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seamyo
12-20-2007, 01:50 PM
why does everyone suggest T bolt on Gengar..seriously why wud he need it?????

shedinjask
12-20-2007, 01:57 PM
For coverage.

Itachi_2007
12-21-2007, 11:20 PM
To own n00bs. Kidding. For coverage, like shedinjask said.

Spongebob Number One Fan
12-22-2007, 01:41 AM
To own n00bs. Kidding. For coverage, like shedinjask said.

That isn't very specific. Thunderbolt comes in handy in many cases, but mostly for dealing with bulky waters who otherwise would have their way with gengar.

That's the only time I find myself using Thunderbolt, is when I see a bulky water switch in coming.

TheEvilDookie
12-22-2007, 01:47 AM
Because only 4 types are resistant toward it

Fire Away
12-22-2007, 02:25 AM
That isn't very specific. Thunderbolt comes in handy in many cases, but mostly for dealing with bulky waters who otherwise would have their way with gengar.

That's the only time I find myself using Thunderbolt, is when I see a bulky water switch in coming.

If I wanted to hit a bulky water I'd definitely pick Energy Ball, since it'll hit all of them and Swampert, which is important.

To expand on what everyone else has said, T-Bolt will let you nail Gyarados, Skarmory (who will probably switch anyways, but it's nice to be able to hit him), Togetic, Staraptor, etc. I think you asked 'why would he need it' because it doesn't cover his weaknesses, but Shadow Ball already hits everything he's weak to anyways. :x

Breloomfan
12-27-2007, 01:24 AM
and aginst (sorry bad spelling) a normal/flying type gengars STAB moves won't hit so t-bolt gives them a shock:happy:hope it helps!

Itachi_2007
12-27-2007, 11:09 AM
and aginst (sorry bad spelling) a normal/flying type gengars STAB moves won't hit so t-bolt gives them a shock:happy:hope it helps!

Sorry, but normal types don't really take Thunderbolt hard. Especially Snorlax/Blissey/Milktank. All three of those absorb Thunderbolt like jelly.

pokemidget
12-27-2007, 01:39 PM
hi did say normal/flying.... but yeah, i use it sometimes because I have an extra slot, and what the hell, it's useful

Outrage
12-27-2007, 02:49 PM
If it's coverage Thunderbolt is after I would've thought it would be better to teach Gengar a Fighting type move like Brick Break (or Focus Blast if you want a special attack) because it's double the strength against any type that resists Shadow Ball (namely Normal, Steel and Dark types). Are bulky water types really that much of a problem for Gengar?

It wouldn't be a matter of hitting the types Gengar is weak to (^Shadow Ball was mentioned to do that), but hitting the types Gengar's attacks are weak to. That's what coverage is, isn't it?

DragoniteMistress
12-27-2007, 02:56 PM
If it's coverage Thunderbolt is after I would've thought it would be better to teach Gengar a Fighting type move like Brick Break (or Focus Blast if you want a special attack) because it's double the strength against any type that resists Shadow Ball (namely Normal, Steel and Dark types). Are bulky water types really that much of a problem for Gengar?

It wouldn't be a matter of hitting the types Gengar is weak to (^Shadow Ball was mentioned to do that), but hitting the types Gengar's attacks are weak to.

Brick Break on Gengar is like Ice Beam on Linoone or something :l Just because it can learn it doesn't mean it should learn it. Focus Blast has too low of an accuracy to be worthy, imo, but everyone has different opinions. Bulky waters are a problem for nearly any sweeper, given the right circumstances. Capability of defeating them easily should be a must for sweepers, imo, once again.

Outrage
12-27-2007, 03:01 PM
Brick Break on Gengar is like Ice Beam on Linoone or something :l Just because it can learn it doesn't mean it should learn it.

Ice Beam on Linoone wouldn't be as beneficial though as it wouldn't really help against the types Linoone's weak to nor the types Linoone's STAB attacks are weak to. The question was coverage. I would've thought a Gengar would achieve this with a STAB Ghost move like Shadow Ball and a fighting type. The only drawback I suppose is Gengar's weaker Attack stat and Focus Blast's low accuracy like you said.

DragoniteMistress
12-27-2007, 03:09 PM
Ice Beam on Linoone wouldn't be as beneficial though as it wouldn't really help against the types Linoone's weak to nor the types Linoone's STAB attacks are weak to. The question was coverage. I would've thought a Gengar would achieve this with a STAB Ghost move like Shadow Ball and a fighting type. The only drawback I suppose is Gengar's weaker Attack stat and Focus Blast's low accuracy like you said.

Nor would Brick Break be beneficial on Gengar. With sweepers, my organization when planning the movesets would be to focus on weaknesses first, or any other type that would prove to be a threat - such as bulky waters - I don't see too much of a reason for Focus Blast on Gengar, despite the fact I've seen it many times. I may be incorrect, considering that I've never used Gengar for competitive battles.

TheEvilDookie
12-27-2007, 03:11 PM
Sorry, but normal types don't really take Thunderbolt hard. Especially Snorlax/Blissey/Milktank. All three of those absorb Thunderbolt like jelly.
That's because the ones you listed all have high special defense. Energy ball would have the same effect, actually less damage.

Outrage
12-27-2007, 03:22 PM
I don't see too much of a reason for Focus Blast on Gengar, despite the fact I've seen it many times.

I threw it out there because it was a special fighting type attack, and Gengar is a special sweeper, so obviously his EVs will all be in his special attack. I suppose people throw it on their Gengar to take care of Steelix, which would be a real Shadow Ball/Thunderbolt counter. I don't think I can think of a pokemon that can wall a Gengar with Shadow Ball and Focus Blast. Maybe that's a factor as to why the game designers made Focus Blast inaccurate. Who knows?

DragoniteMistress
12-27-2007, 03:26 PM
I threw it out there because it was a special fighting type attack, and Gengar is a special sweeper, so obviously his EVs will all be in his special attack. I suppose people throw it on their Gengar to take care of Steelix, which would be a real Shadow Ball/Thunderbolt counter. I don't think I can think of a pokemon that can wall a Gengar with Shadow Ball and Focus Blast. Maybe that's a factor as to why the game designers made Focus Blast inaccurate. Who knows?

Likely, but I'd rather just switch when faced with Steelix. I hope you aren't taking this rudely, yet I tend to get temperamental when faced with competitive battling discussions.

Back on topic: Thunderbolt takes care of a lot of the OU 'Mons, and counters Skarm so much better than Energy Ball WHILE taking care of the bulky Water-types, end of story.

Outrage
12-27-2007, 03:36 PM
I hope you aren't taking this rudely, yet I tend to get temperamental when faced with competitive battling discussions.

Not at all. I don't get offended very easily over something like this. I'm probably wrong anyway.

Back on topic: Thunderbolt takes care of a lot of the OU 'Mons, and counters Skarm so much better than Energy Ball WHILE taking care of the bulky Water-types, end of story.

I suppose you're not looking to counter every possible pokemon, but more effectively counter the overused ones, like the often mentioned bulky water types. However, Blissey is one of the most overused pokemon ever, so wouldn't knowing Brick Break be a whole lot better for Gengar when likely coming up against this pokemon being the special wall that it is (assuming you don't just opt to switch)?

DragoniteMistress
12-27-2007, 03:56 PM
I suppose you're not looking to counter every possible pokemon, but more effectively counter the overused ones, like the often mentioned bulky water types. However, Blissey is one of the most overused pokemon ever, so wouldn't knowing Brick Break be a whole lot better for Gengar when likely coming up against this pokemon being the special wall that it is (assuming you don't just opt to switch)?

That's exactly why you do just switch when Gengar is up against Blissey, you can't really counter her because Gengar is a special sweeper. Special sweeper vs. Special wall isn't smart.

Itachi_2007
12-27-2007, 04:21 PM
If it's coverage Thunderbolt is after I would've thought it would be better to teach Gengar a Fighting type move like Brick Break (or Focus Blast if you want a special attack) because it's double the strength against any type that resists Shadow Ball (namely Normal, Steel and Dark types). Are bulky water types really that much of a problem for Gengar?

It wouldn't be a matter of hitting the types Gengar is weak to (^Shadow Ball was mentioned to do that), but hitting the types Gengar's attacks are weak to. That's what coverage is, isn't it?

Sorry, but I don't think Brick Break on Gengar with his base 65 Attack is going to do much. In-fact, let's do Steelix:

Defender HP: 260
Move Damage: 39 - 46
Damage: 15.00f % - 17.69% Don't think I did it right, though. But Its going to be near that. Needless to say, It Isn't a massive amount of damage. They'll likely be stalling each other because they nothing that can really do much against themselves. :/ However, with Normal types you might be fortunate, but that's about it. You won't do damage even against Umbreon I'm guessing. Let's see..

Defender HP: 300
Move Damage: 56 - 66
Damage: 18.67% - 22.00% Yeah, Umbreon laughs at you too. :/

Spongebob Number One Fan
12-27-2007, 04:56 PM
Sorry, but I don't think Brick Break on Gengar with his base 65 Attack is going to do much. In-fact, let's do Steelix:

Defender HP: 260
Move Damage: 39 - 46
Damage: 15.00f % - 17.69% Don't think I did it right, though. But Its going to be near that. Needless to say, It Isn't a massive amount of damage. They'll likely be stalling each other because they nothing that can really do much against themselves. :/ However, with Normal types you might be fortunate, but that's about it. You won't do damage even against Umbreon I'm guessing. Let's see..

Defender HP: 300
Move Damage: 56 - 66
Damage: 18.67% - 22.00% Yeah, Umbreon laughs at you too. :/

Yeah, let's do it on the pokemon with the highest base defense in the game barring shuckle. You're right, but that is an unfair comparison really.

Just to point out focus punch is fairly common on Gengar. Well, not anymore, but it works.

Fire Away
12-27-2007, 05:11 PM
Shadow Ball and Focus Blast hit everything in the game for neutral or better, so there's that factor to think of.

And he's right, back in the day Gengar was able to counter Blissey very effectively with Focus Punch.

@DM - if you honestly think Focus Blast isn't 'worthy' on Gengar, consider the fact that there are only three special fighting attacks in the game (including HP Fighting) and Aura Sphere is exclusive to ubers and Lucario/Togekiss. Also, Focus Blast can 3HKO Blissey (!!) with Choice Specs attached, while letting him nail Weavile and Tyranitar switch-ins better than he's ever been able to. When I see a Gengar I always think twice about my Weavile switch for that reason alone.

DragoniteMistress
12-27-2007, 05:14 PM
Shadow Ball and Focus Blast hit everything in the game for neutral or better, so there's that factor to think of.

And he's right, back in the day Gengar was able to counter Blissey very effectively with Focus Punch.

@DM - if you honestly think Focus Blast isn't 'worthy' on Gengar, consider the fact that there are only three special fighting attacks in the game (including HP Fighting) and Aura Sphere is exclusive to ubers and Lucario/Togekiss. Also, Focus Blast can 3HKO Blissey (!!) with Choice Specs attached, while letting him nail Weavile and Tyranitar switch-ins better than he's ever been able to anymore. When I see a Gengar I always think twice about my Weavile switch for that reason alone.

I have a friend who nearly got owned the hell out of because his Alakazam's Focus Blast missed three times in a row. Those could have been the three chances of KOing Blissey. All missed. I never rely on moves with low accuracy, unless it's Hail/Blizzard, Rain/Thunder, or any other move like so. It's too unreliable to function as it normally should. Why would you want to waste a slot when you could just switch, anyway?

Spongebob Number One Fan
12-27-2007, 05:16 PM
I have a friend who nearly got owned the hell out of because his Alakazam's Focus Blast missed three times in a row. Those could have been the three chances of KOing Blissey. All missed. I never rely on moves with low accuracy, unless it's Hail/Blizzard, Rain/Thunder, or any other move like so. It's too unreliable to function as it normally should. Why would you want to waste a slot when you could just switch, anyway?

Not when you need to KO things, you have to take risks. I've switched my heatran into several fire attacks. Fire Blast, with that boost, 2HKOs blissey. I think fire blast is worth the risk in that respect.

And if gengar doesn't have focus blast, Tyranitar will come in and kill you, and pursuit will stop you from switching out, as will weavile and crap that you could otherwise kill.

EDIT: If you really want accuracy there is HP Fighting.

Fire Away
12-27-2007, 05:17 PM
I have a friend who nearly got owned the hell out of because his Alakazam's Focus Blast missed three times in a row. Those could have been the three chances of KOing Blissey. All missed. I never rely on moves with low accuracy, unless it's Hail/Blizzard, Rain/Thunder, or any other move like so. It's too unreliable to function as it normally should. Why would you want to waste a slot when you could just switch, anyway?

The accuracy vs. power argument relaly boils down to preference, but in Alakazam's/Gengar's case it provides very valuable coverage. I'd hardly call Focus Blast a 'waste' when it allows you to OHKO some of Gengar's most common switch-ins.

DragoniteMistress
12-27-2007, 05:19 PM
The accuracy vs. power argument relaly boils down to preference, but in Alakazam's/Gengar's case it provides very valuable coverage. I'd hardly call Focus Blast a 'waste' when it allows you to OHKO some of Gengar's most common switch-ins.

Common, opinionated argument that really shows the grit of the metagame. In the long run, no matter how much we bicker it all really depends on what the FPer is going up against, and really wants for their team.

We're straying from the topic. Isn't this about Thunderbolt? x(

Fire Away
12-27-2007, 05:22 PM
Common, opinionated argument that really shows the grit of the metagame. In the long run, no matter how much we bicker it all really depends on what the FPer is going up against, and really wants for their team.

We're straying from the topic. Isn't this about Thunderbolt? x(

We're still talking about Gengar's movepool, so I wouldn't call it total spam. I will say (in closing :oops:) that in the offensive kind of environment DP is, generally an accuracy drop versus that kind of power and type coverage is worth it. However as you said, it boils down to what the player wants for their team.

...>_>

So yeah. Thunderbolt is good on Gengar. :D

shedinjask
12-27-2007, 05:36 PM
Also, Focus Blast can 3HKO Blissey (!!) with Choice Specs attached,

I thought it was a 2HKO with Modest.

Fire Away
12-27-2007, 05:36 PM
I thought it was a 2HKO with Modest.

Actually, you're right. It's a 3HKO with Life Orb.

Itachi_2007
12-27-2007, 06:19 PM
Yeah, let's do it on the pokemon with the highest base defense in the game barring shuckle. You're right, but that is an unfair comparison really.

Just to point out focus punch is fairly common on Gengar. Well, not anymore, but it works.


Most people know that already, assuming they played Netbattle I'm one of them, no need to inform me about it, really.

Dark_Azelf
12-27-2007, 10:26 PM
What do you mean "used" to have Focus Punch ??? Have you never come across this set ?

Gengar@Life Orb
204 Atk / 54 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty nature
- Focus Punch
- Explosion
- Thunderbolt
- Shadow Ball



Blissey = Lawl. Explosion OHKOs it, Focus punch 2HKOs it, and OHKos Tyranitar and weavile, all common switch ins to it, Focus Punch takes preciction, but its really not that hard to do.There aren't many things that can safely switch into this moveset


Back on topic : - Thunderbolt would be for superior type coverage as it hits most types and to prevent Gyarados, Milotic <insert Bulky water here>. rape, and other stuff that doesnt really take much from standard Focus Blast, Shadow Ball, and Hidden power Ice etc.

BTW Energy Ball is only an option if your exceedingly Swampert weak and doesnt do much for gengar apart from that and basically hits the same types as all the other 3 moves do so on most cases its redundant.

Outrage
12-28-2007, 12:02 AM
SOrry for the late reply...

Sorry, but I don't think Brick Break on Gengar with his base 65 Attack is going to do much. In-fact, let's do Steelix...

I never said you should grab Brick Break to counter Steelix, I said Steelix is probably why people put Focus Blast on their Gengars. You'd most likely have a better chance finishing off Steelix by using Shadow Ball then using Brick Break. I said Brick Break is one of Gengar's only ways to counter Blissey, assuming you'd risk your special sweeper against a special wall like her by not switching. Who knows, you might be down to your last pokemon and Blissey is the only thing stopping you from sweeping the rest of the enemy. Once again, Brick Break might be too weak thanks to Gengar's weak physical attack so you might have to risk Focus Blast after all.

I have a friend who nearly got owned the hell out of because his Alakazam's Focus Blast missed three times in a row.

That is why I hate inaccurate moves, and Focus Blast is bad. I would've thought with that power and that inaccuracy you'd at least get 10PP (like Thunder which is more powerful with the same accuracy), but I suppose it being a special type fighting attack is it's real appeal. I mean look at Drain Punch, it's an exact version of Giga Drain (bar being physical and fighting type), but it never got 5 extra PP. Why?

Actually don't answer that, this thread is off topic as it is.

shedinjask
12-28-2007, 01:37 AM
like Thunder which is more powerful with the same accuracy

Same power actually.

Outrage
12-28-2007, 03:00 AM
Same power actually.

Oh right, i thought it only had a strength of 100. I wouldn't know as I've never really had the chance to use it. I forgot it was a variation of Blizzard (which also has 5PP... why does Thunder get 10?... once again off topic). Anyway the question has been answered so this thread is done for.