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  #46  
Old 05-15-2010, 06:33 AM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Alright, I see what you're trying to do here, but it's being poorly executed. In short, there are many more variables you have to consider in this when giving pokemon a different point value; for example, when rated, these pokemon are put against each other within maybe a 3 point margin, right? If so, you're not thinking about how those pokemon can be used together, and not basing this on usage, merely potential. For example, Sun teams would be a lot more common than they are because they have such good potetial. Tangrowth in D/P really helped them by providing both a defensive brick wall, but also a more than adequate Swords Dance sweeper, having a 120 BP Power Whip. But it doesn't stop there, it also makes a great mixed sweeper having acess to Leaf Storm, Hidden Power Fire, and Chlorophyll. However, there's Tyranitar or Hippowdon to consider. Hell, even Abomasnow could come in due to a match against two uncommon teams, and just ruin the weather, forcing you to take damage with one of your sunny day'ers, or sacrifice something to get a free switch. There are also that can live a hit and use its sun against it.
Again, falling into the whole usage thing, you could say Bronzong would be great due to its ability to take hits and having great supporting moves. But again, he's slow Taunt fodder and will be set upon. I think it would just be easier to stick to the smogon tiers; their familiar, everybody knows them, and while sometimes drastic, they are pretty fair. There are broken sweepers like Scizor and Salamence, but there are pokemon that can be used very well against them. Magnezone, Infernape, Scarf Heatran, etc. It's a battle of the fittest in the OU metagame, and while it can get monotonous, it's just fine.
I think these tiers are a fun thing to make up and play for a bit, but eventually you will be using the smogon tiers and you know it.
But hey, if these get popular, who knows. They could be another major tier once refined and edited.
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  #47  
Old 05-15-2010, 08:15 AM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broderick View Post
Alright, I see what you're trying to do here, but it's being poorly executed. In short, there are many more variables you have to consider in this when giving pokemon a different point value; for example, when rated, these pokemon are put against each other within maybe a 3 point margin, right? If so, you're not thinking about how those pokemon can be used together, and not basing this on usage, merely potential. For example, Sun teams would be a lot more common than they are because they have such good potetial. Tangrowth in D/P really helped them by providing both a defensive brick wall, but also a more than adequate Swords Dance sweeper, having a 120 BP Power Whip. But it doesn't stop there, it also makes a great mixed sweeper having acess to Leaf Storm, Hidden Power Fire, and Chlorophyll. However, there's Tyranitar or Hippowdon to consider. Hell, even Abomasnow could come in due to a match against two uncommon teams, and just ruin the weather, forcing you to take damage with one of your sunny day'ers, or sacrifice something to get a free switch. There are also that can live a hit and use its sun against it.
Again, falling into the whole usage thing, you could say Bronzong would be great due to its ability to take hits and having great supporting moves. But again, he's slow Taunt fodder and will be set upon. I think it would just be easier to stick to the smogon tiers; their familiar, everybody knows them, and while sometimes drastic, they are pretty fair. There are broken sweepers like Scizor and Salamence, but there are pokemon that can be used very well against them. Magnezone, Infernape, Scarf Heatran, etc. It's a battle of the fittest in the OU metagame, and while it can get monotonous, it's just fine.
I think these tiers are a fun thing to make up and play for a bit, but eventually you will be using the smogon tiers and you know it.
But hey, if these get popular, who knows. They could be another major tier once refined and edited.
I agree with the first paragraph, but disagree with the second. If they're are trying to create something new in this game then I'm all for it. Yeah it might ultimately fail, but if they don't try, you'll never know. He did mention kyogre(fail spelling is fail) as one of the pokemon that needs special attention and I think all auto weather pokes need to fall under that category. What sandstorm has over sun is auto weather.

I'm not much of a tester, so I won't be much help, but you do have my full support of this
This is sort of like a BST capped battle.
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  #48  
Old 05-16-2010, 01:24 AM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

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Originally Posted by Broderick View Post
Alright, I see what you're trying to do here, but it's being poorly executed. In short, there are many more variables you have to consider in this when giving pokemon a different point value; for example, when rated, these pokemon are put against each other within maybe a 3 point margin, right? If so, you're not thinking about how those pokemon can be used together, and not basing this on usage, merely potential. For example, Sun teams would be a lot more common than they are because they have such good potetial. Tangrowth in D/P really helped them by providing both a defensive brick wall, but also a more than adequate Swords Dance sweeper, having a 120 BP Power Whip. But it doesn't stop there, it also makes a great mixed sweeper having acess to Leaf Storm, Hidden Power Fire, and Chlorophyll. However, there's Tyranitar or Hippowdon to consider. Hell, even Abomasnow could come in due to a match against two uncommon teams, and just ruin the weather, forcing you to take damage with one of your sunny day'ers, or sacrifice something to get a free switch. There are also that can live a hit and use its sun against it.
Again, falling into the whole usage thing, you could say Bronzong would be great due to its ability to take hits and having great supporting moves. But again, he's slow Taunt fodder and will be set upon. I think it would just be easier to stick to the smogon tiers; their familiar, everybody knows them, and while sometimes drastic, they are pretty fair. There are broken sweepers like Scizor and Salamence, but there are pokemon that can be used very well against them. Magnezone, Infernape, Scarf Heatran, etc. It's a battle of the fittest in the OU metagame, and while it can get monotonous, it's just fine.
I think these tiers are a fun thing to make up and play for a bit, but eventually you will be using the smogon tiers and you know it.
But hey, if these get popular, who knows. They could be another major tier once refined and edited.
Just out of curiosity, did you actually look into how I derived the numbers mathematically? Because I essentially addressed almost every one of those factors you described. There are factors that take into account STAB attacks, offensive type effectiveness, offensive movepool, defensive values, defensive typing, support moves, secondary attack effects, entry hazards, entry hazard weaknesses, healing moves, status changing moves, etc.

I don't mean this directed at you, but a lot of people seem to think I just pulled these numbers out of a hat or subjectively assigned numbers to each pokemon based upon what I guessed they should be. The truth is, I developed a mathematical equation to derive the numbers. Now, you can argue that the equation or pieces of it aren't taking things into account properly, which is fine. But when you say I'm not taking A, B, and C into account, when I actually am taking them into account, it's hard to know where your qualm is directed.
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  #49  
Old 05-16-2010, 01:55 AM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

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Originally Posted by Dragoon952 View Post
Just out of curiosity, did you actually look into how I derived the numbers mathematically? Because I essentially addressed almost every one of those factors you described. There are factors that take into account STAB attacks, offensive type effectiveness, offensive movepool, defensive values, defensive typing, support moves, secondary attack effects, entry hazards, entry hazard weaknesses, healing moves, status changing moves, etc.

I don't mean this directed at you, but a lot of people seem to think I just pulled these numbers out of a hat or subjectively assigned numbers to each pokemon based upon what I guessed they should be. The truth is, I developed a mathematical equation to derive the numbers. Now, you can argue that the equation or pieces of it aren't taking things into account properly, which is fine. But when you say I'm not taking A, B, and C into account, when I actually am taking them into account, it's hard to know where your qualm is directed.
Im not trying to be rude or anything, but can you show us how articuno, aerodactyl, charzard, and xatu got so high?

Just wondering, since theyre honestly not good.
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  #50  
Old 05-16-2010, 06:23 AM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

I'm not sure about Articuno, but I can imagine that charizard is high because of its type coverage and Belly Drum, which instantly quadruples its attack. It also has Dragon Dance. Xatu is probably due to it's defensive typing and wide array of support moves such as Wish.

Dragoon has introduced a Stealth Rock modifier too, so I'll soon be adjusting the values in the original post with these new, lower values.
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  #51  
Old 05-16-2010, 02:42 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by cutter kirby View Post
Im not trying to be rude or anything, but can you show us how articuno, aerodactyl, charzard, and xatu got so high?

Just wondering, since theyre honestly not good.
It's not rude at all. It's an honest question.

All 4 of those got so high because a factor I had not yet taken into account really needed to be in there: stealth rock weakness. I added a modifier for that, and the modified numbers for all stealth rock pokemon can be found, I believe, a few pages ago. See if that gives you a slightly different look. I've been meaning to research stealth rock for a while, just hadn't got to it yet.

I'm also working on some minor tweaks in how I calculate a few numbers, which will modify it slightly further. Work in progress.

@Max: Maybe you should edit the first post with those numbers since the information seems to be getting buried.

Last edited by Dragoon952; 05-16-2010 at 05:42 PM.
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  #52  
Old 05-16-2010, 05:16 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

I've updated the first post now folks. Pokemon affected by Stealth Rock have now had their values adjusted.

Dragoon, are you needing a hand with calculating values or anything like that? I'm gonna have a load of free time over the summer, so I should be able to help. I'll be posting in here most of the time now; for some reason I get disconnected from the Serebii forums before I can post. I can still read the stuff you post over there though.
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Last edited by Max211; 05-16-2010 at 05:20 PM.
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  #53  
Old 05-16-2010, 05:55 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

I think the point values are going to need severe work. Seems like some should be much higher and some much lower. Scizor having only 16? It is the most used in the meta by a rediculous amount.
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  #54  
Old 05-16-2010, 06:45 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max211 View Post
I've updated the first post now folks. Pokemon affected by Stealth Rock have now had their values adjusted.

Dragoon, are you needing a hand with calculating values or anything like that? I'm gonna have a load of free time over the summer, so I should be able to help. I'll be posting in here most of the time now; for some reason I get disconnected from the Serebii forums before I can post. I can still read the stuff you post over there though.
Any help would be great. You can pick an NU pokemon I haven't done yet and take crack at it. I can look at it when you're done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verystrait42 View Post
I think the point values are going to need severe work. Seems like some should be much higher and some much lower. Scizor having only 16? It is the most used in the meta by a rediculous amount.
Not sure if you looked at the pre or post stealth rock numbers.

The Values derived are taking into account lots of variables. some have values derived from their support abilities, some from their offense, and some from their defense. You can't just compare one to the other and say one is better because they'd win hands down in a 1 on 1 fight. Some pokemon are very one dimensional, even though they are very good at that one thing. Also, smogon numbers mean absolutely nothing as of now in this environment. It is different when you are only preparing for a certain set of threats.

You have to look at it this way when you have a system like this: how do you compare an offensive pokemon in the same terms as a support pokemon? In a baton pass chain, for instance, is the Ninjask lead as important as the final receiver of the baton passes? Even though Ninjask by itself probably couldn't do much? What about the dual screener, or the cleric? Are they as important to a team structure value wise as the one dimensional "I'll punch you in the face as hard as I can" pokemon?

Also, 16 IS one of the higher end numbers, particularly after stealth rock modifiers were put in place. Also, it completely depends on the environment that's played. If you set a team max at 60, Scizor would take up more than 25% of the points you could use for your team.

Honestly, it's probably best to wait until I get more numbers up for comparison, but just keep those factors in mind. Because an OU pokemon is used heavily in an OU environment that favors around 10% of the pokemon available does not necessarily reflect it's "value" in terms of the entirety. I don't remember anyone taking Camerupt into account when talking about Scizor or Magnezone, because you are most likely never going to see it in OU. It might be different once this system begins testing (just as an example. I'm not saying it is a good counter).

Last edited by Dragoon952; 05-16-2010 at 07:19 PM.
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  #55  
Old 05-17-2010, 02:13 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Dragoon; I thought I'd go for something relatively simple to begin with, so I went for Kingler. After using the values on the Spreadsheet I got 7.87 - does that get rounded up or down? Also, does that seem like an okay value for you?

Regarding Scizor, Machamp and Gyarados - how does everyone feel we should test these?
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  #56  
Old 05-17-2010, 02:14 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

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Originally Posted by Max211 View Post
Dragoon; I thought I'd go for something relatively simple to begin with, so I went for Kingler. After using the values on the Spreadsheet I got 7.87 - does that get rounded up or down? Also, does that seem like an okay value for you?

Regarding Scizor, Machamp and Gyarados - how does everyone feel we should test these?
It would get rounded like you'd normally round. I'll try and run the numbers on him later and see what I come up with.
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  #57  
Old 05-17-2010, 10:48 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Finally. Maybe this way people won't have a team filled with over the top OU"s pkmn. Esp SkarmBliss. That's used way too much. And stop complaining about Garchomp and etc. I'll try to help by coming up with some way to determine everything also and PM it to you (Dragoon) and see if you like it and stuff. If that's ok with you? Cause you are the mastermind behind it.
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  #58  
Old 05-17-2010, 11:08 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

After incorporating SR damage, this is starting to look right. There are of course some ones that aren't right yet, but this actually looking really good.
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  #59  
Old 05-17-2010, 11:52 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by L cisco View Post
Finally. Maybe this way people won't have a team filled with over the top OU"s pkmn. Esp SkarmBliss. That's used way too much. And stop complaining about Garchomp and etc. I'll try to help by coming up with some way to determine everything also and PM it to you (Dragoon) and see if you like it and stuff. If that's ok with you? Cause you are the mastermind behind it.
I'm open to any and all help. Feedback from people who competitively battle frequently is of the utmost importance to making sure this system works.

Garchomp is one of the highest rated pokemon (outside of other ubers I've tested but haven't finalized) in this system using the same equation I use for everyone else. And that's my goal, to get predictable results using the same equation for all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScubatheDiverman View Post
After incorporating SR damage, this is starting to look right. There are of course some ones that aren't right yet, but this actually looking really good.
I'm making a few tweaks as we speak that's actually helped some other areas, and I actually got a suggestion from someone at Serebii to make Stealth Rock modifiers not as "harsh" and incorporate Stealth Rock resistance. With these final tweaks, I really believe a testable system will be in place.

There obviously will be some adjustments that need made (particularly for pokemon with unique abilities like Machamp and Shedinja), but I hope testing will bring that out and give objectives reasons why adjustments need made.
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  #60  
Old 05-20-2010, 09:03 AM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Dragoon; as soon as the Stealth Rock modifications are finished I'll see if I can get started on finding a new "balanced" team number, seeing as 72 will be a bit too high now. Think I should start a "challenge finder" thread in the group?
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