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Sigma_
05-28-2008, 06:26 PM
Most of you are probably familiar with the Sleep Clause rule. This rule only allows your opponent to put one of your Pokemon to sleep at a time. It's a pretty common rule for the occasional 3 VS. 3. However, having one Pokemon put to sleep can be a great disadvantage in battles as small as 3 VS. 3, especially when you have to switch away from your sleeping Pokemon to your measly selection of two Pokemon as your opponent gets a free turn to set up.

That is why I would like to introduce the No Sleep Moves rule for battles like this. I'm not saying every 3 VS. 3 has to have No Sleep Moves, but I want more people to consider it. It would make reffing more interesting too while help gyms that lack a fast sleeper. Maybe it can even become a staple in future tournaments.

However, battles as great as 5 VS. 5 and above are great for Sleep Clause, where you have more of a selection to counter against Pokemon.

Any thoughts?

GreyScale
05-28-2008, 06:30 PM
Most of you are probably familiar with the Sleep Clause rule. This rule only allows your opponent to put one of your Pokemon to sleep at a time. It's a pretty common rule for the occasional 3 VS. 3. However, having one Pokemon put to sleep can be a great disadvantage in battles as small as 3 VS. 3, especially when you have to switch away from your sleeping Pokemon to your measly selection of two Pokemon as your opponent gets a free turn to set up.

That is why I would like to introduce the No Sleep Moves rule for battles like this. I'm not saying every 3 VS. 3 has to have No Sleep Moves, but I want more people to consider it. Maybe it can even become a staple in future tournaments.

Any thoughts?

It would make a difference, but it should be optional to use it or not.

Sigma_
05-28-2008, 06:32 PM
It would make a difference, but it should be optional to use it or not.

It's already optional, I just want more people to be aware of it.

Haze
05-28-2008, 07:12 PM
I dont like it too much, I mean, it severly cuts the use of certain mons in any battles lower than 5 vs 5.

TheEvilDookie
05-28-2008, 07:14 PM
I think it's a great rule for 1v1s or 2v2s. 3v3 may be pushing it too much though.

Bryce
05-28-2008, 07:18 PM
I think it's a great rule for 1v1s or 2v2s. 3v3 may be pushing it too much though.

How would that be pushing it?

Battles should be more about skill & being able to defeat your opponent while they are able to attack... Rather than just using a bunch of stat-raising moves while your opponent just sits there lifelessly...

Also, he said it was optional, so it is just another choice some may have...

I like it, Pidge. =]

Sigma_
05-28-2008, 07:21 PM
I dont like it too much, I mean, it severly cuts the use of certain mons in any battles lower than 5 vs 5.

Only Gengar and Crobat that I can think of immediately.

SuperSmashBrawl
05-28-2008, 07:25 PM
Sleep isn't that bad. 1v1's and 2v2's are good for No Sleep move rules. But as Crazy mentioned, a lot of mons would take a hit. 3v3's, I could go either way. Your agruement is that in a 3v3, you don't have as many back-up options, but you have two awake mons you can use. 1 or 2 mon battles should obviously have this rule, unless you're doing a basic battle or something like that. 3v3's and up, its entirely based on opinion, I'll probably have No Sleep Moves for 3v3's, but it'd be based on how I'm feeling at the time.

Sigma_
05-28-2008, 07:27 PM
Sleep isn't that bad. 1v1's and 2v2's are good for No Sleep move rules. But as Crazy mentioned, a lot of mons would take a hit. 3v3's, I could go either way. Your agruement is that in a 3v3, you don't have as many back-up options, but you have two awake mons you can use. 1 or 2 mon battles should obviously have this rule, unless you're doing a basic battle or something like that. 3v3's and up, its entirely based on opinion, I'll probably have No Sleep Moves for 3v3's, but it'd be based on how I'm feeling at the time.
What Pokemon? Again, I can only think of Gengar and Crobat who take advantage of their speed and ability to put Pokemon to sleep. Those Pokemon can still be useful without sleeping anyways.

TheEvilDookie
05-28-2008, 07:28 PM
How would that be pushing it?

Battles should be more about skill & being able to defeat your opponent while they are able to attack... Rather than just using a bunch of stat-raising moves while your opponent just sits there lifelessly...

Also, he said it was optional, so it is just another choice some may have...

I like it, Pidge. =]

Must you combat half of my opinion posts that I make?... :confused: *Is not asking for a "Lolyes" comment back*

I didn't say 3v3 should be left out completely; just on some of them. :ermm:

SuperSmashBrawl
05-28-2008, 07:30 PM
What Pokemon? Again, I can only think of Gengar and Crobat who take advantage of their speed and ability to put Pokemon to sleep. Those Pokemon can still be useful without sleeping anyways.
Okay, besides Gengar and Crobat you have Lapras. I've seen a lot of people use Lappy with sing. There's also Mismagius, Jynx, any basics that have sleep moves(as I mentioned earlier), Jolteon, and a few other Pokemon that use Yawn on a regular basis I have forgotten. I've seen all of the above mons use a Sleep move.

Nitrous Oxide
05-28-2008, 07:34 PM
Well, aren't you already able to use special rules if both people agree anyways? :neutral:

Loyal Arcanine
05-28-2008, 07:35 PM
Doesn't make sense to me. It's part of the game, deal with it. :rolleyes: OHKO moves are allowed too, and you, for one, aren't shy of using those.

Sigma_
05-28-2008, 07:36 PM
Okay, besides Gengar and Crobat you have Lapras. I've seen a lot of people use Lappy with sing. There's also Mismagius, Jynx, any basics that have sleep moves(as I mentioned earlier), Jolteon, and a few other Pokemon that use Yawn on a regular basis I have forgotten. I've seen all of the above mons use a Sleep move.

I've never seen anyone use a Lapras or Jynx or Jolteon with Yawn recently. While I've only seen Ataro use Mismagius. Those are only 5-7 Pokemon anyways out of 493, I think.

SuperSmashBrawl
05-28-2008, 07:40 PM
I've never seen anyone use a Lapras or Jynx or Jolteon with Yawn recently. While I've only seen Ataro use Mismagius. Those are only 5-7 Pokemon anyways out of 493, I think.
I've seen the Pokemon I mentioned use sleep moves since I became active again. Read Mike's post, that's all I have left to say. People don't really mind Sleep Moves, just as long as they don't have their entire team asleep.

Sigma_
05-28-2008, 07:41 PM
Doesn't make sense to me. It's part of the game, deal with it. :rolleyes: OHKO moves are allowed too, and you, for one, aren't shy of using those.

I am dealing with it. If sleep moves are allowed, I'll happily make use of my Gengar. :biggrin: I'm not complaining about it at all. I just find it more fun without sleep moves and I want to see if other people think so. If sleep is part of the game, let's get rid of sleep clause too, just like in-game.

Fenix
05-28-2008, 07:41 PM
Nobody likes getting put to sleep in a battle of any size, but that's part of the game. It's annoying for a reason; it is supposed to be. Many sleep moves suffer from low or questionable accuracy to provide a check on them, and there is also always the chance that you will only be put to sleep for one or two turns. Snore and Sleep Talk help here too.

Also, Yawn can be a very integral part in some teams, and not just for the effect of putting an opponent to sleep. Many Pokemon could set up without fear or consequence, since it is easy to Taunt a Roaring or Whirlwinding Pokemon. Of course there is always Haze, but the turn they either switch or stay in can be a critical turning point in a battle. Eliminating this strategy would be a huge mistake.

Another option is just bringing in a counter Pokemon. If you're worried about sleep, bring in a fast Pokemon with Substitute or Taunt, or an ability that will protect you. No need for a special rule other than Sleep Clause.

Additionally, I realize that you said "optional," but did anyone stop to think that one person could ask for it, the other disagree, and then there is a 50% chance that someone is going to get very screwed over in their battle? Again, I know this can happen with other rules, but this one just seems especially lopsided.

EmBreon
05-28-2008, 07:49 PM
No Sleep Moves = epic failure.

There are thousands of ways to counter them, and if that's the sole reason why you lost the battle, then you probably would have lost anyway.

Nitrous Oxide
05-28-2008, 08:17 PM
Well, aren't you already able to use special rules if both people agree anyways? :neutral:

I'll just quote myself, since you know... this rule already exists if you want it to. :rolleyes:

Sigma_
05-28-2008, 09:10 PM
Nobody likes getting put to sleep in a battle of any size, but that's part of the game. It's annoying for a reason; it is supposed to be. Many sleep moves suffer from low or questionable accuracy to provide a check on them, and there is also always the chance that you will only be put to sleep for one or two turns. Snore and Sleep Talk help here too.

Also, Yawn can be a very integral part in some teams, and not just for the effect of putting an opponent to sleep. Many Pokemon could set up without fear or consequence, since it is easy to Taunt a Roaring or Whirlwinding Pokemon. Of course there is always Haze, but the turn they either switch or stay in can be a critical turning point in a battle. Eliminating this strategy would be a huge mistake.

Another option is just bringing in a counter Pokemon. If you're worried about sleep, bring in a fast Pokemon with Substitute or Taunt, or an ability that will protect you. No need for a special rule other than Sleep Clause.

Additionally, I realize that you said "optional," but did anyone stop to think that one person could ask for it, the other disagree, and then there is a 50% chance that someone is going to get very screwed over in their battle? Again, I know this can happen with other rules, but this one just seems especially lopsided.

I would almost never leave a Pokemon just put to sleep by an opponent in. The 2/7 chance of the Pokemon sleeping one or two turns isn't very reliable and then you will probably be put to sleep again anyways. You could even end up waking up and using Sleep Talk (not the most reliable move either), causing it to fail. If your sleeping Pokemon is put to sleep and knocked out, then the next Pokemon you send could be put to sleep.

Getting a free turn to set up or attack freely is one of the lesser advantages of putting a Pokemon to sleep. The greater advantage is that you have essentially immobilized one Pokemon the opponent's three man team.

A counter, according to Smogon, is something that can switch in on a Pokemon with little fear of being taken out. Meaning Hypno and other Insomniacs are basically the only counters. Few Pokemon can both Taunt and out speed common sleepers and it would be hard to predict when they switch in. While almost every Pokemon learns Substitute, it can easily be taken out. Also, it is likely your counter isn't out in battle. It would be a shame if you didn't have your counter Pokemon out, you switch to it, and then it is put to sleep.

No Sleep Moves = epic failure.

There are thousands of ways to counter them, and if that's the sole reason why you lost the battle, then you probably would have lost anyway.

But in 3 VS. 3 those exaggerated ways are limited to be used by three Pokemon only. And not necessarily, a sleep can eliminate your only counter to something that will destroy your team without it, although you shouldn't of let it be put to sleep anyways.

Haze
05-28-2008, 09:19 PM
Yanmega also outspeeds Crobat and Aerodactyl on the second turn, and gets Hypnosis. I'm not sure if it gets Taunt though.

SiberianTiger
05-28-2008, 09:31 PM
I'll just quote myself, since you know... this rule already exists if you want it to. :rolleyes:

Quoted for truth. Not to mention I think you all are taking this out of context, as if I'm correct Sigma_ is merely trying to raise awareness with this. As it currently stands as long as both battlers agree this could be added as a clause.

:rolleyes:

~Isaiah

The Jr Trainer
05-28-2008, 09:48 PM
I am dealing with it. If sleep moves are allowed, I'll happily make use of my Gengar. :biggrin: I'm not complaining about it at all. I just find it more fun without sleep moves and I want to see if other people think so.
And I find it more fun without No Guard Fissure. ^______^

Anyways, it's already an option and most people just use Sleep Clause, so I don't see why to bring it up, really. No Sleep Moves is a silly rule, imo. =/ I don't use sleep moves but I know a lot of people that do. If you can't get around one of your Pokemon Sleeping then don't complain about it. :tongue:

*walks away from pointless post* :o

Sigma_
05-28-2008, 09:54 PM
And I find it more fun without No Guard Fissure. ^______^

Anyways, it's already an option and most people just use Sleep Clause, so I don't see why to bring it up, really. No Sleep Moves is a silly rule, imo. =/ I don't use sleep moves but I know a lot of people that do. If you can't get around one of your Pokemon Sleeping then don't complain about it. :tongue:

*walks away from pointless post* :o

Then why don't you make a thread about no OHKO's?

I told you, I want to show more people it exists. Provide some support before you call things silly. And no one is complaining.

Smurf
05-29-2008, 12:34 AM
It's a purely stupid idea, Sigma. There is no point for that rule other than being sore because you lost because one of your pokemon was asleep. =\ Part of the game, suck it up.

Sigma_
05-29-2008, 01:44 AM
It's a purely stupid idea, Sigma. There is no point for that rule other than being sore because you lost because one of your pokemon was asleep. =\ Part of the game, suck it up.

Again, I never said I was sore. :confused: The last match I lost never had anything to do with sleep. If sleep is such a part of the game, let's get rid of sleep clause too then.

Marth
05-29-2008, 07:21 PM
Again, I never said I was sore. :confused: The last match I lost never had anything to do with sleep. If sleep is such a part of the game, let's get rid of sleep clause too then.
That is not possible, since in the Pokémon Stadium 1/2 games it was a forced rule when you fought 3 vs 3 =p Sleep clause is part of the game ^^

Nitrous Oxide
05-29-2008, 07:28 PM
Hey here's an idea.

People will use it if they want and both combatants agree.

/thread

Marth
05-29-2008, 07:32 PM
Heý Lan, read this before you post again:



Additionally, I realize that you said "optional," but did anyone stop to think that one person could ask for it, the other disagree, and then there is a 50% chance that someone is going to get very screwed over in their battle? Again, I know this can happen with other rules, but this one just seems especially lopsided.

Nitrous Oxide
05-29-2008, 07:34 PM
Well, if one person disagrees, then that's life. I mean it happens with Hold Items all the time, and you don't see me complaining. :ermm:

There was never a problem with sleep before, so why make one now? If you can't deal with sleep, stop playing Pokemon.

Smurf
05-29-2008, 09:09 PM
Again, I never said I was sore. :confused: The last match I lost never had anything to do with sleep. If sleep is such a part of the game, let's get rid of sleep clause too then.
What Marthy-poo said. It wasn't started in NB. =\

Besides, where does the maddness end? First no sleep moves, then no par, toxic, soon we'll all just be using attacks back and forth!

My point is, no banning moves or types of moves. It's stupid. =\

Sigma_
05-30-2008, 02:56 AM
That is not possible, since in the Pokémon Stadium 1/2 games it was a forced rule when you fought 3 vs 3 =p Sleep clause is part of the game ^^

Just because something is in the game doesn't necessarily make it correct. Game creators aren't perfect. Even on Diamond/Pearl wi-fi, there are no rules to select besides Single or Double battles and Free Level, Level 50, or Level 100. Ubers are usable too.

There are many competitive games that fans change for the better. MLG Halo 3 rules change the game drastically, but for better balance and teamwork. Something others may be more familiar while I myself am not, is Super Smash Brawl. Items in competitive battles are turned off, although they are by default enabled on. Some stages are even banned.

Well, if one person disagrees, then that's life. I mean it happens with Hold Items all the time, and you don't see me complaining. :ermm:

There was never a problem with sleep before, so why make one now? If you can't deal with sleep, stop playing Pokemon.

Not a problem, but something I think would be an improvement. RSE, DP, etc. (matches where moves are shown publicly) didn't enforce taking turns sending moves until Pika57 suggested it long after the URPG started.

What Marthy-poo said. It wasn't started in NB. =\

Besides, where does the maddness end? First no sleep moves, then no par, toxic, soon we'll all just be using attacks back and forth!

My point is, no banning moves or types of moves. It's stupid. =\

Slippery slopes are logical fallacies.

Smurf
05-30-2008, 03:10 AM
Just because something is in the game doesn't necessarily make it correct. Game creators aren't perfect. Even on Diamond/Pearl wi-fi, there are no rules to select besides Single or Double battles and Free Level, Level 50, or Level 100. Ubers are usable too.

There are many competitive games that fans change for the better. MLG Halo 3 rules change the game drastically, but for better balance and teamwork. Something others may be more familiar while I myself am not, is Super Smash Brawl. Items in competitive battles are turned off, although they are by default enabled on. Some stages are even banned.



Not a problem, but something I think would be an improvement.



Slippery slopes are logical fallacies.
This entire thread is a logical fallacy!

Starkipraggy
05-30-2008, 03:13 AM
Just because something is in the game doesn't necessarily make it correct. Game creators aren't perfect. Even on Diamond/Pearl wi-fi, there are no rules to select besides Single or Double battles and Free Level, Level 50, or Level 100. Ubers are usable too.

There are many competitive games that fans change for the better. MLG Halo 3 rules change the game drastically, but for better balance and teamwork. Something others may be more familiar while I myself am not, is Super Smash Brawl. Items in competitive battles are turned off, although they are by default enabled on. Some stages are even banned.



Not a problem, but something I think would be an improvement.



Slippery slopes are logical fallacies.
This argument is totally pointless. :/

If two people battling against each other don't want sleep moves, then they can put this clause into effect. :/ It's a perfectly legal clause, right? Like Nitrous_Oxide said, this is basically the same level of change as allowing/disallowing Held items in battle. It's up to the players to decide it. In the case of differing opinions, they'll just have to settle it themselves, which, in my limited experience, happens pretty much 100% of the time. It's not such a big deal anyway. So let's drop the subject and move on.

Oh, and I concurr that if you are not able to deal with sleep moves, then too bad. No team is perfect, and better teams have something called a "cleric". Yawn to force switches is one of the standard things out there (Yawnshuffling), and Yawn still has a few other uses. Banning it just cuts down on the number of strategies that can be used.

Zombie Muse
05-30-2008, 03:18 AM
I think it's an okay rule, but for only 1vs1-2vs2. 3vs3 is just too far. But I say that both opponents have to agree if one doesn't then they don't have it, and can have the Sleep Clause.

Sigma_
05-30-2008, 04:20 AM
This entire thread is a logical fallacy!

How so? If you're questioning whether your post earlier is really a logical fallacy or not: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

This argument is totally pointless. :/

If two people battling against each other don't want sleep moves, then they can put this clause into effect. :/ It's a perfectly legal clause, right? Like Nitrous_Oxide said, this is basically the same level of change as allowing/disallowing Held items in battle. It's up to the players to decide it. In the case of differing opinions, they'll just have to settle it themselves, which, in my limited experience, happens pretty much 100% of the time. It's not such a big deal anyway. So let's drop the subject and move on.

Oh, and I concurr that if you are not able to deal with sleep moves, then too bad. No team is perfect, and better teams have something called a "cleric". Yawn to force switches is one of the standard things out there (Yawnshuffling), and Yawn still has a few other uses. Banning it just cuts down on the number of strategies that can be used.

If it's not a big deal, why even post? Are you Lan? http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2244031&postcount=29

I'm talking about a 3 VS. 3 URPG environment. Where residual damage moves such as Spikes are rarely seen if ever. Roar and Whirlwind force shuffling anyways. Few Heal Bellers or Aromatherapists exist, some are even legendary and not normally obtainable, Crobat and Gengar (sleepers) can Taunt them too. Putting a Pokemon to sleep is a very common thing to do. Just check my ref log. Maybe if it isn't allowed every once in a while, we will start seeing other strategies.

DaRkUmBrEoN
05-31-2008, 08:43 PM
A message from your resident sleepwhore:

Shortly after everyone found out that I was buttraping them when I had my gym, everyone would make sure to either include Sleep Clause or use abilities to counter my sleep moves and chloro-speed-boost. Even then, that would suffice for most of the </= 3vs3 matches. No one complained then, and I don't see why someone would complain now.

No sleep moves were coined iirc by FFA refs desiring not to roll half a dozen sleep dice. IMO, no sleep moves should stay in the FFA realm and only be brought to single battles when it's either a tournament or dead obvious the opponent is being cheap and you want a decent fight.

-]DU[-

Subside
06-01-2008, 09:43 PM
Meh, my two cents (though don't expect much that hasn't already been said (haven't read the entire thread)).

So, as you brought this up for the sake of others being more aware of it, lets say it catchs on and newer members insist on having no sleep moves as they have hardly any mons that can counter it, then it may soon end up that all status problem moves should be optional. Personally thats not the way i want to play the game, I'm thinking a bit far ahead, but hey it could happen.

Also I think that there may be one or two abilities (pick me up on this if I'm wrong, it's been a while since i played the game, heh) that induce sleep, are we to just ignore them aswell?

Sleep moves are just as much part of the game as any other moves, having a rule (though optional) seems quite stupid, if you can't think of a decent way to get around them, the solution is simple, stop playing the game.

Fire Away
06-01-2008, 09:51 PM
I don't subscribe to the slippery slope theory because Toxic/Paralysis/Burn is nowhere near as broken a status ailment as sleep.

The only ability that comes to mind that induces sleep is Effect Spore. I think the assumption would be that you simply wouldn't roll for the sleep effect if it was included, in the same way you wouldn't roll for freeze if something has been frozen under Freeze Clause.

I personally don't think that this is a bad idea at all for 1v1/2v2 matches -- in 1v1 sleep is basically an auto-win, and in 2v2 it's a pretty huge advantage. It's not to say that it couldn't be worked around, but relying on Sleep Talk or the rather average Snore attack is unreliable.

Poltergeist
06-02-2008, 08:42 PM
There are enough ways to counter sleep, for example insomnia and items, that I believe banning sleep moves is completely unesseccary. If you don't want to fight sleep moves just ask for the sleep clause.

Haze
06-06-2008, 02:34 AM
Flame me or whatever for saying this, but I think Sleep moves should be banned in the WAR Double Battles. It becomes basically a 1 vs 2 and you're almost garunteed to lose. So yea, thats my opinion :\

screech1941
06-15-2008, 03:22 AM
I will not stand for this. Pro-Choice!