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Shaolin1290
12-07-2008, 09:10 PM
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Viva la Gofre
12-07-2008, 11:27 PM
HP Ice over one of heatran's fire moves please, fire's usefulness is limited at the best of times in hail so you can't afford to be investing half a moveset in it. HP ice also stops dragonite and salamence from lol'ing at you, both of whom give your team a fair amount of trouble btw. Zapdos would help this problem somewhat, so I recommend that switch.

That froslass set really needs changing. First off, bright powder is banned under both the hax and evasion clauses. Next off swagger will give your opponents free boosts while you hope that they miss. Even on special attackers it only forces a switch, and they may be able to land a hit on you 40% of the time anyway. Lefties for item please, and ice beam or confuse ray (All the posetives of swagger, no negatives. It's a sucky excuse for a status move anyway) over swagger.

252HP/84SpAtt/96SpDef/76 Spd@Sassy on the yeti, with wood hammer and leech seed over ice shard and brick break. The idea of a mixed set is to bypass the counters of a special/physical one: This one hits bulky waters harder whilst surviving ice beams from CMCune and CM slowbro, outspeeds swampert and ensures a 2HKO on standard skarmory.

Grass Knot>>>Flamethrower on slowbro, your team has problems with bulky waters as it is.

fatshine179
12-08-2008, 03:32 AM
HP Ice over one of heatran's fire moves please, fire's usefulness is limited at the best of times in hail so you can't afford to be investing half a moveset in it. HP ice also stops dragonite and salamence from lol'ing at you, both of whom give your team a fair amount of trouble btw. Zapdos would help this problem somewhat, so I recommend that switch.

That froslass set really needs changing. First off, bright powder is banned under both the hax and evasion clauses. Next off swagger will give your opponents free boosts while you hope that they miss. Even on special attackers it only forces a switch, and they may be able to land a hit on you 40% of the time anyway. Lefties for item please, and ice beam or confuse ray (All the posetives of swagger, no negatives. It's a sucky excuse for a status move anyway) over swagger.

252HP/84SpAtt/96SpDef/76 Spd@Sassy on the yeti, with wood hammer and leech seed over ice shard and brick break. The idea of a mixed set is to bypass the counters of a special/physical one: This one hits bulky waters harder whilst surviving ice beams from CMCune and CM slowbro, outspeeds swampert and ensures a 2HKO on standard skarmory.

Grass Knot>>>Flamethrower on slowbro, your team has problems with bulky waters as it is.

He pretty much summed it up^^

Shaolin1290
12-10-2008, 01:44 AM
hmm... i gave heatran flamethrower in case i wanted to keep going after a fire boost, but i suppose i could drop overheat for dragon pulse for some dragon coverage

i don't quite get what you mean by salamence and dragonite weakness... half my team have ice moves. and two have ice shard.

I am also considering using celebi over zapdos because it is good at stopping gyara and breloom.

celebi@leftovers
252 HP, 252 SpD, defensive nature
Recover
Substitute
Leech Seed
B. Pass/attacking move

I love the idea of passing bulky subs, but i may grudgingly admit that an attacking move might be better....damn... how about grass knot for bulky waters? good suggestion btw.


i forgot to mention that i did already switch powder to lefties on froslass and i guess c.ray is better. I would use ice beam, but froslass is meant to be more of a staller and if he stalls a few turns and lays down 3 layers of spikes he will have already served his purpose.

-I have gotten all kinds of crap about the yeti, but here's my reasoning...
he's a starter and is meant to counter other starters that would usually wreck this team ie tyranitar and weaville. he is basicly my dummy and hail starter. i use him to protect scout, absorb sleeps, etc.

Ice shard is important. it helps kill a weaville that is focus sashed if it doesnt also pack it

find he is more useful offensively when you get those powerhouse starters (tyranitar, weavile, salemence, garchomp). many are 4x weak to either blizzard or fighting.
i know he is also a good subseeder, but somehow as a starter i dont think that he will ever even last that long with 7 weaknesses.-

flamethrower was originally intended to help slowbro with metagross, but i can see the usefulness of grass knot. however, wouldnt it be better to put it over surf? dont need both to cover rock types.

Shaolin1290
12-10-2008, 01:57 AM
so the new thing im looking at is what to replace surf with on slowbro:

moveset:
TW
Slack off
Grass knot
?

options:
psychic- STAB and takes care of fighting types that ice is weak to

drain punch/brick break- helps suprise and take care of dark type (mostly physical ones) switch ins and also does a bit of damage to steel and rock

-Holland-
12-10-2008, 05:41 AM
Don't mind my terseness, but all Gofre meant was that Heatran had no way of contending with Dragonite and Salamence, whom a Scarfed Heatran conveniently outspeeds (unless they're Scarfed, too). It would just be nice if he could utterly destroy them off the bat as opposed to switching to an Ice Shard user while Dragonite or Salamence may use Dragon Dance, and even while Ice Shard may get priority, Dragonite or Salamence (especially Dragonite) may survive the hit - thanks to a Yache Berry - and retaliate with a monstrous attack. With a Choice Scarf, Heatran shoots to kill, because if he doesn't, he can screw things up for his entire team.

As for Slowbro, he may get Belly Drum and he may have some really nice physical moves, but the Attack score that attempts to back them up kind of blows. No matter the circumstance, Surf is an excellent move on bulky Water types, because Water as a rule gets good coverage. Psychic doesn't help Slowbro much, aside from having this compelling need to kill Machamp at all costs. Stick with what you had; Thunder Wave is great fun, Slack Off for recovery, Surf for good STAB, and Grass Knot for troublemakers like Suicune. Slowbro doesn't really need Flamethrower since killing Steel types comes with Heatran's job description.

Viva la Gofre
12-10-2008, 06:06 PM
hmm... i gave heatran flamethrower in case i wanted to keep going after a fire boost, but i suppose i could drop overheat for dragon pulse for some dragon coverage

While its all well and good making use of flash fire, it shouldn't be done at the expense of coverage. HP Ice is necersarry over dragon pulse, since bulky DD variants are on the rise and a quad-strength HP Ice is more likely to KO

i don't quite get what you mean by salamence and dragonite weakness... half my team have ice moves. and two have ice shard.

That implies that your ice users can switch in, which they cannot. Both dragonite and salamence carry fire moves as standard, and against hail teams you can bet that fire moves will be used a lot. They will also predict a switch in from an ice user and attempt to catch you with a fire blast where you would not expect it.

I am also considering using celebi over zapdos because it is good at stopping gyara and breloom.

Celebi only adds to the afformentioned fire weakness, and gyara doesn't like quad-strength discharges off of zapdos either. Likewise froslass can absorb breloom's fight moves and heatran can switch into grass moves, while proceeding to outspeed and hit with a super-effective fire move. Abomasnow will also much on leech seeds for you.


I love the idea of passing bulky subs, but i may grudgingly admit that an attacking move might be better....damn... how about grass knot for bulky waters? good suggestion btw.

Just use it on slowbro, who can switch in on bulky waters easily.

i forgot to mention that i did already switch powder to lefties on froslass and i guess c.ray is better.

Fair enough.

I would use ice beam, but froslass is meant to be more of a staller and if he stalls a few turns and lays down 3 layers of spikes he will have already served his purpose.

As I mentioned above, confuse ray is too easily remedied to allow for effective stalling, so run this:

Froslass@Lefties
Timid
252SpAtt/252Spd/6HP
Ice Beam
Spikes
Thunder Wave
Substitute

Thunderwave is more beneficial than confuse ray in almost every scenario, CR does little more than achieve PHazing.

-I have gotten all kinds of crap about the yeti, but here's my reasoning...
he's a starter and is meant to counter other starters that would usually wreck this team ie tyranitar and weaville.

Abomasnow has no business staying in on either of those pokes, especially with that EV spread. By ensuring you underspeed TTar to set up weather, you allow him the outspeed and the ability to OHKO you with STAB stone edge- the CB variant will do 217% minimum. Likewise weavile will enjoy throwing STAB'd ice punches at you while abusing your own hail boost. So you've just lost your lead in the first turn, and in the case of tyranitar you've just lost your weather abuse and given him a free sandstream. Congrats.

he is basicly my dummy and hail starter. i use him to protect scout, absorb sleeps, etc.

He'll be dead before he does any of those things.

Ice shard is important. it helps kill a weaville that is focus sashed if it doesnt also pack it

Most weavile do nowadays, and you have mamoswine for the revenge kill because weavile's only gonna get you first.

find he is more useful offensively when you get those powerhouse starters (tyranitar, weavile, salemence, garchomp <<<Banned)). many are 4x weak to either blizzard or fighting.
i know he is also a good subseeder, but somehow as a starter i dont think that he will ever even last that long with 7 weaknesses.-

Exactly why you cannot afford to keep him in against such powerful pokes- thats a counter's job. As I mentioned before, by allowing the opposing team free reign with their own weather you are hindering yourself immediatly.

flamethrower was originally intended to help slowbro with metagross, but i can see the usefulness of grass knot.

Metagros isn't a fan of STAB'd surfs either...

however, wouldnt it be better to put it over surf? dont need both to cover rock types.

Grass knot isn't their for rock types, but for bulky waters that can switch into your many ice attacks all day long. Likewise water/grass offers the best combination of general coverage.


Comments in bold.

Shaolin1290
12-10-2008, 10:10 PM
I have gotten all kinds of crap about the yeti, but here's my reasoning...
he's a starter and is meant to counter other starters that would usually wreck this team ie tyranitar and weaville.

Abomasnow has no business staying in on either of those pokes, especially with that EV spread. By ensuring you underspeed TTar to set up weather, you allow him the outspeed and the ability to OHKO you with STAB stone edge- the CB variant will do 217% minimum. Likewise weavile will enjoy throwing STAB'd ice punches at you while abusing your own hail boost. So you've just lost your lead in the first turn, and in the case of tyranitar you've just lost your weather abuse and given him a free sandstream. Congrats.


Uh... CLEARLY you missed the item. There is no OHKO on a focus sashed lead. weavile and ttar will both get a serious hurting if not instant kill and then ice shard


Ice shard is important. it helps kill a weaville that is focus sashed if it doesnt also pack it

Most weavile do nowadays, and you have mamoswine for the revenge kill because weavile's only gonna get you first.


I use protect to scout if weavile has ice shard or not. If it brick breaks again, I will ice shard it. If it ice shards, I will switch to CS heatran, which double resists ice and is faster than weavile. Crisis averted. I have killed every weavile so far using this strategy.
By the time weavile switches back in (if it can), I most always have s.rock or spikes set up

I’m researching leech seed abomasnow as a lead. I’m not convinced, but so far my strategy hasn’t backfired, so I’m in no haste.

Viva la Gofre
12-10-2008, 10:53 PM
Uh... CLEARLY you missed the item. There is no OHKO on a focus sashed lead. weavile and ttar will both get a serious hurting if not instant kill and then ice shard

No I saw the item, and the arguament still stands that you've condemned your weather starter to death. Either they get you on the revenge kill or block you from switching back in due to lack of immunities and widespread entry hazards, thus leaving your team with no hail support should TTar/hippowdon (Both of whom rank in the top 50 most commonly used pokes in the OU metagame on shoddy) be on the opposing team. Abomasnow can be a pokemon of significant bulk when used correctly, assuming its weaknesses prevent it from doing so is a mistake.

I use protect to scout if weavile has ice shard or not. If it brick breaks again, I will ice shard it. If it ice shards, I will switch to CS heatran, which double resists ice and is faster than weavile. Crisis averted. I have killed every weavile so far using this strategy.
By the time weavile switches back in (if it can), I most always have s.rock or spikes set up

You're thinking of a far too specific set of leads- yes you can kinda counter weavile (Most weavile will presume you're going to switch and attempt to pursuit you, leaving you still not knowing if they are packing ice shard or not), but set-up leads like bronzong will laugh in your face as they wall your poke's lack of coverage and set up or prepare to pass whatever it is they do.

I’m researching leech seed abomasnow as a lead. I’m not convinced, but so far my strategy hasn’t backfired, so I’m in no haste.


Yeah...

Shaolin1290
12-10-2008, 11:09 PM
eh... ok. thank you. I'll figure it out and let you know

Shaolin1290
12-14-2008, 07:56 PM
i just killed 2 tyranitars and three weaviles yesterday with my abomasnow xD i think i'll be keeping it the way it is.

Shaolin1290
12-14-2008, 07:57 PM
oh, and i decided on restalking Cresselia with ice beam to be my breloom counter. idk how it will work, but so far Cress has helped me immensely with many other threats, so she's a keeper