Torment/Encore

[Loyal Arcanine]

During a recent WAR battle between Magare and Vellyvell, we came across the Torment/Encore tactic. I thought the affected pokemon would not attack at all as long as the Encore remained, but Velly proved me wrong. Let's put the facts straight first:

- As long as a pokemon which is affected by Torment doesn't switch, it can't use the same move twice in a row.
- A pokemon affected by Encore can only use the last move used, as long as the Encore lasts.

Example:

Turn 1

Alakazam uses Torment!

Gyarados uses Return!

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Next turn, Gyarados can't use Return.
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Turn 2

Alakazam uses Encore!

Gyarados can't use Earthquake after the Encore!

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Gyarados will now have to use Return.
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Turn 3

Alakazam uses Psychic!

Gyarados uses Return!

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Now, Gyarados can't use Return, and not anything else either.
I reffed this as Gyarados not attacking, but in fact, as proven by
NetBattle it uses Struggle. Imagine the Encore lasts.
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Turn 4

Alakazam uses Psychic!

Gyarados uses Struggle!

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So far so good. So when affected by Torment/Encore it is basically attack -- Struggle -- attack -- Struggle until Encore ends. Eventually we all three agreed on this.

The thing is, NetBattle does a strange thing the first turn that both Torment and Encore are in effect. If you turn to turn 2 of my example, the facts would say that Gyarados can't use Return. However, it appears that the first turn that Torment and Encore are both in effect, Encore overrules Torment. So the sequence would be: Attack -- Attack -- Struggle -- Attack -- Struggle.

Speed is important in this situation. If Gyarados would be quicker than Alakazam, it would not be able to use Return again on the second turn. Being slower it can, since Encore overrules Torment. And then there's the Struggle thing too. In fact, this is a complete different way of reffing this combo than has been done before.

NetBattle can contain bugs, of course, and even if it doesn't the URPG does not always follow the rules strictly. In my opinion, with Torment + Encore being pretty popular now, a clear way of reffing this in the URPG should be found.

[Tamer San]

Crobat or Electrod are the only Pokemon around this sick strategy Mike, and since there is a way against any strategy, even if it needed time and thinking plus dedication from the trainer to perform a perfect strategy i believe that there is no need to change its reffing way or battling way. Here is a simple Electrod Strategy:

Turn 1

Electrod uses Sonicboom (This is in case of a detect/protect, since Zam fears a faster mon with an OHKO ability on Zam)

Alakazam uses Torment (If he was smart or stupid) or Protect/Detect(If he wanted to avoid Explosion, and this is in Stadium Rules case since it is unpredictable what an Electrod could do yet)

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Next turn, Electrod can't use Sonicboom if Tormented
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Turn 2

Electrod uses Explosion

Alakazam is definatly OHKOed, unless risking with another Protect with half Acc. Or switching, causing death to another Pokemon in a 3v3 battle leaving Zam alone against what is left for the Electrod trainer, and the protect on turn 2 is the smart way here yet the lucky way)

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Anyway, my point is there is always a counter-strategy for ANY strategy in the world. Just think a little bit more as a trainer instead of changing the way things should be for your own or others personal comfort against Marth or Magare, whom are the only people I know using this strategy so far. These are my two cents, enjoy.

Oh, and I know I haven't showed any of you the Crobat counter-strategy for the Toment+Encore strategy, but it is so personal and private to me, classified, top-secret, exclusive, or whatever you want to call it, to me, so no one will get it until I am 100% sure it works. Beside, I learned it the hard way of course, beating Zam (Torment+Encore) isn't everything, Magare and Marth both have manystrong mons to support Zams and destroy you easily. I find this case useless somehow.

[Loyal Arcanine]

The point is not that the strategy is unbeatable. I myself have a third option to counter it. The thing is, it's just reffed the wrong way. It's not true, that you don't attack at all when affected, which is how it is reffed now. Perhaps you didn't read it all too carefully.

[JohtoTrainer]

Refs, just ref Torment/Encore as Struggle-Attack-Struggle...and so on.

[mlugia]

Ok, just came back from a talk to Masa (MasamuneXGP, he programs NB)

Mike, NB has it right.

Torment makes it so you can't choose the same attack over. However, Encore does not affect what attack you choose, only what attack is activated. In the first turn, since he chose Earthquake, he bypassed Torment right away. Encore turned Quake into Return. Following that, since Return MUST be chosen due to encore, struggle does ensue.

And yes, Masa did test this in game while programming NB. (and I forced him to retest too...)

[Tamer San]

The point is not that the strategy is unbeatable. I myself have a third option to counter it. The thing is, it's just reffed the wrong way. It's not true, that you don't attack at all when affected, which is how it is reffed now. Perhaps you didn't read it all too carefully.

I must have missread it, apologies to you Mike. On the other hand, JT is right, this is the correct way and this is how it should be reffed. Struggle-Attack-Struggle.

[mlugia]

Apparently Tamer you didn't read my post ._.

Struggle/Attack/Struggle should start on the third turn of Mike's example, exactly how NB worked it out. Encore and Torment don't affect the same thing. One affects the move you can choose, the other affects the move that is actually executed.

(Which is why under encore you'd choose Quake on the first time, get Encored, and end up using Return.)

[Loyal Arcanine]

Yes, Mana's right. Mind you, my example is not what happens. Gyarados moves should be:

Turn 1: Return.

Turn 2: Return, although it would have chosen something else because of Torment.

Turn 3: Struggle

Turn 4: Return

Turn 5: Struggle

So the sequence would be: Attack -- Attack -- Struggle -- Attack -- Struggle.

Struggle/Attack/Struggle should start on the third turn of Mike's example

Like that. It was actually all in Mana's first post.

[Matt]

Alakazam uses Torment!

Gyarados uses Return!

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Next turn, Gyarados can't use Return.
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Doesn't torment affect the move used before it? If Gyarados uses Return after Torment, Torment doesn't have any effect. (I could be wrong)

And I don't understand in the least what struggle-attack-struggle means.

[mlugia]

Torment is a move where after used, the opponent may not CHOOSE to use the same move twice in a row.

Encore FORCES the opponent to EXECUTE the same move repeatedly.

Basically, on the first turn, Gyarados is tormented.

Since Gyarados on the 2nd turn chose Earthquake instead of Return, Torment is not triggered. However, Encore overrode the Earthquake, forcing Gyarados to EXECUTE Return. This is different, since Encore did not force the user to CHOOSE to use Return that round.

However, in the third round, since Return was just used, Torment forces the user to choose something else. Since Encore locks the user in choosing Return, the user has no moves to make, thus the pokemon uses Struggle.

On round 4, since Struggle is not Return, the user may go back to using return.

Round 5, see round 3. etc.

[Magare]

Just one thing.

In the example Gyarados tried to use Earthquake, but after Encore used Return.

But what if Gyarados tried to use return again? Would Torment have its effect then? Even if that return was encored?

Example:

Turn 1: Torment
Return.

Turn 2: Encore - and at this moment Gyarados also tried Return.

So, what would Gyarados use here? Return or struggle?

[mlugia]

Gyarados cannot choose to use Return the second turn, because Torment does not allow it. Thus the switch to Earthquake. If Gyarados tries Return, the game says "But Torment does not allow the use of the move twice in a row" or a similar message, and you get to rechoose a move (kinda like how Choice band says "But choice band only allows the use of one move" when you try to use a different move)

On a quick but very important NOTE

Torment's selection restriction is also applicable to Metronome, Mirror Move, Sleep Talk, Assist, and Nature Power (or any other moves that changes to a different attack upon used if I missed one), where if I return you first turn, and get tormented, Metronome can still execute Return the next turn, since I didn't technically "choose" to use Return.

Thought you might like to know :)

[Marth]

*Claps*
Mana, all the questions have been answered, and I hope everyone understands how it works now. Thanks a lot, and credit to Vellyvel and Mike that did the test and brought this case. And Tamer, just for your information, a simple move like Taunt can prevent Encore/Torment. You don't have to use Electrode or Crobat.
*Locked*

[JohtoTrainer]

*Claps*
Mana, all the questions have been answered, and I hope everyone understands how it works now. Thanks a lot, and credit to Vellyvel and Mike that did the test and brought this case. And Tamer, just for your information, a simple move like Taunt can prevent Encore/Torment. You don't have to use Electrode or Crobat.
*Locked*

But, you do need a Pokemon that's faster then Zam that learns Taunt. Bat being one of them. :wink: