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Old 05-03-2011, 08:05 AM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Originally Posted by Neo Emolga View Post
Are you guys for real? Man, it's almost scary how quickly and how irrationally people forget what these guys did, and that's probably the rest why history repeats itself. Osama bin Laden was a soulless bastard who started this whole nightmare in the first place, really no better than Hitler or Stalin were. He had no one to blame but himself. Thing is, if we didn't stop him, who would? What was going to stand in his way to stop him from continuing this from city to city, country to country? Nothing, someone had to stop him. Otherwise, yeah, he would have kept on going, thinking he was a hero for taking a stab at a country that had to work hard for its success.
A soulless man to which America itself created, no less. Osama was funded by your own CIA right up until his "betrayal".

I think you're confused as to where I'm getting at, so I'll be very blunt: Osama's death isn't something to celebrate about. It's something for ones to solemnly reflect upon, for thousands of people died for such a cause. Thousands of innocents died for the sake of this war in itself. Thus it is not justice that is served, it was simply vengeance. Whether or not he should have been stopped one way or another (which I do agree that he should be stopped) doesn't factor into this matter. That is, don't dwell in nonexistent glory. It is not befitting and certainly insulting to the lives that were lost to this war.

Originally Posted by Neo Emolga View Post
Also, Dark Shadow Lord is WRONG, this is NOT one extremist we're talking about, this is an entire terrorist group that is being targeted to be taken down (didn't I say this already?). Also, unfortunately, a war was necessary, and yes, unfortunately, sacrifices had to be made because there weren't any alternatives (and if you had a good alternative in mind, speak up!). Sorry, but telling terrorists "hey guys, that wasn't nice, behave next time!" isn't going to do anything. It sounds stupid because it is. Negotiations don't work with extremists like this either, so what is to be done? Nothing at all? There are times when words don't work anymore, and action becomes necessary. If action is not taken, then expect a cycle of abuse and duress. I think it sounds rather stupid to let a country so far behind in technological and economical advancement bully us around like we're just some punching bag to rage against.
I think I clarified my statements more in the previous paragraph. Action is taken, but the cycle of duress continues nonetheless. America changed since 2001, and it will never become anything like the pre-2001 era, I give you that.

It's interesting to note that a country that is technologically behind and is bullying the US around much more than Afghanistan. The only difference between North Korea and Afghanistan really is just the ability vs the inability to conduct nuclear warfare.

It seems more like you're not thinking rationally, to be honest, due to the fact that there are tons of other people who do disagree with you. It's a pretty common psychological phenomenon, and most certainly I have suffered through it in my lifetime and even here in this board.

Originally Posted by Neo Emolga View Post
And what's so wrong with "God bless America?" I know most of you are so hopelessly and sadly swept up in your own parade of atheism, but seriously, lay off. If you don't want to love this country, fine, then don't ever come here. And while you're at it, stop trying to turn OUR country into YOUR country. This business of coming here and hating our culture makes me sick.
First, you keep blabbing about me being atheist when you clearly know I'm not because I emphasized and re-ephasized each time. What's up with that? Look up "Ad hominem" in the meantime, since clearly you're conducting such an act without realizing it.

To love a country is to love its people, not some supreme being that may or may not exist. If you cannot recognize that the country's existence is due to the accomplishments of its people, then perhaps you should introspect on why one would find "God bless America" insulting to its own people. That is, doing so undermines the integrity of everything the country's people have done to make the country, for better or worse. Religion has no place in one's love for the country and its countrymen.

Secondarily, "God bless America" summarizes the entirety of the reason for this war. Getting down to it, the extremists did what they did for religion.

Originally Posted by Neo Emolga View Post
Sounds great if you never believed in justice. Letting the blind man suffer while the attacker that blinded him goes free and enjoys the sight of life isn't right either, you know. Otherwise, all the innocent are blind and all the guilty can see.
Rather than lashing out at the poor guy, rather see your own self. Why are you so entirely angry about all of this? I can see that your pride comes entirely from vengeance. That much is easy to see, but it still is true that vengeance is a vicious cycle as well. I can't see how you can fail to see that simple logic.

Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
Figurehead or not, Bin Ladin is a symbol to the whole world, including the terrorists, and they are as easily swayed by symbolism and propaganda as anyone else. In the long run the fact that he's dead will hurt their cause. The fact that they lost THE most visible symbol of their success is a major blow, a symbolic blow, but symbols are important nonetheless. The fall of the Berlin Wall wasn't really significant either, but it changed the way people thought about Communism. Decades from now, Osama's death could well be seen as where it all started to end.
Agreed. The symbolic blow is what it is. In the short term the violence would definitely escalate. I'm not completely sure what would happen in the long term, as what stems from this is religion. That isn't going to go away any time soon. Perhaps then we should take the time to introspect on how we have been acting this whole time.

Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
Yes, it's hypocritical. But criticizing America for not being perfect just doesn't hold water. There's no country on Earth that, if placed in America's situation, wouldn't have done the same. And if there was it would rapidly cease to be a country. America did what it had to, and it turned out well. That's the most that can be asked.
There's a reason why I picked specific words without stating whether or not it had to be done. I didn't say America shouldn't, but rather that the trade off was horrendous for America. While this may imply that I am saying this is the wrong way of getting at it, it simply means that perhaps there is a better way of getting through this. Neo's insistence that war was the only way is reminiscent of the exact same things the terrorists had in mind. And that terrifies me. Remember, I am no genius and I am not a person who is capable of changing the world for the better. I am but a simple doctor.

I am simply criticizing America for insulting its own fallen soldiers and those that have died in 2001. It is a solemn event for that we have brought vengeance for our people. Nothing more, nothing less. I will not celebrate how our troops died in the war, but I will remember that they had sacrificed themselves for the war.

Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
Also, any claim that Osama's death wasn't worth it is clearly ignoring everything else that America has done in the process. The conflict in the Middle East escalated beyond Osama Bin Ladin years ago. A century later, Iraq and Afghanistan could be democratic, modernized societies full of people whose lives are hundreds of times better than they would have been otherwise; would it be worth it then? Maybe even the Arab Spring wouldn't have happened if Iraq and Afghanistan hadn't happened. We stopped going to war for Bin Ladin ages ago, so of course if you compare our sacrifices for everything else to that one mission it will look meager. But we didn't, and we're not, and since you can't pinpoint exactly what sacrifices were made to get to him, you can't argue that Osama wasn't worth it since you don't know what we paid.
In terms of cost:benefit ratio in a strictly economic terms, I think America did pretty well. I mean, they got plenty of oil now, but at a pretty hefty cost. The military bases in Iraq are up already, so in that sense certainly America gained quite a bit from it. Still, I can't imagine the pain of losing 1 person, let alone the pain of thousands. I'm absolutely certain that the families of the deceased didn't find any of the rest of the missions "worth it" for their sons/daughters. Vengeance, however, I feel those families would find "worth it", despite the implications of such an event.

It is perhaps too idealistic to presume that Iraq and Afghanistan will become democratic when we can't even achieve a semblance of that in home turf. Perhaps centuries from now we might even have found a political system that's better than democracy. Who knows, considering the idealistic conditions we're placing this argument on. The root of the problem is a religious issue. That isn't going to go away any time soon with evangelicals running around everywhere on both sides.
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