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Old 05-04-2011, 01:31 AM
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Lusankya Offline
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Originally Posted by Ayotui View Post
my main problem with this is that. osama is dead as opposed to captured, and that as far as i know the mission was to kill him as opposed to capturing him and have him be tried for crimes against humanity.

i just dont like the fact that they killed him before he could be judged.
Capturing him would have opened up an enormous jar of worms. Besides making retribution from Al-Qaeda more determined due to having it more public, there's also the fact that he was hiding in Pakistan, whose government undoubtedly has officials that are sympathetic towards him and could have tied up extraction attempts with diplomatic nonsense. Not to mention attempts to rescue him while he was being removed from the country, etc. In a more practical, immediate sense, extracting a prisoner from the middle of what was quite literally a fortress could have been highly problematic, and Bin Ladin may have committed suicide in the process, either by himself or getting one of his friends to shoot him, or maybe even having put bombs on himself in expectations of martyrdom. Killing him was straight and clean, and may have saved American lives. It's not like there was doubt of his guilt, the only purpose a trial could have would be humiliation.

Oh, not to mention he probably didn't refrain from shooting any would-be capturees, again making capture difficult...

Agreed. The symbolic blow is what it is. In the short term the violence would definitely escalate. I'm not completely sure what would happen in the long term, as what stems from this is religion. That isn't going to go away any time soon. Perhaps then we should take the time to introspect on how we have been acting this whole time.
Religion's not so much the problem as what the radicals view as injustices dealt to them by the West (aka, the Middle East would be paradise if the meddling Christians hadn't interfered!). While their religion certainly acts as a catalyst for such actions, it can't be said for sure that if Islam didn't exist, there wouldn't something like Al-Qaeda. Then again it's pretty much impossible to accurately imagine a Middle East without Islam, so it's hard to say either way. At least we can agree that this isn't going to go away anytime soon.

There's a reason why I picked specific words without stating whether or not it had to be done. I didn't say America shouldn't, but rather that the trade off was horrendous for America. While this may imply that I am saying this is the wrong way of getting at it, it simply means that perhaps there is a better way of getting through this. Neo's insistence that war was the only way is reminiscent of the exact same things the terrorists had in mind. And that terrifies me. Remember, I am no genius and I am not a person who is capable of changing the world for the better. I am but a simple doctor.

I am simply criticizing America for insulting its own fallen soldiers and those that have died in 2001. It is a solemn event for that we have brought vengeance for our people. Nothing more, nothing less. I will not celebrate how our troops died in the war, but I will remember that they had sacrificed themselves for the war.
It comes down to how we view war, imo. I take the sentiment that once people start shooting you, it doesn't matter if they are doing so rightfully or wrongfully; you have to shoot back if you care at all about living. There was no reasonable pacifist response to 9/11 that I can see, as it would merely be perceived as weakness and inviting further attacks. Right or wrong, I can't think of a viable alternative to war as a response to being attacked. There was surely a better way of waging that war, but the act of going to war was unavoidable.

In terms of cost:benefit ratio in a strictly economic terms, I think America did pretty well. I mean, they got plenty of oil now, but at a pretty hefty cost. The military bases in Iraq are up already, so in that sense certainly America gained quite a bit from it. Still, I can't imagine the pain of losing 1 person, let alone the pain of thousands. I'm absolutely certain that the families of the deceased didn't find any of the rest of the missions "worth it" for their sons/daughters. Vengeance, however, I feel those families would find "worth it", despite the implications of such an event.

It is perhaps too idealistic to presume that Iraq and Afghanistan will become democratic when we can't even achieve a semblance of that in home turf. Perhaps centuries from now we might even have found a political system that's better than democracy. Who knows, considering the idealistic conditions we're placing this argument on. The root of the problem is a religious issue. That isn't going to go away any time soon with evangelicals running around everywhere on both sides.
I don't think any war since WWII could be viewed as beneficial to the US in terms of strict economic cost to benefit ratios. In a Industrial/post-Industrial era, the economic sacrifices made to go to war nearly always outweigh the economic benefits. Whatever we get out of Iraq and Afghanistan isn't going to make up for the hundreds of billions poured in. Bush was an idealist who envisioned himself bringing freedom, love, and apple pie to the Middle East, and that is ultimately why we ended up invading Iraq; not oil, or WMDs. As for the emotional cost/benefit, I can't imagine that we can measure that, so I won't try and guess at whether it was worth it from that standpoint. In terms of international politics and the way America is perceived though, I do believe going to war was the only way.

And yes, it's idealistic. I was assuming best-case scenario to make the point.

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Dali: "I know what the picture should be ... We take a duck and put some dynamite in its derriere. When the duck explodes, I jump and you take the picture."
Halsman: "Don't forget that we are in America. We will be put in prison if we start exploding ducks."
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Last edited by Lusankya; 05-04-2011 at 01:46 AM.
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