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Starkipraggy
11-07-2008, 08:47 AM
Made for the sole purpose of Encore abuse. I tested it a bit, and seems to hold. Mostly because of Charizard, admittedly.

Burning! (Infernape) (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Fake Out
- Stealth Rock
- Close Combat
- Encore

Fake Out, Stealth Rock, try to Encore, survive via Sash, live to Encore another day. Simple.

Okuwamon (Scizor) (M) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Reversal
- X-Scissor

lol tried to copy Digimon. Sub up, try to net an SD on the way, then when Swarm kicks in with Salac sweep with X-Scissor. Anything that refuses to die to it eats Reversal.

Eww, Gross! (Metagross) @ Life Orb
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 144 HP/252 Atk/112 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Agility
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Thunderpunch

Agiligross go! I managed to get the EVs from memory, lol.

SuperStar! (Starmie) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 170 HP/252 Spd/88 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Surf

If you plan on switching a lot with Encore, you need a Spinner to beat out entry hazards. Starmie also likes to kill Gyarados.

Togekiss (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP/20 Def/236 Spd
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Air Slash
- Encore
- Wish
- Thunder Wave

Encore + Wish Support is win. Togekiss also likes to kill other Togekiss.

ZARD (Charizard) (M) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Belly Drum
- Fire Punch
- Substitute
- Earthquake

The epitome of Encore abuse. Come in, use that extra turn to put you all the way on top and chow down. Fire Punch just rapes, ESPECIALLY with Stealth Rock support. Gyarados is outright killed from 80% with Fire Punch. Same for Blastoise. Flash Fire mons are beaten with good ol' EQ.


I really, really need suggestions for mons that can abuse Encore turns, because two Steels are odd somehow. O_o

Quillink
11-07-2008, 10:25 AM
Looks good to my newb eyes. =3

Starkipraggy
11-21-2008, 12:24 PM
Bumping, because I seriously need help with this team. @_@

-Holland-
11-22-2008, 12:27 AM
Well, reading this, I was a bit skeptical on you having two Pokemon made solely for Encore, but I would surmise that you really a need a sturdy one like Togekiss to do it, since Infernape has a nasty habit of dying to faster offensive threats.

My only real gripe with this team, though, is that having two great physical sweepers is...great, yet ineffective when walled. Moreover, they both require serious set-up, and worse yet, if they are trapped and staring death in the face, they must either switch and become much less effective sweepers (well, not Scizor so much, but Charizard especially) or just be killed to allow something a safe switch-in. For this reason alone, I would recommend that Scizor become a Choice Band user or a utility Baton Passer. Assuming no Platinum updates implemented:

Scizor @Choice Band
Adamant, 4 HP, 252 Att., 252 Speed
w/ Technician
- X-Scissor
- Pursuit
- Iron Head/Quick Attack
- Brick Break

This thing is really just a monstrous attacker that can dish out a hit instantly with good coverage and quite some longevity. If you want it to live longer, you can give it some more HP EVs (even all 252 from Speed if you like), but this is generally a poor option on the Choice Band version, as it will fail to outspeed many threats that it's meant to come briefly in on and absolutely slaughter. Iron Head is honestly just powerful STAB if you want to dish out a generally powerful hit, but Quick Attack is always a viable option for offing faster foes. (If you use Platinum updates, Bullet Punch is always welcome, save for Zapdos' ability to wall you).

Also, I think you need something that takes Water hits very well, as Starmie can take them for only so long. Vaporeon's obviously one of the best choices for this, but I don't know how that would really fit on your team.

Starkipraggy
11-22-2008, 02:09 AM
Well, reading this, I was a bit skeptical on you having two Pokemon made solely for Encore, but I would surmise that you really a need a sturdy one like Togekiss to do it, since Infernape has a nasty habit of dying to faster offensive threats.

My only real gripe with this team, though, is that having two great physical sweepers is...great, yet ineffective when walled. Moreover, they both require serious set-up, and worse yet, if they are trapped and staring death in the face, they must either switch and become much less effective sweepers (well, not Scizor so much, but Charizard especially) or just be killed to allow something a safe switch-in. For this reason alone, I would recommend that Scizor become a Choice Band user or a utility Baton Passer. Assuming no Platinum updates implemented:

Scizor @Choice Band
Adamant, 4 HP, 252 Att., 252 Speed
w/ Technician
- X-Scissor
- Pursuit
- Iron Head/Quick Attack
- Brick Break

This thing is really just a monstrous attacker that can dish out a hit instantly with good coverage and quite some longevity. If you want it to live longer, you can give it some more HP EVs (even all 252 from Speed if you like), but this is generally a poor option on the Choice Band version, as it will fail to outspeed many threats that it's meant to come briefly in on and absolutely slaughter. Iron Head is honestly just powerful STAB if you want to dish out a generally powerful hit, but Quick Attack is always a viable option for offing faster foes. (If you use Platinum updates, Bullet Punch is always welcome, save for Zapdos' ability to wall you).

Also, I think you need something that takes Water hits very well, as Starmie can take them for only so long. Vaporeon's obviously one of the best choices for this, but I don't know how that would really fit on your team.
Well, I'm playing it on Shoddy, so I can implement Platinum changes, really. But I'm not sure how to configure Platinum Scizor to be a dangerous 1-turn set-up sweeper. :x

I feel like getting a sweeper from the Special end, but there're no mons that I can think of that can set-up in one turn and sweep from the Special spectrum. Hmm.

I guess I can lose Metagross for something. :x I could take Vaporeon for more support, but then, I'll be sitting on two physical sweepers. Hmm.

I wonder if MixApe could go over Gross to wallbreak. :P

-Holland-
11-22-2008, 02:41 AM
You don't know a special sweeper like that?

Nasty Plot Azelf (and Houndoom) and Swift Swim Kingdra instantly come to mind for me. Azelf is insanely powerful, and his old and largely forgotten special sweeper set (spurned for the ubiquity of the SR lead...which itself is dying out now in the wake of other variants) is still extremely potent, and can obliterate all remains of a team late game. Houndoom is good at this as well, but the main advantage over Azelf that I've thus far derived from him is the Fire immunity, which is something that any user of more than one physical sweeper will come to treasure dearly.

Swift Swim Kingdra is generally just an excellent buffer Pokemon in almost any battle, since Surf's/Hydro Pump's STAB goes from a 1.5 multiplier to 2.25, and his great defenses, decent HP, and Speed that can easily surpass 500 in the Rain wholly bolster his attacking power and viability on the whole. Moreover, he has a 4x resistance to both Fire and Water, making him an excellent Water resist (but not necessarily a counter), and an excellent switch-in on any Heatran that doesn't try to out-think you and use Dragon Pulse as you switch (or Explode on you afterward...but hey, even Blissey is afraid of this). Kingdra's epic.

Porygon-Z is really only a moderate special sweeper, though, as even after setting up, many common strategies made to counter other OU threats just happen to obliterate Porygon-Z as well. He's good, but too slow to justify the power, and too frail to justify the lack of Speed.

Starkipraggy
11-22-2008, 02:57 AM
You don't know a special sweeper like that?

Nasty Plot Azelf (and Houndoom) and Swift Swim Kingdra instantly come to mind for me. Azelf is insanely powerful, and his old and largely forgotten special sweeper set (spurned for the ubiquity of the SR lead...which itself is dying out now in the wake of other variants) is still extremely potent, and can obliterate all remains of a team late game. Houndoom is good at this as well, but the main advantage over Azelf that I've thus far derived from him is the Fire immunity, which is something that any user of more than one physical sweeper will come to treasure dearly.

Swift Swim Kingdra is generally just an excellent buffer Pokemon in almost any battle, since Surf's/Hydro Pump's STAB goes from a 1.5 multiplier to 2.25, and his great defenses, decent HP, and Speed that can easily surpass 500 in the Rain wholly bolster his attacking power and viability on the whole. Moreover, he has a 4x resistance to both Fire and Water, making him an excellent Water resist (but not necessarily a counter), and an excellent switch-in on any Heatran that doesn't try to out-think you and use Dragon Pulse as you switch (or Explode on you afterward...but hey, even Blissey is afraid of this). Kingdra's epic.

Porygon-Z is really only a moderate special sweeper, though, as even after setting up, many common strategies made to counter other OU threats just happen to obliterate Porygon-Z as well. He's good, but too slow to justify the power, and too frail to justify the lack of Speed.
-headbangs wall-

Can't believe I didn't think of those. :x

Hmm, Swift Swimdra over Scizor and Vaporeon over Gross? Or maybe I'll get NP MixApe over Gross? @_@ Hmmmm.

-Holland-
11-22-2008, 03:03 AM
-headbangs wall-

Can't believe I didn't think of those. :x

Hmm, Swift Swimdra over Scizor and Vaporeon over Gross? Or maybe I'll get NP MixApe over Gross? @_@ Hmmmm.

If you're going for Kingdra over Scizor, then Vaporeon's rather redundant, unless you really want Wish and Toxic/Yawn support. Mixed Infernape sounds good, but what becomes your lead, then? I mean, you had a bit of a unique set with the Encore lead - something I think can work if played out just right - , but if you forgo that Infernape for the Mixed, how do you plan to set all this into motion?

Starkipraggy
11-22-2008, 03:13 AM
If you're going for Kingdra over Scizor, then Vaporeon's rather redundant, unless you really want Wish and Toxic/Yawn support. Mixed Infernape sounds good, but what becomes your lead, then? I mean, you had a bit of a unique set with the Encore lead - something I think can work if played out just right - , but if you forgo that Infernape for the Mixed, how do you plan to set all this into motion?
Crap, I forgot about Species Clause. @_@

Hmm, I'll have to forgo MixApe for wall-breaking then. :x I still have great need for a wallbreaker, unless I just force my way through walls. :P Is a mixed Swift Swim Kingdra set viable? :x If yes maybe I'll have NP Azelf over Gross instead. :3

-Holland-
11-22-2008, 03:31 AM
Crap, I forgot about Species Clause. @_@

Hmm, I'll have to forgo MixApe for wall-breaking then. :x I still have great need for a wallbreaker, unless I just force my way through walls. :P Is a mixed Swift Swim Kingdra set viable? :x If yes maybe I'll have NP Azelf over Gross instead. :3

Yeah, I forgot what the EVs were, but Waterfall was designed to 2HKO Blissey in the rain. Typically that's all you need to make good work of a wall breaker: kill Blissey and manage nicely against everything else. Personally, I don't recommend it, as Kingdra is a good choice for killing Steels like Scizor and Metagross most of the time, and sacrificing some of the Special Attacking power may compromise that. I'm not exactly sure what would happen, but that's just my perspective on it.

For wall-breaking, though, you're usually best with Mixed Infernape or Mixed Salamence, since they're powerful enough as it is to be immediately effective when brought in under the right circumstances. Kingdra is really only mixed in order to thwart Blissey. Otherwise, you may realize that he'll just get that fat blob out of the way solely to start obliterating things with his special attacks.

Starkipraggy
11-22-2008, 03:54 AM
Yeah, I forgot what the EVs were, but Waterfall was designed to 2HKO Blissey in the rain. Typically that's all you need to make good work of a wall breaker: kill Blissey and manage nicely against everything else. Personally, I don't recommend it, as Kingdra is a good choice for killing Steels like Scizor and Metagross most of the time, and sacrificing some of the Special Attacking power may compromise that. I'm not exactly sure what would happen, but that's just my perspective on it.

For wall-breaking, though, you're usually best with Mixed Infernape or Mixed Salamence, since they're powerful enough as it is to be immediately effective when brought in under the right circumstances. Kingdra is really only mixed in order to thwart Blissey. Otherwise, you may realize that he'll just get that fat blob out of the way solely to start obliterating things with his special attacks.
Oh right, there be Mixed Mence. :x

MixedMence over Gross, and Kingdra on pure Special offense. :P That sounds good. I shall test it as soon as my Java stops dying. D: Shoddy!!!

-Holland-
11-22-2008, 04:10 AM
Oh right, there be Mixed Mence. :x

MixedMence over Gross, and Kingdra on pure Special offense. :P That sounds good. I shall test it as soon as my Java stops dying. D: Shoddy!!!

You're going to have to be really careful of Dragon attacks with that team, though. It's not vital that you get a Dragon resist immediately, as Togekiss can take the hits (not exactly tank them), but something stuck on Outrage can mess you up if you don't watch it...Choice Scarf Flygon is extremely threatening now that it gets Outrage, so be mindful.

Starkipraggy
11-22-2008, 04:38 AM
You're going to have to be really careful of Dragon attacks with that team, though. It's not vital that you get a Dragon resist immediately, as Togekiss can take the hits (not exactly tank them), but something stuck on Outrage can mess you up if you don't watch it...Choice Scarf Flygon is extremely threatening now that it gets Outrage, so be mindful.
Ah yes, that niggling thing. Humph. I wonder if I should carry Ice Beam on Starmie. Dropping Surf leaves me unable to deal with other Infernape, and dropping T-Bolt puts me in danger of Gyarados. Hmmmmm.

Starkipraggy
11-27-2008, 03:34 PM
Sorry for double-post, but I needed the bump. :x

Okay, presenting EncoreBot v2. I pretty much tore up the team's attackers and areplaced them and this actually netted me a win streak of 3 on smogon's shoddy server. Highest ever :x Changes will be in bold.



Burning! (Infernape) (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 64 Atk/252 SAtk/232Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Fire Blast
- Stealth Rock
- Close Combat
- Encore

Modified Mixape. :P I call it the Encore MixApe. Kills Bliss, scares stuff away with Fire Blast, has Encore, sets up SR. :P

King! (Kingdra) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 92 HP/252 SAtk/162 Spd
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Rain Dance
- Surf
- Dragon Pulse
- HP [Electric]

Swift Swim Kingdra has no weak. :P Tanks SkyMin's Seed Flare, sets up Rain, and kills right back with Dragon Pulse. :3

Gengar (Gengar) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 136 Atk/120 Atk/252 Spd
Naive nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Hypnosis
- Focus Blast
- Explosion
- Shadow Ball

More anti-Blissey measues. Explosion is a sure-kill with the EVs, attacks for STAB and coverage, and Hypnosis to cripple. :P

SuperStar! (Starmie) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 170 HP/252 Spd/88 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Surf

If you plan on switching a lot with Encore, you need a Spinner to beat out entry hazards. Starmie also likes to kill Gyarados.

Togekiss (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP/20 Def/236 Spd
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Air Slash
- Encore
- Substitute
- Baton Pass

Passing subs facilitates set-up even further. Time to kick butt.

Zeta Gundam (Porygon-Z) (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Download
EVs: 4 HP/252 SAtk/252 Spd
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Agility
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- HP [Fighting]

This is DANGEROUS. This is ESPECIALLY for those scenarios where I Encore a set-up move. Switch Porygon in, hopefully get a Download boost, Agility first, see what they switch in. If Sash is still there, go for Nasty Plot. If not, go straight for the kill. If they don't switch anything in... Have fun. :P Shadow Ball and HP Fight give perfect coverage. Auto-kill.

As said, changes in bold. Comment?

-Holland-
12-02-2008, 05:45 AM
Since Starmie has Thunderbolt, you really don't need HP Electric on Kingdra. Ice Beam gives him good coverage and helps him to thoroughly destroy any Sky Shaymin with ease and without hesitation.

With Gengar, I never really rely on Hypnosis, but if you want it, you can have it. Hidden Power Ice always helps.

As for Porygon-Z, I've actually used that set before, and it works quite well if you have Light Screen/Reflect (or better yet, both) set up, so you can pump your stats up to insane levels for serious sweeping. However, I never rely on Focus Sash off of a lead, so I'd at least recommend Leftovers in its stead, as Porygon-Z will likely be taking hits in the process of setting up. However, with Porygon-Z, I think it's most effective when it's protected by Light Screen and Reflect...so a Bronzong would be very useful if you've got one hanging around to support the team. It's not necessary, but it helps a lot.

Starkipraggy
12-02-2008, 08:53 AM
Since Starmie has Thunderbolt, you really don't need HP Electric on Kingdra. Ice Beam gives him good coverage and helps him to thoroughly destroy any Sky Shaymin with ease and without hesitation.

With Gengar, I never really rely on Hypnosis, but if you want it, you can have it. Hidden Power Ice always helps.

As for Porygon-Z, I've actually used that set before, and it works quite well if you have Light Screen/Reflect (or better yet, both) set up, so you can pump your stats up to insane levels for serious sweeping. However, I never rely on Focus Sash off of a lead, so I'd at least recommend Leftovers in its stead, as Porygon-Z will likely be taking hits in the process of setting up. However, with Porygon-Z, I think it's most effective when it's protected by Light Screen and Reflect...so a Bronzong would be very useful if you've got one hanging around to support the team. It's not necessary, but it helps a lot.
Double screen Zong lead? It could work... If I steer this away from the Encore direction. :x Perhaps I can double screen and then use Encore. But I've found that set effective with Encore support as well, if the other guy can't ruin my Sash. Which hasn't happened yet. I've found one NP and one Agility sufficient for ripping through anything. I should run a few calcs for Bronzong just in case, since that fat thing likes to take neutral from P-Z's moves. :x

I'm considering Lum Berry on Togekiss so I can safely switch in into status, Sub, then Encore it. Or Encore status then sub.

I opted for HP Electric on Kingdra to stop Empoleon from blocking me. I'm considering Signal Beam for Celebi. And Dragon Pulse already KOs SkyMin with SR support, but I'll consider Ice Beam anyway to cover both Min and Celebi.

And yeah, I got this RMT onto smogon, so don't be surprised at similar team. :x

-Holland-
12-03-2008, 12:06 AM
Well, Encore works fine as well; I really just tend to anticipate the offensive approach because, invariably, that's what I follow through on. Encore's fine; I'm just not a very good user of it, so how could I give examples?

Since Togekiss will likely be taking on tanks most of the time, the Lum Berry sounds like a good idea, especially since it doesn't have Roost to make things hurt less.

And as for Empoleon, it's really not that dangerous if you switch in Starmie as soon as the chance arises. Also, I guess you can rely on Stealth Rock damage to kill Sky Shaymin, since Gengar can block Rapid Spin to an extent. However, you can never rely on putting up Stealth Rock in the first place, unless you're absolutely omniscient on the subject of your opponent. Now, I doubt that you are, so what you really have to do is assess how much of a threat Sky Shaymin is to you. I typically find Kingdra to be a great candidate to kill it with (since people typically expect physical Dragon Dancing versions), as Ice Beam will slaughter him like nothing. Of course, I put Sky Shaymin (as well as Togekiss) on high priority, since they have an uncanny upper hand with Serene Grace and Air Slash's flinch rate.

Starkipraggy
12-03-2008, 02:52 AM
Well, Encore works fine as well; I really just tend to anticipate the offensive approach because, invariably, that's what I follow through on. Encore's fine; I'm just not a very good user of it, so how could I give examples?

Since Togekiss will likely be taking on tanks most of the time, the Lum Berry sounds like a good idea, especially since it doesn't have Roost to make things hurt less.

And as for Empoleon, it's really not that dangerous if you switch in Starmie as soon as the chance arises. Also, I guess you can rely on Stealth Rock damage to kill Sky Shaymin, since Gengar can block Rapid Spin to an extent. However, you can never rely on putting up Stealth Rock in the first place, unless you're absolutely omniscient on the subject of your opponent. Now, I doubt that you are, so what you really have to do is assess how much of a threat Sky Shaymin is to you. I typically find Kingdra to be a great candidate to kill it with (since people typically expect physical Dragon Dancing versions), as Ice Beam will slaughter him like nothing. Of course, I put Sky Shaymin (as well as Togekiss) on high priority, since they have an uncanny upper hand with Serene Grace and Air Slash's flinch rate.
Encore is a big anti-spin deterrent though, since if you come in on the Encorers and try to spin you're just letting me set-up. :P

I'm thinking that Empoleon shouldn't be able to hurt Kingdra too much, so double STABed Surf can probably remove Empoleon before Empoleon does me. Now I'm down to Ice Beam vs Signal Beam. I'll run some calcs when I get home to see if there's any real difference between Signal Beam and Ice Beam on Kingdra for Celebi.

Most SkyMin go for Seed Flare first I thought. Maybe I was lucky on that one encounter, but Kingdra survived the Seed Flare, Rain Danced, outsped for the KO, then proceeded to sweep.

atucker22
12-03-2008, 12:40 PM
I don't know much about rating but this team is hilarious :crackup::crackup:

I think the overuse of encore is a bold strategy and could be both good or bad

shucklerules
12-03-2008, 04:22 PM
I also prefer Hidden Power Ice over Hypnosis on Gengar. Diarago is right Choice Scarf Outrage from Mence or Flygon could really screw you over. You could switch to a more offensive version of Starmie with Ice Beam over Recover. Maybe a better option is giving Gengar T-bolt over Hypnosis and then take Ice Beam over Thunderbolt on Starmie.

-Holland-
12-04-2008, 12:04 AM
Encore is a big anti-spin deterrent though, since if you come in on the Encorers and try to spin you're just letting me set-up. :P

I'm thinking that Empoleon shouldn't be able to hurt Kingdra too much, so double STABed Surf can probably remove Empoleon before Empoleon does me. Now I'm down to Ice Beam vs Signal Beam. I'll run some calcs when I get home to see if there's any real difference between Signal Beam and Ice Beam on Kingdra for Celebi.

Most SkyMin go for Seed Flare first I thought. Maybe I was lucky on that one encounter, but Kingdra survived the Seed Flare, Rain Danced, outsped for the KO, then proceeded to sweep.

An opposing lead running Fake Out and other offensive moves can still run in circles around Encore, namely a Life Orb Ambipom that uses Fake Out to ruin the Focus Sash, and then U-Turns into something that counters Infernape (and that probably doesn't know U-Turn as well) as you use Encore. Given that Infernape leads rarely carry Grass Knot, Swampert can really mess with you here if he's on the receiving end of U-Turn, since you don't know whether Surf or Earthquake is coming (although Togekiss is fine with taking Surf, to be honest). A more frightening instance is another Infernape that's maxed out on Speed. Fake Out followed by Close Combat will ruin your lead, since you'll get neither Stealth Rock nor Encore in. You can probably out-predict both of these situations, but you'll need some considerable luck to do it, and a wrong judgment will cost you. I'm just trying to warn you about relying on Stealth Rock damage; you can have a plan, but it may not always work.

Starkipraggy
12-04-2008, 01:19 AM
An opposing lead running Fake Out and other offensive moves can still run in circles around Encore, namely a Life Orb Ambipom that uses Fake Out to ruin the Focus Sash, and then U-Turns into something that counters Infernape (and that probably doesn't know U-Turn as well) as you use Encore. Given that Infernape leads rarely carry Grass Knot, Swampert can really mess with you here if he's on the receiving end of U-Turn, since you don't know whether Surf or Earthquake is coming (although Togekiss is fine with taking Surf, to be honest). A more frightening instance is another Infernape that's maxed out on Speed. Fake Out followed by Close Combat will ruin your lead, since you'll get neither Stealth Rock nor Encore in. You can probably out-predict both of these situations, but you'll need some considerable luck to do it, and a wrong judgment will cost you. I'm just trying to warn you about relying on Stealth Rock damage; you can have a plan, but it may not always work.
Yeah, that's true. :x Gengar can sponge Fake Out, and then Hypnosis to try to sleep something, but it won't work against Weavile. Problems, problems.

I'll just drop Starmie's Surf for Ice Beam I guess, since Gyarados is rampant too. Meh. I can't rely on Gengar to do much because his main aim is to explode and kill special walls. So no go for HP Ice/T-bolt on him.