about the gulag. Maybe YOU can learn some respect.


basically, what I'm trying to prove is how EVERYONE learns about the holocaust as the epitome of evil deeds, when it was really not. It was not the evilest of all deeds, yet it is seen as so; you can see this just as you look around the United States (don't know about other nations). Everyone is disgusted by the Holocaust, but why is nobody disgusted by all the other inhumane deeds, even the ones that took place in WWII.

There is a gap between how bad the Holocaust was and how bad it is seen to be. That makes it overrated.

Neo Emolga
04-02-2005, 04:35 PM
Yes, I would agree that the Holocaust was probably one of the most horrific events in history. Too many people think of 6 million lives as a statistic, but if we consider how important to us every one of our lives are to us, that’s 6 million hopes, dreams, and personalities lost in the dust forever. Honestly, I can understand why this event is still given thought and consideration throughout the years. If you look at the tragic acts September 11, the death toll there doesn’t even come anywhere near that of the Holocaust. Still, like the Holocaust, people did mourn for the lives lost that day.

Still, there are many disasters and horrific events that almost match or exceed the Holocaust disaster, but still aren’t given even nearly enough consideration. To say the least, World War II was a very destructive war that resulted in the deaths of many, many people. And while the victims of the Holocaust should be remembered, they shouldn’t be the only ones…

Hypocrisy is Fun
04-17-2005, 03:07 AM
The Holocaust was a sad moment.
What he said, there was no reason for that it to happen

Matthew
04-19-2005, 03:33 AM
Hmmm... the Holocaust? I think it is rather overrated.... but it was a horrible time in our history which could have been avoided... I'm an athiest as well, so I have little religious veiwpoints. I say maybe a 6...

Something related to holocaust, which is genocide (mass killing of a group), I don't understand how people over react to this topic when there is a present dilema going on in this world, also known as abortion... I'm stretching it a bit, but how often can you say you here about abortion being written in text books? Isn't it a bit similar? The killing of an innocent entity because it is unwanted or not what is accepted as normal? Heh... it pains me to know that countless members of the next generation are being brutally ripped out of existence and people say the holocaust (I'm not saying it isn't, but this is just as extreme and you don't hear as much about it)

I hope I am making sense :silly:

Ignorant statement by that one kid... I would have socked the kid for his blunt ignoracne.... how can you compare 20 million lives to 6 milllion? Heh.... stupid kid

*punch*

Finglonger
04-19-2005, 04:10 AM
well a life is a life no matter how you look at it. You can't say an event in history is "overrated" its not a sporting event or a movie, its something entirely different.

You might say that people focus too stringently on the holocaust and not enough on other similiar events such as nanking, the phillipines, rwanda, my lai massacre..the list goes on but you get the picture. The holocaust was given more publicity, because the atrocities were witnessed first hand by a large group of westerners, they saw the bodies, they saw the camps. Nanking wasn't quite the same, there werent any western armies coming into china, they didnt see it. oh sure some saw it, but not in the numbers that personally saw the Nazi internment camps.

I;d say you were wrong for saying that the holocaust wasnt as legitimate an event in history as other similar ones. I'd almost border on the line of ignorance. but your friends were wrong in saying that chinese lives arent equal to jewish lives, it just doesn't work that way.

Now I am willing to concede that other events have not gotten enough consideration, but I am not willing to downplay the amount of human life lost in any event. By saying that the holocaust is overrated you trivialize 6 million lives, do you realize that? every human life lost needlessly is a tragedy, and when we look back into history it is important that we prevent and actvely oppose genocide, that we take a stance and say enough is enough. I think a good start is that we recognize this one tragedy, but we must continue to recognize the evils that have existed and still exist today, if that means "overrating" ,as you so eloquently stated, one event then so be it. Its a start. But I do agree that we as a race need to expand our range of vision and learn to recognize that there were other equally bad if not worse events that have taken place throughout history, I only hope that time comes soon.

Incongruity
04-29-2005, 07:29 PM
ah, sorry to go past the omnipotent 1 week rule, but I've decided to do some more research on this matter.


6 million jews clearly didn't die during the Holocaust. This entire thing comes from a book that a doctor atAuschwitz wrote.... But a few years later it was proved he wasn't a doctor, nor was he at Auschwitz....

so how many people did die during the Holocaust? I've seen anywhere from 130,000 to 9,000,000.

And then there are figures for how many of those killed during the holocaust (not the 6 million figure) were non-jews. Of the total number of people killed during the holocaust, I've seen the non-jew percentage go upto 50%.

What do you all think?


edited, miswrote some stuff

JohtoTrainer
05-13-2005, 01:23 AM
I think sk is really trying to say that other war crimes happened in WWII not just the Holocaust. The Holocaust is widely known, while other War Crimes are over looked, that is what I think he is trying to say. He's not trying to say that he believes in what Hitler did.

Kenny_C.002
05-13-2005, 02:26 AM
Oh this I personally think no historic event would ever be "overrated", rather most historic events are "underrated" or just plain "ignored". You brought up a decent point with the Chinese, but strangely enough humans don't work on the subject of things that are "out of reach". Simply said, it doesn't matter in the end as human lives were still taken wrongfully. That was the point of teaching such history, to teach people of inhumane acts taht should never be repeated, let it be the holocaust or any other genocide.

Fing: Yup, that's why the holocaust isn't as publicized in China in comparison to the massacres, because there is much more accounts of it in China.

Ryu: Keep it down with the sarcasm.

Incongruity
05-13-2005, 11:23 PM
ugh, I can't believe you're bringing personal anger at me into a different discussion



Ryu Gaia, have you EVER heard of Nanjing? Not only Nanjing, but all over China. Not only China, but French Indochina, British Malaya, Dutch East Indies.

These civilians were NOT killed of war. They were NOT caught in crossfire. They were NOT soldiers.

Their cities were captured.

They had nowhere to go.

The Japanese couldn't keep them as POWs.

So this is what they did: Raped them Used them for experiments (Unit 731: see flea bombs, temperature at which humans burn, human furnaces for mass cremation) Or, simply killed all of them

Many Japanese (especially those in Unit 731) were acquitted in exchange for bio-chemical experimentation data.

Now, the Japanese have STILL not admitted these crimes.

Look at the Germans. They have made EVERY step to apologize. They are openly against eugenics, because they so regret everything that happened in WWII.


I will act as the Germans do. Unlike the Japanese, I will apologize. Perhaps I should have said other events were underrated. That was a mistake of mine. But, these other events are so downright ignored. Let's not forget that.



(note: Japan's war crimes in WWII are simply one example of atrocities as horrible as or, in this case, worse than the Holocaust. I used it as it was contemporary to the Holocaust)

!CeMAn
05-14-2005, 07:13 PM
kenny makes a great point there:

Oh this I personally think no historic event would ever be "overrated", rather most historic events are "underrated" or just plain "ignored".

ssk, i don't think you're anti- semetic at all. you're just discussing. don't listen to any other comments like ryu's.

Loyal Arcanine
05-14-2005, 07:39 PM
Erm, ok. This may sound a bit foolish, but I think this is why other war crimes have been underrated.

Put simply, it comes down to what level of education you take in youth. I'm doing the highest possible grades in Holland, and I know of the crimes you've talked. Being Dutch, I even had to made an assignment about what happened in Dutch East Indies, and I also did one about Lenin and Stalin. But one thing everybody has heard off, is the holocaust. Perhaps because it was media-hyped in two of the world's leading continents, Europa and the US. But you only hear of the war crimes of Stalin, Japan, or that general in Spain just before WWII (forgot his name) if you have taken pretty high levels at school. And since those high levels are above average, and thus above what the majority takes, that's why the majority underrates certain war crimes.

And a little side-note to SK: I think 30 million Russian soldiers killed in the WWII is a bit too big a figure.

Incongruity
05-14-2005, 09:29 PM
Ssk, you are a moron to believe that this 'anger' if mine is because of what goes on in another topic.
No, the anger might have something to do with me being Jewish, and you're downplaying the deaths of about 6 million Jews who were killed for no other reason than that they were Jews and that they were scapegoats of an idiot tyrant. The Chinese and the Japanese hated each other and went to war with each other. The civilians were killed because their countries were at war, and they wanted to punish one another.
Jews did not go to war. They were taken from their homes and murdered.
The Holocaust is considered the epitemy of evil because it demonstrates who the idiocy and bigotry of one person, and how that led to him wanting to destroy an entire religion because they could be a scapegoat.

By comparing your actions to the Germans 'appologising,' you yet again downplay the holocaust as though you were saying 'hm, making this topic is like the holocaust so my apology is like how the Germans did it.'
If you apologise, it isn't being 'like the germans,' it is like 'being human,' which is clearly something you never quite knew how to do.

ssk.. you utterly disgust me. I can't believe you... I knew you were mean, but this is inhumane!Anger from other topics.



What I have to refute your other comments is already in my previous posts. If you want more proof of crimes against humanity, and Unit 731 isn't bad enough, try Unit 100, Unity 543, Unit 773, Unit 1644, etc. etc. etc.


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I know very well of the atrocities that occurred in the Holocaust. I'm sure you do too. But I know that the Holocaust was not the only evil, and its status as the worst is infinitely debatable. Are you blind to everything else?


I don't want people to forget the Holocaust. It sucked. But don't let that one event cloud your vision.



Loyal Arcanine: My bad, 27 million casualties (military)

Incongruity
05-14-2005, 10:43 PM
and yet, that must not be it, as I had said that it was perhaps in a better light to make it such that all the other atrocities of the world are underrated; only to be followed by two of your posts.


but, my goals seem to go ignored. You still seem to be blind of all other atrocities. At least some in this thread have acknowledge grievous events that have happened other than the holocaust

JohtoTrainer
05-15-2005, 12:33 AM
I don't like how sk said that the "Holocaust was Overrated." He just chose the wrong words, he has apologized for it.

But, you, Ryu need to see that sk is trying to say that there were OTHER war crimes. Not just the holocaust. Japan tortured alot of people. They tortured Americans, you might say "Well, they were soldiers not civilians." They were soldiers that had SURRENDERED which is the same as being a civilian pretty much. The Holocaust was a horrible thing I'm not saying it's Overrated and I don't believe sk thinks that either. But, there were TONS of events that were UNDERrated.

Kenny_C.002
05-15-2005, 02:21 AM
Ryu man, chill out. The flaming's getting out of hand there. And beside that point, sk appologized for what he has done. I think you owe him an appology here. Still, I do have no choice but to give you a second warning, as you did break one of the rules in OD.

Sk, we can calm this down a bit with you too. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Arcanine:
Generally speaking the only "histories" that most Americans take is American history, which would be completely void of anything major in other continents. Likewise, this is the same with China with "Chinese history". I think that in itself plays a large role in why the holocaust is the big "evil historic event" here and the massacre in China/Korea.

Sk:
Yeah this is true that the Japanese didn't openly appologized yet, and this does tick many Chinese people off (it used to for me too, but it died out when I thought about this event more). However, many Jewish people are still "angry" at Germans even though they have "appologized" (it would have been the previous generation). I think personally speaking these two voids just never will disappear, but how the rest of the world views this I guess is more important, and quite frankly from my 3rd person POV, I think that this generation should not bare the attacks that should be aimed at the previous generation, but only to bare the burden of the crimes from the past to learn from it.

Debate:
I'm not sure whether we can really say it's [the holocaust] the epitome of evil, since evil in this case is so blurred within politics that maybe in reality we were the evils that spawned this evil in the first place. What is the epitome of evil? IMO it would have been discrimination and racism (D&R). It is D&R that caused Germany to drop to the bottom with debt. It is D&R that caused the entire world to shun Germany, making Germany desperate. It is D&R that allowed Hitler to rise into power and put such a horrific event into action. It is D&R that made the casualties much higher of what it would have been, if the countires just accepted the Jewish refugees. It is D&R that caused the Japanese to slaughter/rape/annihilate the Chinese, and it is also D&R that is causing this debate to spiral out of control. What is the epitome of evil? Certainly not Hitler (he is evil, but not the epitome of evil), but D&R.

Loyal Arcanine
05-15-2005, 10:22 PM
My bad, 27 million casualties (military)

Eep, not your bad I would think. About the same figure, and still huge. Here's one thing that was definitely underrated by yours truly.