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Neptune's Disciple
07-07-2005, 10:37 AM
For all of you who don't know yet, there has been a suspected terrorist attack on the London underground and bus services just over 1 and a half hours ago. Six bombs exploded in central London, 5 on the undergound, and one on a bus. There have been two confirmed fatalities, and over 90 casualties. All transport in London has ground to a halt. Anyone with more information on this terrible attack just hours after London won the 2012 olympics, please, post it here. Our hearts all go out for our fellow PE2Kers and everyone else in England, and more specifically, London.

DarkMasterX
07-07-2005, 10:42 AM
Actually, there've been 3 bombs on busses, not just one. :sleepy:

My uncle works in London and since he can't get into work, he stays here all day, which sucks. :dazed:

Damn these Dirka Dirka losers and their bombs. Why can't the world just live in peace? :neutral:

Matthew
07-07-2005, 10:47 AM
What!?

Oh man... I feel really bad. I love England.... and such an attack on London is terrible.... I hope the fatalities don't increase.... and I hope the casualities stay low. I'll be sure to try and stay updated on this...

Neptune's Disciple
07-07-2005, 10:53 AM
What!?

Oh man... I feel really bad. I love England.... and such an attack on London is terrible.... I hope the fatalities don't increase.... and I hope the casualities stay low. I'll be sure to try and stay updated on this...

I have to agree on this, London is one of the most magnificent cities that I've ever been to, and is by far, my favourite. England is a beautiful country.

There were stories of people on the underground seeing bodies on the tracks when they tried to get out. This attack could not have happened at a worse time. Not only because of the olympics, but becuase of the G8 summit. The terrorist attack will further push back the growing issue of poverty and starvation in Africa.

Matthew
07-07-2005, 11:06 AM
Well said...

I'll be in London come next June... I hope no other attacks develop and prevent me from taking my trip... that would be a sad day :sad:

EDIT

And I just realized how selfish I sounded there.... sorry :oops: I also hope that it doesn't happen and destroy even more lives...

My sympathies to all! :neutral:

Pika57
07-07-2005, 11:26 AM
A.i got really cofused for a minute when i read this because of the way you said they were selected to host the 2012 olympics.

on what Dark Master said.They don't do it just to try and harm people. their trying to make a point. They don't think that there is any other exsisting ways to make points so they try to use violence to do it. And Before you ask what possible point could they be making, realize that there are thousands of possibilities, the main one being that they don't like democratic systems which most of the countries in th world currently have. Democracy is not perfect. Not everyone thinks its the best way to govern a country.

this is not Bull it is truth.

and don't say i support blowing stuff up. I don't . really

DaRkUmBrEoN
07-07-2005, 11:44 AM
What got me surprised is the amount of casualties. Only 2 deaths and 90 injured. As where in Madrid with only 2 bombs, there were a lot more.

Not that I like many casualties, but I think there are two possebilities.
1- Some are still excluded from aid, because somepart of the tube may have collapsed.
2- The injuries could be life-threating.

Maybe for the conspiracy-theory lovers:
3- The police and others are keeping the numbers low to speed up the aid, because if there were many casualties, people might interfere with the rescues.

Plus: there are now 7 bomb explosions confirmed.

Matt
07-07-2005, 12:35 PM
and don't say i support blowing stuff up. I don't . really

You're lucky you posted that.

I did hear about this. It's really upsetting, but being in America, and being one to not be greatly impacted by 9/11, I don't really care that much. We have murderers in our cities that are more fatal than those bombs, serial killers killing ten people, and nobody cares. :susp:

DaRkUmBrEoN
07-07-2005, 01:41 PM
We have murderers in our cities that are more fatal than those bombs, serial killers killing ten people, and nobody cares. :susp:

ok :oops: , that's sick.

Back to the attacks. It seems news channels are being weird. CNN now says that there are 3 tube and 1 bus explosion confirmed, while the BBC says 5 tube and 2 bus explosions.

The police will have press conference in about 30 minutes from now. They probably will announce an exact number of casualties.

Pika57
07-07-2005, 01:52 PM
1- Some are still excluded from aid, because somepart of the tube may have collapsed.

I turned on CNN to check it out. part of the tube did collapse

Pika57
07-07-2005, 02:09 PM
they have avideo cell phone footage from one of the cars. its low quality. Its hard to see. Its hard to see whats happening but it looks like most people ae stayimg in the car because of the posibility of the rails still holding an electric charge. this was on CNN

40 deaths as of now.
at least 100 injuries

Phoenix004
07-07-2005, 02:11 PM
This is why I rarely watch the news channels, it's too depressing. Everytime I watch it, some stupid terrorists have blown something up just to make a point. Doesn't anybody care about innocent lives? There really are some sick people in the world...

My deepest sympathies to those who live in London. I've been there a few times (I live about 6 hours away) and it's a nice place. I hope no PE2K Londoners have been badly effected by this terrible event.

Pika57
07-07-2005, 02:17 PM
thats the problem. terrorists don't understand that violence isn't the only way to make a point.

It says that the busses are being used as ambulances

DaRkUmBrEoN
07-07-2005, 02:34 PM
The goal of a terrorist is to strike fear in the hearts of his enemies. And the best way to do that is to attack them with bombs and the likes of that, so they become scared.

Pika57
07-07-2005, 02:40 PM
Right but why do you think they do that. fear isn't their purpose. Fear is also part of the way their trying to make their point

Sudo
07-07-2005, 04:39 PM
My dad traveled to London by train just yesterday for a meeting to do with his job, i cant imagine imagine if that meeting was posponed to the next day and he was caught up in the attack.

The death toll is around thirty and i feel deep sorrow for the loved ones of those who died. What a horrible event in the capitol of my country.

Miravana
07-07-2005, 05:07 PM
My thoughts are with the people being effected by this event.

I hope things improve in this situation.

TDD91
07-07-2005, 05:13 PM
Im one of the msot clueless people about whats happened today, I've been on a trip walking in the Yorkshire Moors. We only found out when Johnny's mum rang him up and told him. His uncle lives around the corner from one of the sites, so its not good.

Marill
07-07-2005, 05:16 PM
I'm frantically worried about every PE2K'er and citizen of London. I woke up, my mother told me, and I rushed to the computer to check on Raddstealth, Dani, Vex, Alex, Cat, and the others. To find out, not everyone mentioned actually lives in London, but I was still worried for them nonetheless. I hope everyone is okay. My hopes, prayers, and thoughts go out to everyone of you. May God bless you. I'm deeply sorry for this sort of thing ocurring.

Loyal Arcanine
07-07-2005, 05:18 PM
Well, I can inform you guys that at least Dap, who lives about an hour away from what happened, is safe. So a tiny bit of good news for us among this disaster.

Incongruity
07-07-2005, 05:32 PM
Wow

this sucks

hairy testicles



While I am pissed that New York did not get the 2012 Olympic Games, (Damn you Vancouver... *shakes fist*) that does not change the fact the incident in London is/was a tragedy.




But honestly, are those terrorists retarded? All a government needs in order to gain pro-war sentiment is to convince "them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger." Blowing up something in London because of what the British are doing in Iraq/Afghanistan (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/07/explosions.claim/index.html) is incredibly stupid. That's just going to get the Brits more pissed, and give the US/UK more support from the general public when people are starting to sick of the whole war thing.


Wait a second...

DaRkUmBrEoN
07-07-2005, 05:55 PM
While I was reading the last few posts, I remembered that I had relatives living in London. :oops:

I just realised if there could be something strange about the bombings. There were 911 days between 9/11 and Madrid. So I checked and found out that there were 482 days between Madrid and London. So there goes any proof for a conspiracy.

A reason why terrorist use attacks as a means to take revange. They also hope if they do it good enough, people will get scared and then vote for a less agressive government.

TDD91
07-07-2005, 06:02 PM
Actually, a thing bout this one is that there were 7 bombs on the 7th of the 7th. We seriously think its a consiracy =/ I was very worried myself actually, fearing they'd target a major train station, and I had to use one only an hour and a half ago.

ashkelon
07-07-2005, 06:07 PM
My heart aches for the people in London. I keep thinking back to the things I was feeling on 9-11. Relieved to hear that dap is OK.

Ah damn this is so sad.

Praying the British don't go all bigoted and stupid about everybody islamic or middle eastern like so many in the USA have.

Neptune's Disciple
07-07-2005, 09:55 PM
I'm sure Dani will be fine, as she lives about 8 miles from the centre of London (I know this because she lives close to my uncle). I doubt that she would have even been out of bed at 9am to catch the train into London, and even if she did, the line that runs from her area to the centre of London was not attacked, as far as I can tell. The injuries are somewhere in the hundreds, with the dead toll of 38.

double o G
07-07-2005, 10:25 PM
Hate to say it but I knew this was coming.Terrorists strike mostly when people do things to them.I have a feeling us the USA are next quite frankly Im scared.I live in chicago.One of the largest cities in the us.I dont think there gonna go to new york again so Im very scared.


Then again Terrorists can bring up stuff from years back.

Thousands of years ago christians tried to change Arabs religion.

But isnt it weird their attacking christian countries.(Not Fully but mostly)

IT
07-07-2005, 10:37 PM
Just heard this on the news, tragic. The news actually managed to get here, Finland, after all, is in the middle of nowhere...

EDIT: Damn, I just noticed that I missed my 1,000th post!

Genesis 1.0
07-08-2005, 12:04 AM
Hopefully this a wake up call to those doubting their position on the war and the poll results supporting the war will rise. This attack will surely tip the scales and give the administration the ammuniton it needs.

Incongruity
07-08-2005, 12:46 AM
Hopefully this a wake up call to those doubting their position on the war and the poll results supporting the war will rise. This attack will surely tip the scales and give the administration the ammuniton it needs.

Göring: "Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

Gilbert: "There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

Göring: "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."


-In an interview with Gilbert in Göring's jail cell during the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials (18 April 1946)






If the administration (of either nation) abuses the deaths of these innocent people, I'm sure many people will be disgusted.



Concerning the people who did this (last I saw, some Middle-East sympathizers in Europe claimed responsibility), well, they're gonna basically get owned.

However, you have to put yourself in the position of these terrorists. If your government convinced you with propaganda that the "enemy" was evil and heartless, you would be angry. If the extremist media convinced you that your enemy would attack symbols of your people (such as mosques) and in the process, kill innocent people, you would be infuriated. If you were blinded, you too would feel desire to attack that enemy.

Marill
07-08-2005, 02:57 PM
Well, has anyone heard from Dani yet, just to make certain she's okay? I pray that she is. I've been worried about her. This is a sad, sad ordeal.

Incongruity
07-08-2005, 04:20 PM
http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/forum/showpost.php?p=226075&postcount=168

I'm sure she's fine.


And praying won't help either. In order for her to be okay, she already must not have been hurt. However, by you praying, you are attempting to change the past, which has already been determined. Assuming that a divine entity of some sort could change the past, it means that the present has still already been determined. Either way, your praying would not change anything, as all that you pray for must have been pre-determined in order for such a "change" to occur.

For example, let's say I pray for Dani's safety. However, she has been injured by one of the explosions. She's already been hurt. In order for that to change, a divine entity must have gone back in time, and saved her from the bomb. But this reveals the uselessness of praying, for if the past were changed, already in my time, Dani would have been okay (BEFORE the prayer took place).


basically, nothing would have "changed," because the original timeline (where Dani supposedly got hurt) never would have happened.

Pika57
07-08-2005, 04:31 PM
what if the past is decided by the actions of others in the future

double o G
07-08-2005, 07:54 PM
Ok lets not spam, guys.

jaffa_G
07-08-2005, 09:07 PM
death toll risen to 90+ as workmen and rescuers now get into a collapsed tube. and i think over 200 casualty's, i was reading a post off a guy and it said he didnt care it wasnt as bad as 9/11, well england did and it was all over the news for atleast week maybe more, and this is like the worst that has ever happened in england so its a big deal for us, and now you've got all the muslims saying "people am going to think it as us, and o we am going to get punished for something we didnt do," someone blamed it on bush for starting it on iraq, well sorry muslim guy, it was iraq who started it on usa on 9/11

22sa
07-08-2005, 10:43 PM
I don't quite understand how an attack that caused less then 100 fatalities also injured 700....

Sad event, the terriorists have too much power.

In our city, we emptied the subway because some mysterious powder was unindenfied there, and they suspect it might be a terrorist weapon. =/

Ace
07-08-2005, 10:47 PM
death toll risen to 90+ as wokmen a rescuers now get into a collapsed tube. and i think oner 200 casualy's, i was reading a post off and it said he didnt care it wasnt as bad as 9/11, well englad did and it was all over the news for atleast week maybe more, and this is like the wost that has ever happened in england so its a big deal for us, and now you've got all the muslims saying o we am going to get punished for something we didnt do, and people am going to think it as us, someone blamed it on ush for starting it on iraq, well sorry muslim guy, it was iraq who started it on usa on 9/11

Well, no offense, but that comment was quite ignorant. You cannot blame all Muslims in general for holding us responsible for the Iraqi Campaign, for it was, partially, our fault. Yes, some of the lesser-minded, immoral ones of that group are apart of terrorist organizations such as Al Queda, but not all of them share the same beliefs as those inconsiderate, barbaric extremists. After 9/11, we did respond by deploying troops to Afghanistan, and successfully liberated it from the Taliban, and did manage to do a moderate deal of damage to Al Queda, but we did not stop there. Some information – intel we can now dub inaccurate – led us to believe that WMDs were stored in Iraq. There was not much to back that up, however, but we still had come to send troops. We did manage to liberate the nation and overthrow and capture Sadam, but where are the WMDs? We may have expanded Democracy but that is all and that is not what we came to do. We did not find anything, and overall, we did not manage to ‘disarm’ the terrorists physically, despite the major Al Queda leaders captured and killed, for their attacks continue to come, and our troops – my sister who is in service about to be included (she is actually going to be shipped to Iraq next month) – are forced to defend against cowardly terrorist car bombings from radicals that use the most gutless tactics. Even still, although a minority of Muslims is apart of Al Queda, we cannot blame all Muslims. Despite the appalling, truly barbaric actions of 9/11, Madrid, England and elsewhere, we must not be blind from identifying the true enemy – not all Muslims – but the cowards who hide behind their pusillanimous car and strap bombs – all terrorists – not even just Al Queda. They want us to try and put pressure on entire peoples as a scapegoat to have their support grow within the masses, which cannot happen.

Anyway, back to topic – that would belong somewhere in Other Discussion.

Yes, the bombings on Britain were indeed unjust and disgusting. For the injured and the dead, my thoughts are with them. I have relatives in England, so I am quite fearful for them. Indeed the actions were hateful.

Jack of Clovers
07-09-2005, 02:33 AM
*moves to other discussion*

my Tv woke me up and it starts with the morning news, so I watched as it happened (an hour later) but I fell asleep...

I do remember, sometime between 911 and before the bombing of London, that some terrorist group declared anyone that supports America will be attacked. I figured it was only time and here it is. Sad as it is, this makes the terrorists even more the badguy and more reason for the governments to fight back even harder.
you wonder why the middle east mostly is against America. they aren't democracies over there and our Politicians wanted to help change governments to something we like (and can trade easily with). basically, as we always do, put our nose where our business shouldn't be. and by We I am talking about the American Government and foreign affairs. pretty much, if we hadn't involved ourself where we weren't wanted, we would have all these terrorists attacking us. (they'd be attacking each other). The middle east has had wars for centuries, I don't believe anything the world does will solve it.

as far as the bombing in London, I thought a more probably target would be Royalty, or Big Ben, or maybe the bridge (can't think of the name). But watching the news, I learned how London relies heavily on the subways and maybe that was an ideal target. So it doesn't kill/injure many, many people, but it stops daily movement. also, here in California, LA subways (not as big) doubled in security. and as 22sa said about the powder, FEAR has spread about where it will happen next. doubtful that subways will be attacked... has to be something not guarded heavily but meaningful to the location.
but the basic scene will happen, just like after 911. an increase in nationalism and a small increase in favor of the war. Countries don't like being attacked (even if they started it). it's all about maintaining pride.

~Jack~

masterryanx
07-09-2005, 03:51 AM
UPDATE....
Death Toll: About 50
Injuries: Over 700
WOW! I feel sorry for all the people who lost family members and those who are injured, this is really sad. :sad:

DaRkUmBrEoN
07-09-2005, 07:45 AM
death toll risen to 90+ as wokmen a rescuers now get into a collapsed tube. and i think oner 200 casualy's, i was reading a post off and it said he didnt care it wasnt as bad as 9/11, well englad did and it was all over the news for atleast week maybe more, and this is like the wost that has ever happened in england so its a big deal for us, and now you've got all the muslims saying o we am going to get punished for something we didnt do, and people am going to think it as us, someone blamed it on ush for starting it on iraq, well sorry muslim guy, it was iraq who started it on usa on 9/11

I'm a muslim and as a mather of fact one of the high educated ones.
Is it me or is one of the first things we learn from our parents and teacher to not stick your nose in other people business. When a country meddles with affairs they aren't concerned with, they ask for trouble. I don't mean attacks, but some kind of political warning.
The reason that the US meddles with middle east affairs is oil. The US drives it's industry on oil from the middle east. If that line was closed, the US economy would collapse. So Mr. Bush and many of the politicians would't want that, since the industry is their baseground.
Democracy isn't the best way to govern a country, but it's the best we have. And since trades are easier between democracies, it would be easier to make the middle east democratic. So we now see the actions made to do that, we only needed an excuse for Iraq. Afghanistan is partialy could agree with. Plus, the US are trying to fix the Isreal-Palestin conflict. I am not saying there efforts are bad, but maybe misplaced.

And to add something, terrorist blow up stuff to flame up hatred between people. If we prosecute muslims, like Jaffa_G is doing in a lightly form - through words -, muslims will think they are discriminated, hated and not wanted. So actions of discrimination make terrorists think they have succeeded, cause people will search for an answer and terrorist will provide it.

The only way to make a usefull attack against terror is to do it together. Not to do it against a religion, but against the people who abuse it as a reason for their acts.

jaffa_G
07-09-2005, 09:29 AM
I'm a muslim and as a mather of fact one of the high educated ones.
Is it me or is one of the first things we learn from our parents and teacher to not stick your nose in other people business. When a country meddles with affairs they aren't concerned with, they ask for trouble. I don't mean attacks, but some kind of political warning.
The reason that the US meddles with middle east affairs is oil. The US drives it's industry on oil from the middle east. If that line was closed, the US economy would collapse. So Mr. Bush and many of the politicians would't want that, since the industry is their baseground.
Democracy isn't the best way to govern a country, but it's the best we have. And since trades are easier between democracies, it would be easier to make the middle east democratic. So we now see the actions made to do that, we only needed an excuse for Iraq. Afghanistan is partialy could agree with. Plus, the US are trying to fix the Isreal-Palestin conflict. I am not saying there efforts are bad, but maybe misplaced.

And to add something, terrorist blow up stuff to flame up hatred between people. If we prosecute muslims, like Jaffa_G is doing in a lightly form - through words -, muslims will think they are discriminated, hated and not wanted. So actions of discrimination make terrorists think they have succeeded, cause people will search for an answer and terrorist will provide it.

The only way to make a usefull attack against terror is to do it together. Not to do it against a religion, but against the people who abuse it as a reason for their acts.

o i ay blaming it on muslims, i was just saying that the muslims think that people think it is them and the am going to get punished for it, but they aint, people dont care anymore, people in london and in england know that they have to carry on they cant be scared, because what will the country be like, and the death toll is over 100 not 50, like somebody said and 700+, o god, i dont hate muslims god, i hug one every day and bloody went out with one! and im only 13 so... anyways back to topic, to the people in london, we know what happened but theres nothing we can do about it, so all you can do now is get on with your life.

miyoun
07-09-2005, 02:29 PM
I found of of the London bombing a couple of minutes after it happened. Since up here in Scotland, we are already on Summer Hols, I can get on the internet more.

It was all over Yahoo! News and everything. And what got me worried was all my friends in London. And my best friends uncle. (Megans uncle is famous btw. =OOO)

I was glad to hear all where alright, but one hasn't been found. So I have a missing friend in London. And her phone is either, in pieces, or not on.

Actualy, once I foudn out of the London bombing, I became depressed. I feel ashame for all the people that died.

Incongruity
07-09-2005, 02:31 PM
jaffa: you're doing :surp::neutral::surp::neutral: You need to do :silenced:


DarkUmbreon: As sad as it may seem, our actions in the Middle East are necessary purely for the oil. If our nations are persuaded by our extremist liberals and don't take the oil, we WILL collapse.


Do you know why? the U.S. (along with every other nation) is dependent on oil. Most obviously, we need it as gasoline to power motorized vehicles We need it for agriculture (petrochemical fertilizers & what do you think does most of the work on farms? Machines! What do machines need... oil) We need it for electricity (Sure, we have natural gas and coal, but cheap oil is our major source). Also, hydrogen fuel would not work either, because hydrogen is an energy carrier, not an energy source. We also need it for plastics of all sorts (what did you think plastic was?). If we ran out of petroleum, we'd just collapse. Hey, I don't know about you, but I don't want to collapse. The rest of the world shouldn't either. Do you know what happens in a collapsed nation ridden with poverty and famine? Combine that with a ridiculous arsenal of warheads. Yea... See "Fall of the USSR" for case study.


Basically, we need to resort to imperialism, or we're going to fall. If we fall, it's going to be the fall of a superpower, which clearly leads to bad stuff. Peak oil production's going to be reached soon. We're going to need to control the oil after then.


Yeah, sounds heartless, but what are you gonna do.

StarGirl
07-09-2005, 03:08 PM
What's to discuss here? What was the pont in moving this? I mean, I doubt we have many fans of terrorism on these forums. Are you all just going to politely agree with each other in this thread? Since when did that constitute a discussion?

Incongruity
07-09-2005, 04:44 PM
No, we can argue on several things

-Terrorists attacked because we attacked (well, I guess that's half-right)
-but even though Iraq was illegitimate based on all international laws and moral grounds, and poorly carried out, and a failure of a war, we need the oil there for the reasons I stated above.
-Soon as the monstrosity known as Blairush starts blurting out 9/11 and now London, we can criticize their abuse of not one, but two tragedies.

In fact, try this drinking game. While watching C-SPAN (On Demand, obvoiusly) take a shot every time someone mentions "9/11", "September 11", or any other variations. It dwindled down a bit, but I'm sure it'll fire up after this incident.

Take two shots every time someone not from New York mentions it.

Take three for every time someone not from New York mentions 9/11, in conjunction with the London incident, juxtaposed with a Hitler reference.



Brits can play the same game only replace C-SPAN with whatever it is you watch, and replace 9/11 with whatever the media decides to call what happened in London.

DaRkUmBrEoN
07-09-2005, 05:46 PM
@ssk1911: I'm not saying that the US should be excluded from oil, they shouldn't be so eager to get it. If they are eager, the price would rise, since there is a high demand and an average supply.

But if the US would collapse, The Netherlands would also be in big trouble. If I believed what the news is telling me Bush and our PM Balkenende are big buddies :susp: . The Netherlands is in its being a transport country. It moves cargo from one country to another and collects fee. The US provides us around 20% of its transport to ship in the mainland of Europe.

@StarGirl: We can discuss, as an example, the actions which are needed in our opinions, even if we aren't world leaders, since that is the beaty of democracy.
Discussions don't mainly have to be people eventually agreeing with each other through convincing statements. They can be opinion forming, so can you go in a discussion with or without an opinion and leave with one completely different from some one else.

Pika57
07-09-2005, 06:36 PM
the grounds on which our president founded this war were created in order for us to gain contro lof vast quantaties of oil. when the troops first took control of Bahgdad, wanna know what they gaurded? Oil. its all about oil. Meanwhile our incompetent president is tricking a little over half our nation into beleiving his actions are justified.

Incongruity
07-09-2005, 06:46 PM
Pika: ....


The necessity for oil IS enough justification.

-electricity
-motor vehicles (anything with a motor, really)
-plastic
-agriculture
-some medicines


No oil, no modern society.

With our ineffective bureacracy filled with environmentalists, we won't be able to use nuclear power, either, which would fill up two roles that oil takes up. (electricity, and that can be put into hydrogen to power motor vehicles)


until we do something though, we need all the oil we can get. It's plenty enough justification for war.

Ace
07-09-2005, 11:27 PM
the grounds on which our president founded this war were created in order for us to gain contro lof vast quantaties of oil. when the troops first took control of Bahgdad, wanna know what they gaurded? Oil. its all about oil. Meanwhile our incompetent president is tricking a little over half our nation into beleiving his actions are justified.

I must agree with ssk1911 on this issue.

Seriously, it would be quite ignorant to say that we are in Iraq just for the oil, yet it would also be ignorant to say that we are in Iraq only to restore justice.

First things first, we NEED oil. There is absolutely no other, better alternative. Just because we are taking advantage of the situation in Iraq and putting to use the oil derricks and wells, does not mean that is the only reason we are there. Seriously, look at oil prices right now, and imagine what would happen without the assets in Iraq. Our economy would indeed collapse, and we would be taxed out so outrageously, this nation, government, and our way of life as you know it will fail. Oil contributes as a fuel, it is a source of electricity, and a source of heating. Before you know it, we’ll have to be using horse drawn carriages and not even have fuel rations just because some extremist organization would try to take advantage of our lack of oil. As immoral as it sounds, we absolutely need oil in order to maintain economical stability, and it is somewhat justified that we used sources of oil in Iraq as we advanced.

Meanwhile our incompetent president is tricking a little over half our nation into beleiving his actions are justified.

Our president may have his flaws, but he is not incompetent. Although there may be a few follies that occurred during his presidency, he did pull us through a hard time.

I mean seriously, 9/11 was the first deliberate attack on our soil by a foreign movement since Pearl Harbor, our president deserves at least some props for getting us through that trying time. Although some of us try to accuse him for ignoring some early signs of an attack, just think back. If you were asked before 9/11, “What would you do if America was suddenly, deliberately attacked on its own soil?” you would likely respond:

“Attack?! Hah! We haven’t been attacked since Pearl Harbor, and that was by a great imperial power. Last time I checked, there isn’t a power that can stoop up to America.”

President Bush is looked at meekly just because of negative statistics that were mostly brought by the effects of the 9/11 attack. If you really think about it, Bush has done at least a modest job as president, especially having been the only president to face a major attack or conflict on our soil aside from George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Franklin Roosevelt. The last person to face this was FDR, and he faced it around 60 years ago.

Now a little on to the future. Our first campaign was held in Afghanistan, which was a nation under a group called the Taliban who hosted terrorists on their soil. The campaign there was and still is quite successful.
Iraq, however, is the most controversial conflict. Although it is now liberated of Saddam Hussein, Al Queda and other extremist organizations still use cowardly, barbaric car bomb tactics to deal a blow to our troops. Because this has been going on since even after Iraq was liberated, many people are now becoming skeptical, and others are trying to focus our motives for our Iraq campaign solely on one subject, when there was much more to look at.

Before 9/11, an attack was deemed impossible. It had occurred, anyway.

There was speculation of WMDs in Iraq, if you were the president, and you just came out of a horrific event such as 9/11, how would you react? Of course, much of you would go into means to search and disarm for those weapons if any. You resort to weapons inspectors. Saddam, however, restricts them from many major sites. As president, and after all of this, you would more than certainly launch a campaign in suspicion, as we had.

Now, a campaign in Iraq has pros and cons.

Pros:
- Discovering and disarming enemy WMDs if any.
- Promoting the ideals of Democracy and overthrowing a leader responsible for ruthless, unjustified genocide bombings.
- Weakening the grip of Al Queda and other extremists in the middle east.
- Oil supplements that can aid America’s reserves, which are beginning to go low, hence the gas price rise.

Cons:
- You expose yourself to range of the extremists attacks.
- Casualties, of course.
- A moderate to high expenditure in order to arm and launch a successful campaign.

Pros in Avoiding War:
All that was presented in cons, avoided.

Cons in Avoiding War:
- You ignore the possibility of WMDs, and if there were any to be used in the future, there would be a high cost.
- You prove yourself as a ‘coward’ to some middle easterners, allowing Al Queda’s support to grow.
- You allow Al Queda to have a land to operate in, since Iraq, under the circumstances it was during Saddam’s authority, was really rather ignorant of that matter.
- Iraq no longer allowed oil to be exported from it before our campaign - that would mean gas prices would be MUCH higher than they are now.

Having that written, now you understand that the campaign in Iraq was for MORE than oil.

Overall, my opinions of our campaign in Iraq are quite mixed. My sister’s opinion is too, but despite that fact, she still gives the greatest sacrifice of life in general in order to support America, as she is to ship to Iraq next month.

Genesis 1.0
07-10-2005, 02:00 AM
I think Sk put it best, not with the elaborate explantion but with the ending statement: "Yeah, sounds heartless, but what are you gonna do." That's the bottom line people, Empires are never pretty when you get down to it, and like it or not, that's what the U.S. is, just substitute 'largest Superpower' for 'Empire'.

Seeing that's established, Empires always have many connections, many holds on many nations, so if that power falls, they all fall in a domino effect. The U.S. has grown so large that we don't have the time to barter or pay the set price for oil, the end all to fossil fuel, we need it at demmand on our terms. Contrary to popular belief, it takes a very clever leader that's willing to put it all on the line and take action, not to mention use the propoganda machine to perfection in order to get not only it's country but others as well to get involved, and the Bush administration is just that.

They've been edging towards war for decades now, but never will the right motivation or the right leader to push it to where it needed to be, the combination of Bush and 9/11 changed all that, it fueled the rage and raised the support needed to launch this campaign to keep this Empire on it's feet. This London bombing, a retaliation from terrorist forces for what they see as interference, will serve as just another catalyst when support WAS waning. As far as the whining from those who've been dancing that same jig 'America sticking it's nose where it dosen't belong', they'd be singing a different tune were we to remain within the parameters of other nations without our power, fact of the matter is that there will always been those with something to compain about. There is no Empire in history that didn't 'stick it's nose where it didn't belong', that's why they're called Empires. When you have that much power, why wouldn't you use it to gain more power? It's human nature, from the smallest scale of children stealing candy from another to the War in Iraq.

It sounds heartless, but what are you gonna do?

Incongruity
07-10-2005, 03:30 AM
Yes, too often the "We went to war for oil" statement is used as a criticism, when it is actually a justification.

I hate Bush as much as the next guy. I hate being evil. However, we have to do it. America has been this way from the start. Do you think Americans originally occupied the land we inhabit?



I'll be disgusted at the inevitable abuse of these deaths as fuel, but the majority of the people need propaganda. It's like imaginary friends, fairy tales, and myths as a child. One needs to be told what to do. The hope is that eventually one can become independent, but the majority of people retain this necessity as an adult, in some form or another.

I just hope this is enough to enrage the extremist liberals who are criticizing use of oil.



If we finally condone the policy "to the winner goes the spoils", the United States will be far more stable; oil is power. Some liberals are alright, but most are quite retarded in one way or another. I mean, we need to dig in Alaska, we need to take oil in the Middle East. Either that, or let us use nuclear power.

TDD91
07-10-2005, 04:20 AM
Theres been a bomb scare in Birmingham now. =/ Cat was actually there when it happened, but shes okay. They locked out the city centre and made 4 controlled explosions on a bus.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/homepage/int/ne/nhdr/h1/t/-/news/1/hi/england/4668313.stm

DaRkUmBrEoN
07-10-2005, 01:16 PM
Talk about having luck. :wink:

@Genesis: Didn't history teach us the reason why Empires fall. Because Empires always fall. It's because they don't know when to quit. The reason is they keep having their nose in affairs so much they don't remember what to do in their own country. Take the ancient Romans, From Wikipedia.

According to Edward Gibbon, the Roman Empire succumbed to barbarian invasions because of a loss of civic virtue among its citizens. They had become lazy and soft, outsourcing their duties to defend their Empire to barbarian mercenaries. The ranks of barbarian armies became so thick and ingrained that they were able to easily overtake the Empire. Romans, Gibbon says, had become effeminate and were unwilling to live the military lifestyle.

Note: by barbaric is ment: one who isn't a roman citizen


One way to interpret this is saying they went lazy and forgot that they can't trust others with their own safety.
But the reason why they became lazy is that they were busy meddling with affairs that weren't theirs and left their affairs to someone else.

The Chinese Empires: Taken from Wikipedia
By the 1860s, the Qing dynasty had put down the rebellions at enormous cost and loss of life. Further, the suppression of the rebellions was achieved chiefly by armies commanded or advised by western leaders -- thus undermining the credibility of the Qing regime -- and by local initiatives spearheaded by provincial leaders and gentry, that decentralized authority within the Empire and helped contribute to the rise of warlordism in China. The Qing dynasty then proceeded to deal with problem of modernization, through the Self-Strengthening Movement. However, the Empress Dowager, with the help of conservatives, initiated a military coup, effectively removed the young Emperor from power, and overturned most of the more radical reforms. Official corruption, cynicism, and imperial family quarrels made most of the military reforms useless. Some of China's new battleships didn't even have gunpowder, because the officials in charge had embezzled the maintenance money, and a huge amount of the capital had been spent to construct Yiheyuan. As a result, the Qing's "New Armies" were soundly defeated in the Sino-French War (1883-1885) and the Sino-Japanese War (1894-1895).

Why could the Chinese take on their Mongul invaders. Because the people weren't thinking about other countries, but their own.
This time the empire fell because of the meddling from other countries, with the aid of a child as Emperor.

I know making a country not interfere is hard nowadays, but there is a limit to interference.

@ssk1911: I know the America wasn't inhabited originally by what now are called Americans. The proof is in your last names. Franklin Roosevelt was from origin a Dutch Man. The Al Pacino is Italian. Hence almost every American in the 1900 came from Europe or Asia, except the Indians.

And am I missing something. "To the winner goes the spoil?" Wasn't Iraq not propagandized as a war of democracy vs tirany or as a war against terrorisme. The only spoil that comes to mind then has to be peace in the homeland and "Iraq for its people". Where in this war was said that the oil would go to America. America was just aiding the surpressed people of Iraq. If The US took the Iraqi oil for it's own it would be stealing and isn't that a big no-no. So the only 2 ways for the US to get oil is to buy it or to get it as a gift.

Genesis 1.0
07-10-2005, 11:05 PM
Umbreon, if you truly believe that last bit, then I do not envy your naive nature. The U.S. has been stealing, pillaging, & ransacking resources for a long time now, not everything goes along with the books, in fact, very little. The propaganda is a cover to gain support, not the true motive and trust me, you'll never hear about the true spoils on the 8 'o' clock news, I can tell you that.

As far as your Empire Cut-and-Paste rebuttal, every Empire falls because nothing stands forever, even staying within your own domain everything eventually crumbles. With the prosperity of an Empire comes growth, with growth comes a greater need, and with a greater need comes the demmand for the fulfillment of those needs. Eventually, you'll either reach beyond your borders for what you need or your Empire will shrivel and die from the inside.

DaRkUmBrEoN
07-10-2005, 11:23 PM
The last bit actually was an attempt on sarcasme.
And yes, people consider me naive because they think I'm too young to understand anything since I tend to be in the youngest and the most immature in my class. But my naivety isn't from being young, it's from relevating everything arround me.

Since every argument I sent in to the ring, has been slammed back into my face, it seems my arguments aren't that strong.

What makes me wonder now is how this topic became a discussion instead of a place to show sympathy...

Sky Girl
07-13-2005, 02:30 PM
the grounds on which our president founded this war were created in order for us to gain contro lof vast quantaties of oil. when the troops first took control of Bahgdad, wanna know what they gaurded? Oil. its all about oil. Meanwhile our incompetent president is tricking a little over half our nation into beleiving his actions are justified.
Hooray! Pika57 you rock! and Dark Umbreon, you rock too for sticking up for all those misunderstood Muslims.

Does anyone know how Katera is, i think he lives in london? i know he's not dead because he PMed me yesterday.

and please, no one get into politics with me, because i will scream my head off :evil: :dazed: . which is not good for someone with strep throat. i may be young but i know a lot about politics. i also prefer to not discuss politics or religion with friends because it can destroy friendships.

AlakazamTrainer
07-13-2005, 02:45 PM
Why do people automatically have to blame it on the people in Afganistan?i have had like 3 people talking about it say "The people in Afganistan did it" why dothey ASSUME that they did it?None of this wouldeven be happening if BUSH would just stay in the US he is the president of the united states right? Not Afganistan the US should just let them be let them go on with their life.They are have Car explosions and all that just because they are getting mad why should bush control what theydo we do things the way we want and they do things the way they want Just leave them alone bushHow do they know that it was not another country they don't and bush just wants a reason to go BACK in to Afganistan.

I am sorry if this offends anyone

Incongruity
07-13-2005, 03:05 PM
lmao


Afghanistan was justified. Do you know why? We dismantled a set geographic base of Al Qaeda. We destroyed their terrorist training camps, we FOUND AL QAEDA THERE. They were basically "renting" Afghanistan from the Taliban for about 20 mil a year. Do you know why we went in? There was a little thing known as... Oh.. how do I put this... SENDING PLANES INTO OUR BUILDINGS AND KILLING THOUSANDS.

Iraq, on the other hand, was to get oil. Yes, we publicized it in the beginning as a limb of the war on Afghanistan (in that both were associated with terrorism; which is not true, because only Afghanistan was related with terrorism), and then we said WMD's (which was also not true). However, this was just a method of propaganda. Obviously the extremist liberals would not want us to go to war for oil, but then they would eat, use cars, use electricity. We NEED OIL. The only crime Bush commited in going into Iraq was lying; he claimed we were spreading democracy, or fighting terrorism. We went in for oil, but that does not make the war any less justified. We have alternative energy sources, but we're obviously not using them, and petroleum still dominates in areas other than energy, so...


So to all of you extremist liberal pre-pubescent toddlers who are pompous enough to believe they are far more intelligent than anyone else their age OR older: learn the facts, use elementary English skills, and try not to take our niche by making a fool out of yourself without our help.

AlakazamTrainer: Afghanistan harbored terrorists. This is beyond dispute.

SkyGirl: If you can't process your thoughts in a coherent manner (as in, without screaming), you are being immature while demonstrating a lack of knowledge. You're obviously an extremist liberal; just like the extremist conservatives, it seems you do not know how to speak well. Only instead of creating false words, awkward silences, or repetitive statements, you scream.

DarkUmbreon: Genesis basically said everything. Everybody (other than those of fascist disposition) knows that Iraq was not the war it was made out to be. But we all know that if propaganda did not portray it as such, only the intelligent would have supported the war (the intelligent being those who know of the necessity for oil).



Basically, the nations we're attacking are just like our own. There is a powerful minority full of religious fundamentalists that are jingoistic, hateful, and fanatical. However, the majority of the people are naive. There is a small population that is intelligent and opposes what the government does wrong, and supports what the government does right. Then there's a corrupt version of that intelligent population that just wants to put the government in the opposite extreme.

In America, we have the neo-conservative government, and in Iraq we have Saddam's dictatorship.

In America we have Christian zealots, and in Iraq we have Muslim fundamentalists.

In America we have the generally ignorant population that will blindly support whatever they are told to support, and in Iraq there is the same thing.

In America we have moderates and liberal moderates, and in Iraq there are those who opposed Saddam.

In America those who opposed the government were arrested (see: Republican National Convention), and in Iraq they are killed.

In America we have the corrupted people who oppose the government, in this case the extremist liberals, and in Iraq there are undoubtedly people who want to simply transfer power instead of distributing it.



So yes, there are innocents, but just as in America, there are few.

Sky Girl
07-13-2005, 03:28 PM
lmao



SkyGirl: If you can't process your thoughts in a coherent manner (as in, without screaming), you are being immature while demonstrating a lack of knowledge. You're obviously an extremist liberal; just like the extremist conservatives, it seems you do not know how to speak well. Only instead of creating false words, awkward silences, or repetitive statements, you scream.


I did not mean it in that way. But sometimes people's ignorance ticks me off really bad. Screaming my head off was just an expression. No I'm not an extremist liberal but I stand firmly in my beliefs and morals. End of disscusion please.
*wondering why the world can't just get along* <-do not comment on

Incongruity
07-13-2005, 04:06 PM
I did not mean it in that way. But sometimes people's ignorance ticks me off really bad. Screaming my head off was just an expression. No I'm not an extremist liberal but I stand firmly in my beliefs and morals. End of disscusion please.
*wondering why the world can't just get along* <-do not comment onIt seems you are incapable of making a point. You state things, and assume they are correct; notably, you do not back up anything you say with reason, logic, or even straight facts.

If you automatically assume that everyone who disagrees with you is ignorant, you are being worse than ignorant. To have an illusion of knowledge is worse than to be ignorant.

And by saying "stand firmly in my beliefs and morals," you automatically proclaim yourself as an extremist who is stubborn and unwiling to change.


"End of discussion please" <- lmao. You're obviously afraid of "losing" a discussion or something along those lines. A discussion is to share ideas, support your own ideas, and listen to others' ideas. It seems that you "stand firmly" but are subconsciously insecure about your level of accuracy that you cannot have a discussion; therefore, you chose to "end" it. Please, this is a proclamation of "I am wrong."

And what is "do not comment" supposed to mean? If you didn't want any commentary, you shouldn't have written it. Perhaps it's not the world that's not getting along. Perhaps it's not others that are ignorant. Maybe it's you? No wait, I forgot. Judging by your actions, your dominant belief must be that you are correct, but anyone that might disagree with you is wrong.


Show that you yourself are not ignorant; by simply "ending" the discussion, you admit the truth of everything else you have not responded to.

Sky Girl
07-13-2005, 04:41 PM
Did I say that everyone who disagrees with me is ignorant? No I did not. I am not afraid of losing a discussion or arguement, I merely do not want to make anyone mad or step on anyone's toes. And if you have anything else to say you may PM me. Good day!

Incongruity
07-13-2005, 04:57 PM
Did I say that everyone who disagrees with me is ignorant? No I did not. I am not afraid of losing a discussion or arguement, I merely do not want to make anyone mad or step on anyone's toes. And if you have anything else to say you may PM me. Good day!Weak argument but not unexpected based on your previous actions. And I may PM you, but I may also just post it.

One cannot ignore that which you imply. "Please do not get into politics," "I stand firmly," "People's ignorance ticks me off." Based on these quotes, one can justly assume that when one disagrees with you in politics, a subject in which you are firm in your beliefs, you become ticked at people's ignorance. However, because they disagree with you, in your own extremist manner you label them as ignorant.


And nobody would be made mad; if anything, we are amused at your condescending superiority complex. While at times annoying, its more entertaining than anything. Unlike extremists, some are able to determine their own beliefs while being open-minded to other beliefs.


If anything, it seems that you would be made angry, as you are "ticked at people's ignorance." HMM! If others were to get mad (as you appear to assume they will), then, one can only assume they would be "ticked" at your ignorance.

Sky Girl
07-13-2005, 05:20 PM
Where I come from (a little redneck town in the middle of nowhere) most people are not very educated. I on the other hand make sure I know what I'm talking about before I say it. They refuse to even listen to the things I say (they have never listened). This is ignorance. And you are really starting to just be plain annoying and I think your doing it on purpose. So I will no longer look at this thread because you will probaly have another pointless arguement just for the sake of argueing. I on the other hand will be mature and step down so there is no need for you to reply. This will also save both of our hands from the work of typing.

*Wondering in my head "does this guy ever shutup"*

Incongruity
07-13-2005, 05:47 PM
Where I come from (a little redneck town in the middle of nowhere) most people are not very educated. I on the other hand make sure I know what I'm talking about before I say it. They refuse to even listen to the things I say (they have never listened). This is ignorance. And you are really starting to just be plain annoying and I think your doing it on purpose. So I will no longer look at this thread because you will probaly have another pointless arguement just for the sake of argueing. I on the other hand will be mature and step down so there is no need for you to reply. This will also save both of our hands from the work of typing.

*Wondering in my head "does this guy ever shutup"*I applaud you. Not for being "more mature" as you said, but for saving me the work of making a fool out of you.

"will be more mature"

"*Wondering in my head "does this guy ever shutup"*"

Immediately after you say you will end, you make an unnecessary comment.



Please, continue your superiority complex and pretend to yourself that you can read my thoughts. And continue to amuse yourself by thinking that you are mature. Does that make you proud of yourself and repair your broken feelings that sprout from I-hate-the-world teenage angst?

DaRkUmBrEoN
07-13-2005, 09:21 PM
I'm getting the impression that this might be getting out of hand...

For the sake of that, please stop.
Before someone tells you two of or closes this topic.

In America we have the generally ignorant population that will blindly support whatever they are told to support, and in Iraq there is the same thing.
A feature of a dictatorship is that it's held with force....
Just to point out a mistake.

AlakazamTrainer
07-13-2005, 10:14 PM
Okay yeah they did crash airplanes into the Twin Tower and the Pentagon and do yu think that the us is any better by staying over there NO! we have noright over there. And even today if you see a guy witha turban what happens to him he is blamed for something he did not do just because of his Heritage that is RACISM and that is not right.Saddam Hussain is in Custody so what are we still doing over there well did you see those pictures of those military people and the prisoners from Afganistan.We have no bussiness over there, Bush is just being nosey he doesnot even know how to run the government.And greed is another reason the us is still over there cause the us thinks it needs alot of oil.Look at china for instance do you see them doing the things that the us does.For one the us uses so much food and there is only like 500,000 people in the us and in china there is almost 2 million they do not take things for granite they are happy with what they got the us just thinks it needs all this oil and wants to control every other government and that is going to be the cause for the next World War.So Bush should just get all of the military back to the us cause would these people that are dieing recently be dead if the us just would of left when they caught Saddam.You think we NEED OIL do you SEE CHINA going and invading other peoples countries no they are not GREEDY.unlike others. :susp: lmao


Afghanistan was justified. Do you know why? We dismantled a set geographic base of Al Qaeda. We destroyed their terrorist training camps, we FOUND AL QAEDA THERE. They were basically "renting" Afghanistan from the Taliban for about 20 mil a year. Do you know why we went in? There was a little thing known as... Oh.. how do I put this... SENDING PLANES INTO OUR BUILDINGS AND KILLING THOUSANDS.

Iraq, on the other hand, was to get oil. Yes, we publicized it in the beginning as a limb of the war on Afghanistan (in that both were associated with terrorism; which is not true, because only Afghanistan was related with terrorism), and then we said WMD's (which was also not true). However, this was just a method of propaganda. Obviously the extremist liberals would not want us to go to war for oil, but then they would eat, use cars, use electricity. We NEED OIL. The only crime Bush commited in going into Iraq was lying; he claimed we were spreading democracy, or fighting terrorism. We went in for oil, but that does not make the war any less justified. We have alternative energy sources, but we're obviously not using them, and petroleum still dominates in areas other than energy, so...


So to all of you extremist liberal pre-pubescent toddlers who are pompous enough to believe they are far more intelligent than anyone else their age OR older: learn the facts, use elementary English skills, and try not to take our niche by making a fool out of yourself without our help.

AlakazamTrainer: Afghanistan harbored terrorists. This is beyond dispute.

SkyGirl: If you can't process your thoughts in a coherent manner (as in, without screaming), you are being immature while demonstrating a lack of knowledge. You're obviously an extremist liberal; just like the extremist conservatives, it seems you do not know how to speak well. Only instead of creating false words, awkward silences, or repetitive statements, you scream.

DarkUmbreon: Genesis basically said everything. Everybody (other than those of fascist disposition) knows that Iraq was not the war it was made out to be. But we all know that if propaganda did not portray it as such, only the intelligent would have supported the war (the intelligent being those who know of the necessity for oil).



Basically, the nations we're attacking are just like our own. There is a powerful minority full of religious fundamentalists that are jingoistic, hateful, and fanatical. However, the majority of the people are naive. There is a small population that is intelligent and opposes what the government does wrong, and supports what the government does right. Then there's a corrupt version of that intelligent population that just wants to put the government in the opposite extreme.

In America, we have the neo-conservative government, and in Iraq we have Saddam's dictatorship.

In America we have Christian zealots, and in Iraq we have Muslim fundamentalists.

In America we have the generally ignorant population that will blindly support whatever they are told to support, and in Iraq there is the same thing.

In America we have moderates and liberal moderates, and in Iraq there are those who opposed Saddam.

In America those who opposed the government were arrested (see: Republican National Convention), and in Iraq they are killed.

In America we have the corrupted people who oppose the government, in this case the extremist liberals, and in Iraq there are undoubtedly people who want to simply transfer power instead of distributing it.



So yes, there are innocents, but just as in America, there are few.

DaRkUmBrEoN
07-13-2005, 10:26 PM
Ehm, one point of advice: Please use interpunction, makes the post more readible.

As for the "facts" you mentioned:
The US has a lot more than half a million people and China has nearly 800 times as much as you mentioned, around 1.6 billion.

There is a "slight" difference between The US and China in political system. Say, like the one is a democracy and the other a semi-communisme.

Plus the reason China doesn't need as much oil as the US, is because China is still growing. It hasn't conquered the oil market yet. But once the demand is way higher than the offer, you bet something will change.

AlakazamTrainer
07-14-2005, 05:25 AM
okay but do you think that it is a good idea that people are dieing for meaningless reasons? Bush needs to stay in the us he is the president, he does not know what to do when heis president neither does that other guy who ran against how either of them got the chance torun for president or is president is beyond me :rolleyes:

DaRkUmBrEoN
07-14-2005, 09:24 AM
Well you have a point there, but did you know what to do when you went, let's take a slightly wrong comparisation, to kindergarten. No, you didn't, because you can't say what the future holds. So you shouldn't think presidents are some holy men who can do just that.

Ok, let's take the hypothetical situation, where you are living in the US and Saddam did had WMD and he was ticked of about something related to the US. Do you think he would have bombed the US while sending a warning in advance. To quote from Home Alone 2: "I don't think so."

Every thinkinh human being would have first checked if there were WMD. The only wrong thing mr. Bush did was to lie. Well he is human and powerfull...

Well if you sign up for the army, well you should have known the risks. They don't draft people any more in the US, do they?

And about those "meaningless" reasons, maybe they are meaningless to you. But to others they are a way of life. Not that I agree with most of them...

Daniella Defines Divinity
07-14-2005, 08:00 PM
Aww Chad worried about me, I'm fine, I was in Bristol at the time so I was far away fro it, although my ssiter works in Liverpool street and her building is roughly abouve where one of the bombs went off. However she needs to be at work by 7am so she missed all of it Thank god, I was so worried about her. Mobile phones in the area were completely jammed up so I couldn't get any messages through, got me really scared for a while. I was calling all my friends to make sure they were ok all day.

Anyway since no one had mentioned the official stuff

4 bombs: 3 underground, 1 bus
Death toll: 53 (still expected to rise)
Injured: 700

I was glued to the news all of that thursday, they were showing snippets of american broadcasts when the news hit your shores and the one thing that got me was the fact that they were making it sound like some kind of movie. There is definately a big difference between newscasting here and in the US.

Most of the underground is up and running, although quite a lot are only partial service and there are transport police everywhere. To be honest I was quite nervous getting the underground back home today, I was eyeing up people and bags with caution, it's just so close to home for me.

The 2 minute silence today was incredible everywhere came to a complete standstill, cars, people and even all the TV channels came to a complete stop displaying a message about the bombings. However the bombings have brought everyone in the city much closer together, theres this huge sense of community spirit around, everyone is watching everyone elses backs and it's made us all united, however cheesy that sounds

Ace
07-14-2005, 08:20 PM
Okay yeah they did crash airplanes into the Twin Tower and the Pentagon and do yu think that the us is any better by staying over there NO! we have noright over there. And even today if you see a guy witha turban what happens to him he is blamed for something he did not do just because of his Heritage that is RACISM and that is not right.Saddam Hussain is in Custody so what are we still doing over there well did you see those pictures of those military people and the prisoners from Afganistan.We have no bussiness over there, Bush is just being nosey he doesnot even know how to run the government.And greed is another reason the us is still over there cause the us thinks it needs alot of oil.Look at china for instance do you see them doing the things that the us does.For one the us uses so much food and there is only like 500,000 people in the us and in china there is almost 2 million they do not take things for granite they are happy with what they got the us just thinks it needs all this oil and wants to control every other government and that is going to be the cause for the next World War.So Bush should just get all of the military back to the us cause would these people that are dieing recently be dead if the us just would of left when they caught Saddam.You think we NEED OIL do you SEE CHINA going and invading other peoples countries no they are not GREEDY.unlike others. :susp:

Yes, we NEED OIL.

You think we NEED OIL do you SEE CHINA going and invading other peoples countries no they are not GREEDY.unlike others.

It is not that they are 'not greedy unlike the others’ as you claim, as to these estimates:

Oil Consumption Per Day:

China: 4.57 Million Barrels Per Day < U.S: 21.93 Million Barrels Per Day

Statistically, the Chinese require the oil much less than the United States, and that is why you don’t see them invading other nations. Also according to statistics, the United States and China have a nearly equivalent amount of oil barrels on reserve, it is merely the fact that we NEED to consume more oil per day that has gives us a NEED to invade other nations.

You may be asking why China has a larger population and area than us and still not consume as much oil as we do. That is because, simply, the Chinese is partially communist, and that means, their general population progresses at a slower rate than the general population of our capitalist representative democracy, the United States. In addition to the fact that we consume more oil, is the fact that our vehicle production is much, much higher that the Chinese is, currently. Although China is advancing toward our level in a very quick rate, they will not reach a similar or equal standpoint of vehicle production compared to the U.S. until 2030.

Even MORE evidence supporting my statement is the fact that as of 2003, China’s population is STILL 61% rural. Their definition of rural in China, is well basically, peasantry. Since most of that 61% of rural China includes peasants, they do not have as much ‘advantages’ as most of us Americans do. I do not think that much of the 61% of rural China require a large amount electricity for television and computers, as they do not have the luxury for any; same with my thinking that the same 61% does not, in my opinion, need as much gas to fill up cars, as they have not the luxury, unfortunately, for a vehicle, as most of the villages of rural China operate on itself, with its own, local markets.

On the other hand, in the United States, a large fraction of our middle class has a car, computer, and television. Therefore we’ll need a large amount of oil for gas and electricity, enough said.

And even today if you see a guy witha turban what happens to him he is blamed for something he did not do just because of his Heritage that is RACISM and that is not right.

Even though hate crimes do occur in America, the many of us, the sane, are still very respectful. More of us than you think are aware this is not a war against Muslims; this is a war against Al Queda. In Iraq, there are Muslim children being buried by their parents. Why? Because of a suicide bomber of Al Queda who wanted to take advantage. You know what they were taking advantage of? Our American troops were handing out candy to them? Honestly, they are doing damage to their own people more than hate crimes are going on in America. Yes there is the lesser of us who do come to be racist, but that is simply not enough to put against the United States for being entirely prejudiced. We still have a justice system that works to jail the hate criminals, remember that, and it still works correctly, in the most part, and as long as that system remains morally correct, than you have no fight about the nation in general being racist.

Saddam Hussain is in Custody so what are we still doing over there

Simple, we’re making sure that not another Saddam Hussein tries to take over. What do you think, one man is the sole reason of all our problems?! We still have extremists out there attempting to topple the new, nearly democratic Iraqi government, and its well-being is why we’re still there. Seriously, you think after capturing Saddam we can simply leave and expect the new government to hold out by itself? The setting up of a new government isn’t a swift road. Look at the Revolutionary War, just because we signed the Declaration of Independence did not mean that the war was over, we still had to secure the message that the thirteen colonies was now a united nation – just the same as just because we have Saddam does not mean that war is over either, we still need to secure the message to Al Queda and other Iraqi rebels that the nation is now democratic, and until the actual Iraqi population can come to organize and the government stabilize, we’ll remain there to make sure another dictator does not comes along at such a sensitive period for the new Iraqi government.

okay but do you think that it is a good idea that people are dieing for meaningless reasons? Bush needs to stay in the us he is the president, he does not know what to do when heis president neither does that other guy who ran against how either of them got the chance torun for president or is president is beyond me

As Dark Umbreon said, you may find those reasons meaningless, but to him, many others, and me, it is quite simply for our way of life and also in the long term, THEIR way of life.

Yes some Iraqis may remain ignorant and think that we’re only making it worse, but what is there to say to those that Saddam had inconsiderately use genocide on? What is there to say to the poor children that had never seen candy in their life besides that one time where our own soldiers had been handing it out to them, and then have the meaningful moment shattered by a foolish terrorist bomber?

Really, this war seems to be fought for many reasons. To us it is our simple need for oil, to the Iraqis and once was our fear for Saddam and his regime of having nuclear weapons (which was later on proved untrue), and to the Iraqis who were liberated it is simply emancipation, and maybe opportunities that they never had been able to have before they were freed.

Aww Chad worried about me, I'm fine, I was in Bristol at the time so I was far away fro it, although my ssiter works in Liverpool street and her building is roughly abouve where one of the bombs went off. However she needs to be at work by 7am so she missed all of it Thank god, I was so worried about her. Mobile phones in the area were completely jammed up so I couldn't get any messages through, got me really scared for a while. I was calling all my friends to make sure they were ok all day.

Anyway since no one had mentioned the official stuff

4 bombs: 3 underground, 1 bus
Death toll: 53 (still expected to rise)
Injured: 700

I was glued to the news all of that thursday, they were showing snippets of american broadcasts when the news hit your shores and the one thing that got me was the fact that they were making it sound like some kind of movie. There is definately a big difference between newscasting here and in the US.

Most of the underground is up and running, although quite a lot are only partial service and there are transport police everywhere. To be honest I was quite nervous getting the underground back home today, I was eyeing up people and bags with caution, it's just so close to home for me.

The 2 minute silence today was incredible everywhere came to a complete standstill, cars, people and even all the TV channels came to a complete stop displaying a message about the bombings. However the bombings have brought everyone in the city much closer together, theres this huge sense of community spirit around, everyone is watching everyone elses backs and it's made us all united, however cheesy that sounds

Ah, Daniella, it is nice to see that you’re fine, although that still does not change the extent of such a cowardly attack on your nation. Indeed, I wish only the best for you, your sister, and your friends for the future and what I wish more is that you, your family, and friends will no longer have to witness such a horrific event, as no human should.

I shall now wrap up my post with a powerful quote.

“I dream of giving birth to a child who will ask, ‘Mother, what was war’?" ~Eve Merriam

AlakazamTrainer
07-15-2005, 07:27 AM
Yes, we NEED OIL.
NO YOU THINK WE NEED OIL WE DO NEED SOME OIL NOT ALL THE OIL, OIL IS FROM THE EARTH SO IT IS EVERYONES OIL NOT JUST ONE NATIONS



It is not that they are 'not greedy unlike the others’ as you claim, as to these estimates:

Oil Consumption Per Day:

China: 4.57 Million Barrels Per Day < U.S: 21.93 Million Barrels Per Day

Statistically, the Chinese require the oil much less than the United States, and that is why you don’t see them invading other nations. Also according to statistics, the United States and China have a nearly equivalent amount of oil barrels on reserve, it is merely the fact that we NEED to consume more oil per day that has gives us a NEED to invade other nations.

YEAH THAT SHOWS YOU RIGHT THERE THE BIGGEST POPULATION OF PEOPLE ON ONE CONTINENT USES LESS OIL AND NATURAL RESOUCES THEN THE UNITED STATES WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU RIGHT THERE WE GET MORE THEN WE NEED

You may be asking why China has a larger population and area than us and still not consume as much oil as we do. That is because, simply, the Chinese is partially communist, and that means, their general population progresses at a slower rate than the general population of our capitalist representative democracy, the United States. In addition to the fact that we consume more oil, is the fact that our vehicle production is much, much higher that the Chinese is, currently. Although China is advancing toward our level in a very quick rate, they will not reach a similar or equal standpoint of vehicle production compared to the U.S. until 2030.

WELL SOMETIMES SLOWER IS BETTER.YEAH SO WE ARE POLLUTING THE THE ATMOSPHERE A WHOLE LOT MORE THEN CAUSE OF VEHICLE PRODUCTION SO WHAT WE ARE GETTING THE HYBRID CARS BUT WE ARE USEING MORE THEN WE NEED.THE CHINESE DON'T TAKE THE THINGS THEY HAVE FO GRANITE.THEY ARE GRATEFUL FOR EVERYTHING THEY GET.

Even MORE evidence supporting my statement is the fact that as of 2003, China’s population is STILL 61% rural. Their definition of rural in China, is well basically, peasantry. Since most of that 61% of rural China includes peasants, they do not have as much ‘advantages’ as most of us Americans do. I do not think that much of the 61% of rural China require a large amount electricity for television and computers, as they do not have the luxury for any; same with my thinking that the same 61% does not, in my opinion, need as much gas to fill up cars, as they have not the luxury, unfortunately, for a vehicle, as most of the villages of rural China operate on itself, with its own, local markets.

YEAH SO THEY MIGHT WISH THAT THEY HAVE SOME OF THE ADVANTAGES YOU AMERICANS HAVE. WHEN THEY REALIZE THE CONSIQUENCES DO YOUTHINK THEY MIGHT THINK TWICE ABOUT BUYING ANOTHER CAR OR USEING UP ELECTRICTY ON TV IS THAT REALLY A NECESSITY DO YOU NEED IT TO SURVIVE NO DOES IT BENIFIT YOU IN ANY WAY BESIDES COLLECTING DUST AND WASTING YOUR LIFE?

On the other hand, in the United States, a large fraction of our middle class has a car, computer, and television. Therefore we’ll need a large amount of oil for gas and electricity, enough said.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH TAKING THE BUS TO WORK/SCHOOL DO YOU THINK THAT HELPS THE ECOSYSTEM MORE BY TAKEING ONE CAR INSTEAD OF 20 YES IT IS ONLY ONE MOTORVEHICLE.BUT HOW MUCH ELESTRICITY IS BEING WASTED BYHAVE A A COMPUTER AND TV ON ALOT WHEN IT CAN BE USED FOR SOMETHING LIKE HELPING SOMEONE LIVE IN A HOSPITAL



Even though hate crimes do occur in America, the many of us, the sane, are still very respectful. More of us than you think are aware this is not a war against Muslims; this is a war against Al Queda. In Iraq, there are Muslim children being buried by their parents. Why? Because of a suicide bomber of Al Queda who wanted to take advantage. You know what they were taking advantage of? Our American troops were handing out candy to them? Honestly, they are doing damage to their own people more than hate crimes are going on in America. Yes there is the lesser of us who do come to be racist, but that is simply not enough to put against the United States for being entirely prejudiced. We still have a justice system that works to jail the hate criminals, remember that, and it still works correctly, in the most part, and as long as that system remains morally correct, than you have no fight about the nation in general being racist.

WOULD THERE BE SUICIDE BOMBERS IF THE US WOULD JUST STAY WERE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO STAY INSTEAD OF GOING SOMEWHERE JUST FOR MORE MONEY SO THEY CAN USE IT FOR STUPID THINGS.HOW MANY STAVING KIDS ARE IN THE US? DOES THE GOVERNMENT GIVE THEM A HOME?FOOD?CLOTHES?NO THEY JUST WANT TO PUT THEM IN A HOME SO THEY CAN GET OFF THE STREETS BUT ARE THEY TREATED ANY BETTER THERE THEN IN THE STREETS AT LEAST IN THE STREETS YOU CAN LEARN A FEW THINGS BUT IN A HOME WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO DO?



Simple, we’re making sure that not another Saddam Hussein tries to take over. What do you think, one man is the sole reason of all our problems?! We still have extremists out there attempting to topple the new, nearly democratic Iraqi government, and its well-being is why we’re still there. Seriously, you think after capturing Saddam we can simply leave and expect the new government to hold out by itself? The setting up of a new government isn’t a swift road. Look at the Revolutionary War, just because we signed the Declaration of Independence did not mean that the war was over, we still had to secure the message that the thirteen colonies was now a united nation – just the same as just because we have Saddam does not mean that war is over either, we still need to secure the message to Al Queda and other Iraqi rebels that the nation is now democratic, and until the actual Iraqi population can come to organize and the government stabilize, we’ll remain there to make sure another dictator does not comes along at such a sensitive period for the new Iraqi government.

WELL I THINK THE IRAQI PEOPLE ARE GETTING TIRED OF THE US GOING AND MESSING WITH THINGS.YES I UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE WORLD TRAIT CENTER ANDTHE PENTAGON ABOUT BEING BOMBED AND ALL YEAH THE USHADA RIGHT TO BEOVER THERE AND THEY CAUGHT THE GUY THAT CAUSED THAT, BUT NO THAT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH THEY HAVE TO GO AND STAY THERE AND EXCEPT THE USTO BEBEHIND THEM 100% WELL I AM NOT SURE VERY MANY PEOPLE AGREE WITH THIS DECISION. THERE SONS,DAUGHTERS,WIVES,HUSBANDS AND FAMILY ARE DIEING AND THEY COULD STILL BE HERE TODAY IF BUSH WOULD OF LEFT WHEN HE WAS SUPPOSED TO NO HE GOT GREEDY AND WANTED OIL.WHATS NEXT WHAT ELSE IS HE GONNA GET GREEDY FOR?

THE US CITIZENS ARE PAYING JUST SO BUSH CAN SEND PEOPLE OVER TO AFGANISTAN. IF HE WANTS OIL WHY DOESN'T HE GO GET IT HIMSELF INSTEAD OF USEING THE MILITARY FOR HIS GREED?

Ace
07-15-2005, 08:05 PM
Alright, first of all, you really need to drop the caps, dude. That only shows you are unable to carry a formal conversation without getting a little off.

NO YOU THINK WE NEED OIL WE DO NEED SOME OIL NOT ALL THE OIL, OIL IS FROM THE EARTH SO IT IS EVERYONES OIL NOT JUST ONE NATIONS

YEAH THAT SHOWS YOU RIGHT THERE THE BIGGEST POPULATION OF PEOPLE ON ONE CONTINENT USES LESS OIL AND NATURAL RESOUCES THEN THE UNITED STATES WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU RIGHT THERE WE GET MORE THEN WE NEED

Hello?! Did you listen to at all what I had said after that? Despite China having the largest population, much of that population is forced to extreme lows such as peasantry. Here in America, at least those who earn minimum wage earn it in non-dangerous jobs, such as jobs behind the counter. As I said everyone in our nation has shelter, a car, and a job. In much of China one can only have the clothes on their back and a farm earning just enough to live. You want us to use less? Try living in China’s deprived rural areas, and you’ll see what America would have to come to in using less.

WELL SOMETIMES SLOWER IS BETTER.YEAH SO WE ARE POLLUTING THE THE ATMOSPHERE A WHOLE LOT MORE THEN CAUSE OF VEHICLE PRODUCTION SO WHAT WE ARE GETTING THE HYBRID CARS BUT WE ARE USEING MORE THEN WE NEED.THE CHINESE DON'T TAKE THE THINGS THEY HAVE FO GRANITE.THEY ARE GRATEFUL FOR EVERYTHING THEY GET.

Meh, taking the standpoint of the environmentalist will not work, especially online – that just defeats your cause as a whole.

First of all, there is only a small amount of hybrid cars that have been released. Plus, whatever of the hybrids that are out, they are much more expensive than other of our modern cars.

Secondly, we are NOT using more than we need. The less oil we have at this current moment, the much more expensive gas prices will rise. You want you or your family to have to buy car gas for $7.00 a gallon?

YEAH SO THEY MIGHT WISH THAT THEY HAVE SOME OF THE ADVANTAGES YOU AMERICANS HAVE. WHEN THEY REALIZE THE CONSIQUENCES DO YOUTHINK THEY MIGHT THINK TWICE ABOUT BUYING ANOTHER CAR

What consequences? There are people literally starving out there. The only reasons why us Americans have education and jobs is because our economy and government are able to support it! How will our economy remain stable? If we have as much oil as possible. Without oil, nothing will be able to work. Machines in factories that run on electricity cannot be run, depriving people of jobs. Computers and telephones will not be able to work, continuing to deprive people of jobs. There would be no need for power plants, only further doing damage to the job market. Soon most Americans will be out of work, only leading us to a fate similar to that of those living in third-world countries.

OR USEING UP ELECTRICTY ON TV IS THAT REALLY A NECESSITY DO YOU NEED IT TO SURVIVE NO DOES IT BENIFIT YOU IN ANY WAY BESIDES COLLECTING DUST AND WASTING YOUR LIFE?

Alright, now that statement is quite, honestly, hypocritical. By typing that you yourself are wasting electricity, electricity that is likely produced by OIL. Also by typing in the first place, you’re ‘collecting dust’ and ‘wasting your life’. If you really want to get support for your cause, a start would be to try depriving yourself of computer, TV, telephone, and other electrical devices, and then try to successfully promote that among your friends.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH TAKING THE BUS TO WORK/SCHOOL DO YOU THINK THAT HELPS THE ECOSYSTEM MORE BY TAKEING ONE CAR INSTEAD OF 20 YES IT IS ONLY ONE MOTORVEHICLE.BUT HOW MUCH ELESTRICITY IS BEING WASTED BYHAVE A A COMPUTER AND TV ON ALOT WHEN IT CAN BE USED FOR SOMETHING LIKE HELPING SOMEONE LIVE IN A HOSPITAL

Once again, you’re being a hypocrite here. Saying we’re wasting electricity using the computer will not spread a message unless you actually do not use the computer at all, which is, obviously, not happening since you just typed that up. Using public transportation isn’t going to help, either, since the bus, too, needs gas. Since buses also need gas, not having a sufficient amount of oil will skyrocket bus fares toward outrageous highs. How would you like having to ride a bus for $5.00 a trip?

WOULD THERE BE SUICIDE BOMBERS IF THE US WOULD JUST STAY WERE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO STAY INSTEAD OF GOING SOMEWHERE JUST FOR MORE MONEY SO THEY CAN USE IT FOR STUPID THINGS.

Hey, look at 9/11. Where was America? Minding its own business, is where! Still, despite this fact, cowards hijack commercial airlines and cause 3,000 deaths and the destruction of the World Trade Center, part of the Pentagon, and a Pennsylvanian field.

HOW MANY STAVING KIDS ARE IN THE US? DOES THE GOVERNMENT GIVE THEM A HOME?FOOD?CLOTHES?NO THEY JUST WANT TO PUT THEM IN A HOME SO THEY CAN GET OFF THE STREETS BUT ARE THEY TREATED ANY BETTER THERE THEN IN THE STREETS AT LEAST IN THE STREETS YOU CAN LEARN A FEW THINGS BUT IN A HOME WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO DO?

I am sorry but what the hell?! What point are you trying to get out here? What ‘few things’ do you learn in the streets at all? The reason why children are in the streets in the first place is because they don’t have a choice. That is not because of the government; that is just because either one or both of their parents or guardians fail to support them. Even still, the government DOES try to help by setting up shelters and orphanages for those children deprived of caring parents or parents in general. In the end, it would be either the child or both parents who would take the blame. Our government can’t simply cater to everyone; it’s just not possible.

WELL I THINK THE IRAQI PEOPLE ARE GETTING TIRED OF THE US GOING AND MESSING WITH THINGS.YES I UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE WORLD TRAIT CENTER ANDTHE PENTAGON ABOUT BEING BOMBED AND ALL YEAH THE USHADA RIGHT TO BEOVER THERE AND THEY CAUGHT THE GUY THAT CAUSED THAT, BUT NO THAT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH THEY HAVE TO GO AND STAY THERE AND EXCEPT THE USTO BEBEHIND THEM 100% WELL I AM NOT SURE VERY MANY PEOPLE AGREE WITH THIS DECISION. THERE SONS,DAUGHTERS,WIVES,HUSBANDS AND FAMILY ARE DIEING AND THEY COULD STILL BE HERE TODAY IF BUSH WOULD OF LEFT WHEN HE WAS SUPPOSED TO NO HE GOT GREEDY AND WANTED OIL.WHATS NEXT WHAT ELSE IS HE GONNA GET GREEDY FOR?

Once again, you might want to improve your sentence structure, as it is very hard to get the point of what you’re trying to say.

The Iraqi people aren’t tired of us, Al Queda is. That’s why we have terrorist car bombings going on, Al Queda wants us to leave. If we do leave the nation, we’ll just let Iraq get occupied by the terrorists, and when they then try building nuclear weapons there, we’ll have to storm back right in. Now honestly, to have to invade Iraq twice because of an extremist faction would just be plain dumb, am I correct?

Plus, we DID NOT capture the guy truely responsible of the WTC and Pentagon attacks (Osama Bin Laden), we only captured someone capable of such extremist actions, Saddam Hussein. If you want proof of such actions that he actually committed, once again, look at his decision to use genocide on unarmed civilians just to test it.

Before you speak, get your thoughts and sources together. Also, being a hypocrite badly damages your fight, so don’t say things that you obviously don’t have proof of supporting, especially the bit saying about how using the computer wastes electricity and life when you yourself had been using it to speak your thoughts.

DaRkUmBrEoN
07-15-2005, 09:18 PM
Ehm. This is just to correct somethings.

Here in America, at least those who earn minimum wage earn it in non-dangerous jobs, such as jobs behind the counter. As I said everyone in our nation has shelter, a car, and a job.
Ehm, not everyone has those things. Let's take partnerless, working mothers in areas with huge concentration of minorities. They have a job and a home, but they can hardly support their children. So they don't own a car.

Using public transportation isn’t going to help, either, since the bus, too, needs gas.
Well, AlakazamTrainer has a point. Carpooling and using public transportation reduce the amount of gas needed and the amount of carbondioxide produces.
Where was America? Minding its own business, is where!
Well maybe the militiary, but not the politicians.

BUT HOW MUCH ELESTRICITY IS BEING WASTED BYHAVE A A COMPUTER AND TV ON ALOT WHEN IT CAN BE USED FOR SOMETHING LIKE HELPING SOMEONE LIVE IN A HOSPITAL
Would you like to be a plant kept alive by machines, while you have 0% chance of ever getting out of a coma.Those people are practically dead.

Ace
07-15-2005, 10:03 PM
Ehm, not everyone has those things. Let's take partnerless, working mothers in areas with huge concentration of minorities. They have a job and a home, but they can hardly support their children. So they don't own a car.

Although I do admit it was an accidental overstatement to say ‘everyone’, those with a job and home without a car still has a job that does not include constant danger, unlike the harsh conditions many of the workers in the rural areas of China have to suffer, which was the major part of my argument against AlakazamTrainer. Although their situations are quite bad, situations of similar and even worse proportions exist in large amounts on rural China.

Well, AlakazamTrainer has a point. Carpooling and using public transportation reduce the amount of gas needed and the amount of carbondioxide produces.

First of all, carpooling is a very hard system to uphold. One car itself usually only holds 2-6 people. In most situations, people working in one office are usually spread abroad in a radius around that office. If that is the case, you’ll have one car have to travel at least an hour around that radius and then to where the actual office is located. Having one man simply pick up another of his fellow workers will not have enough effect; having one man pick up five others will still consume as much gas as it would for those 6 to commute normally.

Second of all, regarding buses, in order to fulfill an entire population that is bus-dependant, you would have to create many more bus routes and stops in addition to building many more buses in order to fill the population. That said, having everyone stuffed into buses will just not work, as of course one bus would consume more gas than a single vehicle. In rush hour, you would have to have an enormous number of buses to fulfill the population and their main routes. Also, if that were to happen, the excess buses would only waste gas in times outside of rush hour, so where you would need some five buses to complete those going through one route during rush hour, you would have four of those five buses driving with little to no passengers during other hours, as one of those five would be sufficient enough for the little of those traveling in between the rush hours, only wasting gas in the long run. Also, oil prices would still skyrocket if in low amounts, so even if we did have a successful bus-dependant population, bus fares would still be deeply effected, charging fares as high as $3-$5.

Well maybe the militiary, but not the politicians.

I do not recall politician involvement before 9/11, if you would be kind to elaborate, I would gladly care to listen.

Incongruity
07-15-2005, 10:09 PM
I do not recall politician involvement before 9/11, if you would be kind to elaborate, I would gladly care to listen.


Clinton: sends cruise missiles to terrorist strongholds in Afghanistan, August 1998; no casualties on American side

conservative media says it is an attempt to distract from the Monica Lewinski scandal.

Clinton pressured out.

Apparently there were terrorists in Afghanistan.

DaRkUmBrEoN
07-16-2005, 06:35 AM
What ssk1911 said.
But don't forget the role that the US has played in the Palestinian conflict.
People could hate them for that.

AlakazamTrainer
07-16-2005, 09:00 AM
WTF I am not yelling you guys saw you cannot read my writing as regular, now it is too big oh well I give up. I just saw this and wrote one thing I did not want to write 5 things well I am out and good youthink that it is a good reason to be in Iraq I don't I feel for the Iraq people.I am sticking up for the other side cause I hate the Presidents that the people of America have voted for President.Now I want to be the first colored President now. :wink: .Then Mexico and America can be one LOL :smile:. I doubt i will but I hope that there is more color in the White House maybe it can be painted Brown and called the Brown House.America needs to be straight by "Mexicans".Sorry if what I have wrote has offended some non mexicans :silenced:
My car can hold four people me and my girlfriend i don't take the bus so forget the bus thing drivie if you want don't then you don't have to.Sorry i felt like arguing that day.But think what you want about the Presidents not everyone likes them some do.So I just sayed that the government needs a colored President that is all. :silenced:

Hogtree
07-18-2005, 03:27 PM
Sorry for pushing in but did one of you say the DDD/Dani was hurt. It's just she was a good friend of mine on the GV forums [if i'm thinking of the same person]. I better PM her.

EDIT: Phew. She was in Bristol at the time.

Condolences to any members who were affected by the bombing though.

EDIT2: The war for oil was not justifiable.
We did need to kick Hussein out, yes, but I don't believe we really need the oil.

In modern-day society we should be starting to make better energy sources.
Solar, hydro and wind power should really be put into place, if not for the good of now, but for the future.

Not to say the bombing were justifiable. And Leeds [where the bombers were from] isn't very far from here.

Daniella Defines Divinity
07-18-2005, 06:47 PM
Sorry for pushing in but did one of you say the DDD/Dani was hurt. It's just she was a good friend of mine on the GV forums [if i'm thinking of the same person]. I better PM her.

EDIT: Phew. She was in Bristol at the time.

Condolences to any members who were affected by the bombing though.

EDIT2: The war for oil was not justifiable.
We did need to kick Hussein out, yes, but I don't believe we really need the oil.

In modern-day society we should be starting to make better energy sources.
Solar, hydro and wind power should really be put into place, if not for the good of now, but for the future.

Not to say the bombing were justifiable. And Leeds [where the bombers were from] isn't very far from here.

Woah, random to see you here o_0 but it's good to see you :) and a handful of people are at www.n-philes.com [/offtopic]

To be honest I'm not sure wher I stand on it all, overall I'd say the war is justifiable now, but when the war started it was for the wrong reasons, then again if they hadn't gopne to war then who's to say if it would be justified to do it now because some of this stuff wouldn't have happenned...

DaRkUmBrEoN
07-18-2005, 09:05 PM
To be honest I'm not sure wher I stand on it all, overall I'd say the war is justifiable now, but when the war started it was for the wrong reasons, then again if they hadn't gopne to war then who's to say if it would be justified to do it now because some of this stuff wouldn't have happenned...

Too many " if "s. :silenced: * becomes crazy*
It's too late, and too much of a hazle, to discuss if it was justified.
For some is was and for other things it wasn't.

In modern-day society we should be starting to make better energy sources.
Solar, hydro and wind power should really be put into place, if not for the good of now, but for the future.
You're absolutely right, but think of the effort that would cost. Especially hydro cost a lot of time, money and precious space. You first need to build a dam. Then you need to get people out of their homes and fill up a lake.
Too many weak points. *sighs*

Hogtree
07-19-2005, 09:33 AM
Woah, random to see you here o_0 but it's good to see you :) and a handful of people are at www.n-philes.com [/offtopic]

To be honest I'm not sure wher I stand on it all, overall I'd say the war is justifiable now, but when the war started it was for the wrong reasons, then again if they hadn't gopne to war then who's to say if it would be justified to do it now because some of this stuff wouldn't have happenned...
Hey, IQ [I'll start calling you Dani soon], I guess it's just fate [or dumb luck]that:
1. You were at Murr's [is he on this forum also?]. At least I think Murr lives in Bristol.
2. That we met after all this time [even though it was only a few months].
Anyway as it says in my sig, GV is down now. I honestly don't know why, probably another casualty by the bomb [although I doubt it] so I'm hanging here for the mo [and probably n-philes now you mention it].

Anyway lets get back on topic :oops:
You're absolutely right, but think of the effort that would cost. Especially hydro cost a lot of time, money and precious space. You first need to build a dam. Then you need to get people out of their homes and fill up a lake.
Too many weak points. *sighs*
As they say "Rome wasn't build in a day"
As a Northumbrian citizen, I'm pretty lucky because of Kielder. The rest of the country thought we were fools, but I don't think we've had a drought since. :cool:
Oh yeah, I said I should go back on topic.

Back to Kielder though, of course it will be difficult at first but that's progress.
Solar energy shouldn't be too difficult. Especially with global warming increasing the amount on this planet. A few panels here and there and it should be OK.
Now for wind power, I think the Dutch have already been using it for years [no offence]. I also know the North Sea produces a lot of wind and I personally don't think wind turbines look bad at all, they add that little bit a scenery.

On the money aspect, I wonder how much the Gulf War 2 cost? :rolleyes:

Eep. I just realised i've been off topic the all way through. Sorry.

DaRkUmBrEoN
07-19-2005, 09:43 AM
Back to Kielder though, of course it will be difficult at first but that's progress.
Solar energy shouldn't be too difficult. Especially with global warming increasing the amount on this planet. A few panels here and there and it should be OK.
Now for wind power, I think the Dutch have already been using it for years [no offence]. I also know the North Sea produces a lot of wind and I personally don't think wind turbines look bad at all, they add that little bit a scenery.

On the money aspect, I wonder how much the Gulf War 2 cost? :rolleyes:


Solar energy doesn't run on solar heat. Global warming is caused by CO2 that's now being active in a higher concentration, thus keeping the heat on Earth. Solar cells are being charged by sun light, and the amount of sun isn't going to change that much.

As for wind power on the North Sea. The Dutch government is trying to realize that, but the also need to think of the marine life, currently inhabiting the North Sea, and of the fishermen who depend on them for a living.

Hogtree
07-19-2005, 10:03 AM
1. Solar energy doesn't run on solar heat. Global warming is caused by CO2 that's now being active in a higher concentration, thus keeping the heat on Earth. Solar cells are being charged by sun light, and the amount of sun isn't going to change that much.

2. As for wind power on the North Sea. The Dutch government is trying to realize that, but the also need to think of the marine life, currently inhabiting the North Sea, and of the fishermen who depend on them for a living.
1. Oh well, I'm not really that knowledgeable on Solar energy anyway. I just don't want this planet dieing.

2. Hmm. I guess that is a problem. Shouldn't be too hard to fix, though. There are already a few on this side and I don't think it's harmed the fishing industry too much.

DaRkUmBrEoN
07-21-2005, 03:22 PM
News Flash:

There were (attempted) attacks in London. 3 in tubes and 1 in a bus.

Check CNN or something like that for more

TDD91
07-21-2005, 05:28 PM
www.bbc.co.uk is the best for news on London II. London based company, saw the news when it was released. Looks like a repeat attempt. =/ 3 Tubes an a bus, just like 2 weeks ago. Apparantly someone tried to detonate a rucksack, and someone's been injured as well. Nicht gut.

miyoun
07-21-2005, 07:20 PM
Watched the news when getting me hair cut. I really don't like whats happening, we already had someone who knew my family going missing. We don't know who we know that was involved. I'm scared, soon i'll prolly be peeing myself with fright.

<< Wishing she'd never been to London. Met lot's of people (even though we were told by our headmaster not to meet anyone), and is now scared. 2, is that she couln't breathe in London.

Literaly, I'm scared. Deryn heard about the first bombings in London on CNN in Jamaica while a Hurricane was going on.

Alakazam
07-21-2005, 09:34 PM
Global warming is caused by CO2 that's now being active in a higher concentration, thus keeping the heat on Earth.



But there is a much bigger factor that's contributing to "global warming". We're coming out of an ice age. :wink:

DaRkUmBrEoN
07-21-2005, 09:44 PM
Did you have to be exact, Alakazam. :susp:

But ya, you're right. But the Earth is warming up quite nicely by itself....

Dragon Lover
07-22-2005, 06:33 AM
So... how did things change from terrorist attack on London to Global warming...? :confused:

~DL~

DaRkUmBrEoN
07-22-2005, 08:49 AM
Dunno, maybe because Alakazam quoted a post that I made?

Alakazam
07-22-2005, 12:29 PM
Yeah, that'd be why. Sorry; I didn't intend to hijack the thread.

Hogtree
07-22-2005, 01:21 PM
So... how did things change from terrorist attack on London to Global warming...? :confused:

I guess you'll have to blame me on that.

Tense country gets invaded by more advanced countries = people retaliate [not to say that justifies it].

Also rumours about oil come into play.

Oil is dirty energy [fossil fuel] and could be one of the causes of global warming.

And I know it says I'm leaving in my sig, but I'm still replying to threads I already posted in.