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Old 09-29-2010, 11:30 AM
Hassan_Descartes_AbdAllah's Avatar
Hassan_Descartes_AbdAllah Offline
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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Well, you have just as much right to practice your Muslim faith as much as I have the right to practice my Christian faith.
Im somewhat lost as to what du mean by "right". If you mean social rights then of course thats true. But if you mean Intellectual Justification, then that perhaps is open to debate. Forget the perhaps, that IS open to debate.

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Whether or not your faith or my faith is the most correct is irrelevant and so is what is deemed the "right" way to believe in something.
I dont think its irrelevant. I think thats the whole point of this thread. "What is the Reason for this Universe to exist?" thats how this thread started out. So we need to flush out the truth as to our purpose as human beings.

No offense intended whatsoever, I only want you to clarify your stance, but I dont really understand what you are getting at here. Of course we need intellectual justification for our faith. Its not that there are multiple parallel threads of Truth stretched out for you and you can pick whichever one you want and that will give you not only intellectual security but also salvation. Its not like that. If you are not willing to give it the benefit of doubt, consider this: every single major system of fiaht in this world Jealously and Zealously claims that it is right and every other faith is wrong. In Christianity you get Salvation through the Blood of Jesus Christ. In Islaam on the other hand you get salvation by Submitting to One God, singling him out in worship and obeying his commands. These are contradictory terms. You cant say both Islaam and Christianity is true and we both have equal intellectual justification to believe what we believe. For if there is One God out there, there cannot be multiple, and most importantly, contradicting, ways that claim to lead to him. Ther must just be one Truth. And we need to flush out what that is by using the intellect God so Graciously gave us.

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But the human fear of no purpose is natural. True, reason is much better than emotion when it comes to rationality. But my God didn't say I had to know He existed; He told me to believe He does. He comes out in Bible (and I believe also to the Muslim and Jewish faiths) as unfathomable and perfect. We humans are not perfect. Wouldn't it be common sense that we can't understand what is perfect? If we did, we would be perfect already. So "knowing" a deity proves worthless unless you've actually met him/her yourself and knowing that it's really them. I may have never met God, but I hope to someday.
I agree with what you said about we cannot know God. However thats beside the issue here. The topic of discussion is not whether we can know God or not, its whether we can know what purpose God created us for or not. In other words, its not about knowing the exact nature of Truth, but about knowing, in fact, identifying, what the Truth is. If we dont agree on this, then that means the God out there is irresponsible and he leaves the decision of salvation open to conjecture. Heck, every weirdo on the street can come up to you or me and claim that hes a Prophet of God and that he commanded everyone to believe in him. Point being, religion is a matter of belief, but there must always be justification for our belief.

Copied from post#33 above:
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Many people dont think about this, but faith requires reasonable justification as well. Not that you need to write these on paper and make a long argument to believe, but without reasoning, there is no justification for anything, not even faith.

When Jesus(peace be upon him) came to this earth, he performed miracles for this exact reason. Just going around the place and telling people to have faith wouldnt make sense at all. He needed to give Reason for his people to believe. His miracles spoke out thus: "These are Signs that this man has been sent by God. So believe in what he says, for this belief is justified with reason." The Christian Tradition conformed to this until very recently.

Same goes for the Prophets preceding him. God always sends His Prophets armed with Miracles and Divine Signs, so that people know Truth from Falsehood. Otherwise every weirdo on the street could come up to people and ask them to have faith in whatever "Divine" message have been "revealed" to them.

For nearly two thousand years, the Church held that Religion is based on Intellect, and not merely Faith. This gave rise to Savants such as St. Thomas Aquinas or St. Augustine. "Faith is Enough Reason" is just a new thing people have invented: it has no actual basis in the Doctrinal teachings of any religion.

If God wants us to believe, He would give us reason to believe in it. Thats the Crux of the Matter.
Response to kokovo:

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Okay, first of, I'm agnostic, meaning I believe these things are pretty much impossible to know.
So as everyone knows, Christianity/Judaism/any other religion is based on faith.
Faith requires justification, as discussed above.

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Faith that everything that we know was created by some higher power and when we die we go to heaven and chill on some clouds.
However the thing about faith is that it can never be dis-proven.
Science could come up with what they believe to be the proven answer to the universe but religions will still have their faith, and faith is all a religion needs to survive.
The "disproven" religion might survive in the hearts and minds of people, but it would lose all its intellectual basis, and one can be blamed for choosing that religion. The term "faith" might seem innocent, but factors motivate this faith, positively and negatively. On a negative side, faith can be formed because of a feeling of attachment or bias, it can form out of brainwashing (by parents, etc), it can form even out of arrogance. These types of faiths are reprimandable. To give an example: When Jesus(peace be upon him) came with the miracles (assuming He did), the Jews had no intellectual objections against the faith He was preaching. they only rejected him out of biased bigotry and arrogance. So this type of faith is reprimandable.

Important note: The above few sentences have been written only out of the assumption that the Christian and Muslim version of the story of Jesus performing Miracles to the Children of Israel is True. So a follower of the Jewish religion need not take this seriously.


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So it seems to me that you're all just going over the same "evidence" that man has for years.
Not sure what you are getting at here. what evidence did man have for years?
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Long story short: While I respect everyone's opinions, I don't see the point of discussing this. Nothing has been proven and I doubt anything ever will.
Depends on what you mean by "proven". On a polemical level, every faith has its own intellectual justification (Scriptural evidence for instance, like fulfillment of prophecies, pragmatism of the message etc). In other words, every faith has its "proof" on a polemical level, and these can be very much debated on, for and against. You are brushing aside this important fact and not giving anything any benefit of doubt, which is kind of narrow-minded (no offense intended, Im criticising the view you take and not you as a person).

Kenny:

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Some people can't accept that there is a possibility that "there is no meaning to life". Others, like I, have accepted that there is no intrinsic meaning to life, but that it is what we make of it that is its meaning. From my own point of view, it matters not whether or not we transmigrate. It only matters what we do what we feel matters to us. Ironically, this definition has caused me to butt heads with some of our fine users at PE2K more than once. lol
I appreciate and respect the intellectual tone you use. But I think both of us will agree that blind hypothesizing on the matter doesnt really help anyone looking for the actual meaning behind all this. smile
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