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Viva la Gofre
05-30-2008, 06:58 PM
Hi all.
It recently came to my attention that there is an event being organised, where a team of the best American Pokemon players were to be pitted against the best of Japan. Naturally I was interested, even though I do not live in either country. I thought it was great that a pokemon tournament is being brought onto a national scale, hopefully the first of many. However, this is where the excitement ended. Take a look at the rules (My commentaries are in bold):

-Battles are played using the 2-on-2 format.
Off to a bad start already. I cannot think of any serious player on any of the three forums I am part of who specialises in doubles, in fact most don;t play them at all. There are no established strategies concerning doubles and the games I have played are usually just crammed with gimmicky strategies like exploding one poke and protecting with the other.

-A player’s team must consist of exactly 4 Pokémon. Players may change Pokémon between rounds, though each Pokémon must still meet the rules outlined in this document.
Again, this throws the established rules of pokemon out of the window. Team composition is undeniably a vital part of the game, with each poke playing a certain role. With only four pokes allowed, that significantly reduces the amount of options available. Teams will be left missing walls or spinners ect, making weaknesses far more exploitible.

-A player’s team may not contain two of the same Pokémon.
Species clause, fair enough

-Each Pokémon on a player’s team must be level 50 or lower. Pokémon’s levels will not be auto-adjusted during the tournament. Pokémon above level 50 are not permitted for use during this event.
This really gripes me. Namely because it leaves dragonite and tyranitar banned. Yes they're strong, but they're hardly gamebreaking when compared to garchomp who is allowed due to its level. Established movesets may not be obtainable and the level is so low the EVs of some pokemon will not be in full effect. This seems like it will significantly imbalance the game system.

-Each Pokémon on a player’s team may use held items, though no 2 Pokémon on a team may hold the same item. Players may change held items between rounds. Allowed items include held items from Pokémon Diamond, Pokémon Pearl, and earlier video games, including Berries 1-60. The Soul Dew item may not be used.
No berries? This alone is a stupid rule. Berries are hardly overused, but it again reduces the number of established strategies that are viable in this tournament like sub-salac. The limit of 1 of an item per team is stupid, as items like leftovers are benficial but not a significant help or hinderance.

Players may not enter two Pokémon with the same nickname.
Understandable

Players may not enter a Pokémon nicknamed with the name of another
Pokémon character (ex: a Lucario nicknamed “Spiritomb”).
Understandable

Players found to have inappropriate/offensive Trainer names or Pokémon nicknames, as determined by the event staff, will be disqualified from the event.
Understandable


Pokémon Restrictions:
Players may use Pokémon found in the Pokémon Diamond and Pokémon Pearl National Dex, between 001 and 491, including those Pokémon imported from earlier video games, with the exception of those Pokémon listed below.

The following Pokémon are ineligible for use in the tournament:

149 - Dragonite
150 - Mewtwo
151 - Mew
248 - Tyranitar
249 - Lugia
250 - Ho-Oh
251 - Celebi
382 - Kyogre
383 - Groudon
384 - Rayquaza
385 - Jirachi
386 - Deoxys
483 - Dialga
484 - Palkia
485 - Heatran
486 - Regigigas
487 - Giratina
489 - Phione
490 - Manaphy
491 - Darkrai
This is a terrible banlist. Many OU pokes are in here and a few ubers are not. There will be wobuffets running riot, and even with their soul dews gone the latis are arguably better than several of the pokes they have banned.

So yeah, am I right in thinking that this terrible battle format will detract from the appeal to the expert players it is trying to attract? If the creators of the site were to have done a bit of research or even used nintendo's battle system, then there would be signifcantly better players entering. To me, this tournament will not gie japan a good idea of what the western world is capable of.

So... Thoughts?

www.showdown.pokemon.com

Fire Away
05-30-2008, 07:00 PM
Poorly organized tournaments are done all the time.

The best thing to do is just scoff, roll your eyes and move on.

*scoffs* :rolleyes:

Shun Goku Satsu
05-30-2008, 07:46 PM
I think your reaction to it is a bit OTT. If you don't like the rules then don't play.

I believe the item rule states you CAN use berries. You seem to be under the impression you can't.

As for who is banned and who isn't... Wobbuffets aren't nearly as effective in double battles. You try predicting if you will be hit with a special or physical attack when you have both forms of sweeper oposing you.
I couldn't care less if dragonite or regigigas isn't usable. How many people would have actually used them anyway.
And lol at the poor people who can't abuse T-tar or heatran. Guess thay'll have to find another OU poke to abuse.

I like that it's doubles too. Now serious competitors will actually be put to the test. There wont be any snatching move-sets from smogon

Stubby Boardman
05-30-2008, 09:18 PM
I personally won't enter the tournament because of the rule of lv50 and lower used only. I love to train my pokes to level 100 and if they won't reduce them lv50 then they are a bunch of idiots.

Shun Goku Satsu
05-30-2008, 09:46 PM
I personally won't enter the tournament because of the rule of lv50 and lower used only. I love to train my pokes to level 100 and if they won't reduce them lv50 then they are a bunch of idiots.
Your pokes *is making an assumption* are probabley trained for single matches. They need completley different EV spreads and move-sets for a doubles battle, making your already trained pokes redundant. I should think that a lot of people will be starting to build a team from scratch

Stubby Boardman
05-30-2008, 10:19 PM
Your pokes *is making an assumption* are probabley trained for single matches. They need completley different EV spreads and move-sets for a doubles battle, making your already trained pokes redundant. I should think that a lot of people will be starting to build a team from scratch

I like double battles better actually, but just like to train all my pokemon to lv100.

Shun Goku Satsu
05-30-2008, 10:23 PM
I like double battles better actually.
I knew if i assumed someone for not playing doubles, they would turn around and say they do lol

hsb39
05-31-2008, 09:27 AM
I believe that most of the rules are fair. Hear me out. Double battles means a new challenge, it means that people that have been doing singles for the last one and a half years will have to think of something new. I LIKE ITEM CLAUSE! Just going for Lefties (which in Doubles isn't that common anyway, I don't see how more than 1/4 of your Pokemon in Doubles should have Lefties), is a boring strategy that requires no skill, Item Clause makes it so that there must be skill in item choice. I agree that the ban list is stupid, only because Lati@s isn't banned, 10 bucks says that the winner will use Lati@s.

In short, it is forcing people to use a new way of competition, even with only four Pokemon, especially since in Doubles there is a bit of a lack of Spikes and Tanks.

Starkipraggy
05-31-2008, 12:49 PM
I believe that most of the rules are fair. Hear me out. Double battles means a new challenge, it means that people that have been doing singles for the last one and a half years will have to think of something new. I LIKE ITEM CLAUSE! Just going for Lefties (which in Doubles isn't that common anyway, I don't see how more than 1/4 of your Pokemon in Doubles should have Lefties), is a boring strategy that requires no skill, Item Clause makes it so that there must be skill in item choice. I agree that the ban list is stupid, only because Lati@s isn't banned, 10 bucks says that the winner will use Lati@s.

In short, it is forcing people to use a new way of competition, even with only four Pokemon, especially since in Doubles there is a bit of a lack of Spikes and Tanks.
True. The rules are fair enough IMO.

Item clause is standard in-game (Battle Frontier, which is the epitome of in-game competitive :/). Dragonite and T-Tar are tough, but losing them won't be too great of a loss since there's everything else.

I agree about the Lati@s though. How are those two not uber? I mean, sure they're not banned in Battle Frontier, but really now...

And OU pokes might not be able to function effectively in Double Battle, so keep that in mind. On the upside, Cresselia and Spiritomb aren't banned. Yay?

The first combo that comes to me off the top of my head is LightningRod Rhyperior and any variation of Gyarados. :/ I also smell a Slaking Mismagius combination. Not neccessarily Mismagius, but it was a possiblity I thought of. Mismagius is pretty fast: Skill Swap with Slaking, then Destiny Bond/Grudge and hope Mismagius dies fast.

My guess is that these event organisers are working more off the rules of the Japan players, probably because it's Nintendo sanctioned (Nintendo is a Japanese company if you didn't know) and thus more "idiotproof".

Shun Goku Satsu
05-31-2008, 01:33 PM
True. The rules are fair enough IMO.

Item clause is standard in-game (Battle Frontier, which is the epitome of in-game competitive :/). Dragonite and T-Tar are tough, but losing them won't be too great of a loss since there's everything else.

I agree about the Lati@s though. How are those two not uber? I mean, sure they're not banned in Battle Frontier, but really now...

And OU pokes might not be able to function effectively in Double Battle, so keep that in mind. On the upside, Cresselia and Spiritomb aren't banned. Yay?

The first combo that comes to me off the top of my head is LightningRod Rhyperior and any variation of Gyarados. :/ I also smell a Slaking Mismagius combination. Not neccessarily Mismagius, but it was a possiblity I thought of. Mismagius is pretty fast: Skill Swap with Slaking, then Destiny Bond/Grudge and hope Mismagius dies fast.

My guess is that these event organisers are working more off the rules of the Japan players, probably because it's Nintendo sanctioned (Nintendo is a Japanese company if you didn't know) and thus more "idiotproof".
The lati@s are awesome so there's no doubt people will be abusing them. The problem being that most stabbed dark / bug / ice / dragon attacks that are physical will 1HKO them. They may survive an ice beam but they don't survive X-scissor or avalanch. I should think people will see them coming and prepare for them.


Personally, i think double battles makes the whole thing more interesting. Sure, we'll have people abusing lapras + vaporeon water absorb, explosion + protect / ghost, and lightening rod + gyarados combos. But with any luck, this will have people making much more original teams and may open there minds to the awesomeness that is double battles.


Oh, and LOL and people who spit their dummies out at something just because it isn't standard

shedinjask
05-31-2008, 03:11 PM
Makes me want to organize an actual competitive intercontinental tourney. Standard rules (no item clause) and everything.

Starkipraggy
05-31-2008, 03:50 PM
Makes me want to organize an actual competitive intercontinental tourney. Standard rules (no item clause) and everything.
The problem is that what is standard here might not be standard in Japan. It's better to start with the Nintendo guidelines and then make modifications.

The rules are kinda okay anyway. I don't see why people are kicking up so much fuss. :/ Just because the rules aren't what you're used to doesn't mean it's complete crap

hsb39
06-01-2008, 12:19 AM
I have been in some Nintendo comps, two of them were "Non-Uber" but let Lati@s, the really cool thing is that the person who won one of them was using a team of Abomasnow, Mamoswine and Frosslass. The other time I lost in the first round to the winner who used Latios (I actually could have one but made a stupid move). There was one Ubers comp, I did rather well in that, but I lost to someone whose friend was looking onto my screen and it still got down to time limit (he had a Blissey). Item Clause made these comps A LOT more interesting, especially the Ubers one as anyone who wanted Blissey needed to make sure that they had a free Lefties spot.

And as for the Lvl. 50, the main thing there is that people have time to train up a new team before it starts, in case maybe they usually play in UU or have a Lvl.100s team for Singles.