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Pokemon Battling Center Find an opponent to battle on Pokemon Black/White, Pokemon HeartGold/SoulSilver, Pokemon Diamond/Pearl/Platinum or Pokemon Online. Join a clan or tournament here.


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  #61  
Old 05-20-2010, 12:51 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

You know I rather like this idea, with the few tweaks mentioned and a few things sort out here and there i don't see why this could not be a most enjoyible way of battling, I wish you good luck.
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  #62  
Old 05-20-2010, 01:05 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max211 View Post
Dragoon; as soon as the Stealth Rock modifications are finished I'll see if I can get started on finding a new "balanced" team number, seeing as 72 will be a bit too high now. Think I should start a "challenge finder" thread in the group?
Why don't we wait until the new numbers are done. I can use the same method I did last time to give an initial ballpark number for a team value and go from there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by takeru takaishi View Post
You know I rather like this idea, with the few tweaks mentioned and a few things sort out here and there i don't see why this could not be a most enjoyible way of battling, I wish you good luck.
Well, even if a handful of people like it then my work had some meaning to it ;)
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  #63  
Old 05-22-2010, 04:34 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

This seems interesting but I have a question, it might be a stupid or already addressed question but I'll go ahead and ask anyway.

Isn't it going to be kind of inconveniant if someone has put together a really efficient team, that, for example, comes to 55 points. Said person then organises a battle. His opponent however caps there matches at 50 points. Now this person has to either make a new team or potentialy ruin his current team by modifying it.

Just a thought.
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  #64  
Old 05-22-2010, 05:17 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

I think what we could do about that is just to ask other people, really. Maybe we could create some sort of "list" where each value would have a group of people mentioned who could battle using teams of that value.
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  #65  
Old 05-22-2010, 05:42 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

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Originally Posted by -Smoo- View Post
This seems interesting but I have a question, it might be a stupid or already addressed question but I'll go ahead and ask anyway.

Isn't it going to be kind of inconveniant if someone has put together a really efficient team, that, for example, comes to 55 points. Said person then organises a battle. His opponent however caps there matches at 50 points. Now this person has to either make a new team or potentialy ruin his current team by modifying it.

Just a thought.
I don't remember if I elaborated before or not, but I can imagine something similar to "tiers" being set up. I think I referenced boxing weight classes before.

The goal in testing will be to see what total point values produce in terms of team construction. If the point values are too high, you'll just end up with a standard OU style battle. I think a battle that forces you to go half OU and half UU would probably become sort of standard. Then it's just a matter of picking what "weight class" of battle you are participating in.

So, you would have a team total value for the following types of tiered battles (just as an example): Little Cup, NU, NU/UU, UU, UU/OU, OU, OU/Uber, Uber, etc. Each will have a standard point set, so if UU/OU produces good mixes at 60, people wil just start playing a 60 point match and know exactly what to expect.

Point is, every team should be able to fit into a category when this is finished, and then it is just a matter of finding other players that play at that point level, too. No different than trying to find UU players or NU players on smogon when you've made a team for them that would get smooshed in OU.

Hope that makes sense.
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  #66  
Old 05-22-2010, 06:08 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

That does indeed make sense, I look forward to testing this out at some point :D
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  #67  
Old 05-22-2010, 10:44 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoon952 View Post
So, you would have a team total value for the following types of tiered battles (just as an example): Little Cup, NU, NU/UU, UU, UU/OU, OU, OU/Uber, Uber, etc.
Hey Dragoon, quick question; does that mean that Ubers will only be allowed in those two "tiers"? Or would that be something for the battlers to decide amongst themselves pre-match?

I was just thinking about Pokemon like Kyogre, who could possibly sweep a whole team alone if used in a lower "tier". Then again, if they have to rely on Pokemon of rock-bottom values for backup (Wurmple maybe?) then perhaps this would balance out.
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Last edited by Max211; 05-22-2010 at 10:48 PM.
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  #68  
Old 05-22-2010, 11:19 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max211 View Post
Hey Dragoon, quick question; does that mean that Ubers will only be allowed in those two "tiers"? Or would that be something for the battlers to decide amongst themselves pre-match?

I was just thinking about Pokemon like Kyogre, who could possibly sweep a whole team alone if used in a lower "tier". Then again, if they have to rely on Pokemon of rock-bottom values for backup (Wurmple maybe?) then perhaps this would balance out.
yes, i can see this it's rather a double edged sword, on the one hand would things such as kyogre sweep on there own through an entire team of 6? now every uber has it's issues and oviously kyogre is slow and all the opponet needs is 2 faster pokemon or so to take it down and it's game over scenario, did it equip choice scarf? never fear quagisire is hear Lol but it kinda would put a limit of the varity of teams, but do we really want to ban things if we don't have to? is kygore going to be so bad it alone plows through teams? is mewtwo too vesitle and powerful to stop with your team?

i do belive that certain ubers would fit in quite nicely with there high points hindering them from getting the proper support or ability to switch out to an appropriate pokemon and such like.


anyways i belive as bad as the potential theorymon points out how potential the uber pokemon can effect things i think it would be worth testing at least.
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  #69  
Old 05-23-2010, 06:41 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max211 View Post
Hey Dragoon, quick question; does that mean that Ubers will only be allowed in those two "tiers"? Or would that be something for the battlers to decide amongst themselves pre-match?

I was just thinking about Pokemon like Kyogre, who could possibly sweep a whole team alone if used in a lower "tier". Then again, if they have to rely on Pokemon of rock-bottom values for backup (Wurmple maybe?) then perhaps this would balance out.
Like what was said, I think it will need tested. I think a top Uber tier would most likely be an "Unlimited" value battle where you can use anything. But, as for OU/Uber, it depends on how it shakes out.

As of now, with the Ubers I've tested (but haven't fully developed) they are seemingly going to be be in the 25+ point range. That's a lot comparatively. So, I can imagine that there could be a total team value that might reasonably allow an Uber or two to slide in while remaining mostly OU. We'll just have to wait and see if that's possible, but considering better OU pokemon range around 15 (it seems) then that is a large gap that could make for interesting matches. Could become a "Should I take mostly OU, or risk taking an Uber on a team of UU/NU" type of situation.

Have to wait and see. Remember, I'm only using smogon tier names to give you an idea of the type of pokemon that would show up in that type of match.
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  #70  
Old 05-28-2010, 06:51 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Ok, finished up the values with the "tweaks" and the 75%/50% stealth rock modifiers. The new numbers will be up as soon as Max can edit his first post, but here they are if you want to see them. I listed them alphabetically and by value. I also showed both the value in the 10's and 100's since some wanted to see what they'd look like. I still like the simplicty of keeping the numbers in the 10's:

POKEMON VALUE LIST (ALPHABETICAL) (05/28/10)

Code:
Abomasnow	9	91
Abra	6	61
Absol	11	108
Aerodactyl	16	164
Aggron		15	146
Alakazam	12	116
Altaria		12	121
Ambipom	11	108
Ampharos	7	75
Arbok		7	72
Arcanine	10	98
Ariados		5	45
Armaldo	7	66
Articuno	9	88
Azelf		14	145
Azumarill	8	80
Banette		8	78
Bastiodon	10	103
Beautifly	5	50
Beedrill		6	63
Bellossom	7	67
Bibarel		11	106
Blastoise	10	101
Blaziken	14	142
Blissey		23	228
Breloom	11	112
Bronzong	15	155
Butterfree	5	48
Cacturne	10	102
Camerupt	8	85
Carnivine	6	59
Castform	6	60
Celebi		19	191
Chansey	19	194
Charizard	10	97
Chatot		9	90
Cherrim	7	65
Chimecho	8	80
Claydol		12	120
Clefable	13	130
Cloyster	9	87
Corsola		7	73
Cradily		11	107
Crawdaunt	10	103
Cresselia	13	126
Crobat		15	150
Donphan	8	77
Dragonite	14	143
Drapion		14	142
Drifblim	12	121
Dugtrio		9	90
Dusknoir	8	79
Electabuzz	9	90
Electivire	11	115
Empoleon	19	189
Espeon		11	110
Farfetch'd	6	59
Feraligatr	10	101
Flareon		7	73
Flygon		18	179
Forretress	14	136
Froslass		13	129
Furret		7	75
Gallade		14	143
Garchomp	20	203
Gastrodon	11	108
Gengar		17	165
Glaceon	7	69
Glalie		7	71
Gligar		13	128
Gliscor		17	168
Gorebyss	7	72
Gyarados	11	108
Hariyama	9	91
Heatran	24	244
Heracross	10	101
Hippowdon	12	125
Hitmonlee	8	78
Hitmontop	7	74
Honchkrow	11	114
Houndoom	12	125
Huntail		7	70
Infernape	21	209
Ivysaur		6	61
Jirachi		26	265
Jolteon		12	120
Kabutops	15	148
Kingdra		15	152
Lanturn		14	136
Latias		21	207
Leafeon		9	92
Lopunny	10	97
Lucario		18	183
Ludicolo	12	118
Luxray		8	83
Machamp	9	87
Magnezone	15	151
Mamoswine	15	150
Mawile		9	92
Meganium	8	77
Mesprit		12	120
Metagross	19	187
Milotic		12	116
Minun		7	68
Mismagius	12	124
Moltres		9	89
Mothim		5	52
Nidoking	13	130
Nidoqueen	13	130
Ninetales	9	89
Ninjask		13	134
Omastar	12	123
Pichu		3	33
Pidgeot		10	97
Pikachu		7	71
Plusle		7	68
Poliwrath	14	138
Porygon-Z	10	104
Probopass	12	121
Quagsire	10	103
Qwilfish	13	126
Raikou		12	121
Regirock	10	98
Registeel	18	184
Rhyperior	13	126
Roserade	11	109
Rotom		11	109
Rotom (Fan)	11	111
Rotom (Frost)	11	112
Rotom (Heat)	11	109
Rotom (Mow)	11	109
Rotom (Wash)	11	111
Salamence	16	162
Sceptile		10	104
Scizor		16	160
Scyther		7	73
Shaymin (Land)	11	111
Skarmory	18	183
Slowbro	9	93
Smeargle	15	148
Snorlax		11	109
Spiritomb	10	95
Stantler		8	83
Staraptor	11	106
Starmie		15	150
Steelix		14	144
Suicune		13	125
Swampert	14	139
Swellow	12	122
Tangrowth	9	88
Tentacruel	14	141
Togekiss	14	139
Torterra	10	103
Toxicroak	12	122
Tyranitar	20	203
Umbreon	12	117
Ursaring	7	72
Uxie		14	137
Vaporeon	12	124
Venusaur	9	89
Wailord		10	96
Walrein		10	98
Weavile	15	148
Weezing	7	68
Whiscash	11	114
Wurmple	1	7
Xatu		12	119
Yanmega	8	83
Zapdos		14	145
POKEMON VALUE LIST (VALUE) (05/28/10)

Code:
Jirachi		26	265
Heatran	24	244
Blissey		23	228
Infernape	21	209
Latias		21	207
Garchomp	20	203
Tyranitar	20	203
Celebi		19	191
Chansey	19	194
Empoleon	19	189
Metagross	19	187
Flygon		18	179
Lucario		18	183
Registeel	18	184
Skarmory	18	183
Gengar		17	165
Gliscor		17	168
Aerodactyl	16	164
Salamence	16	162
Scizor		16	160
Aggron		15	146
Bronzong	15	155
Crobat		15	150
Kabutops	15	148
Kingdra		15	152
Magnezone	15	151
Mamoswine	15	150
Smeargle	15	148
Starmie		15	150
Weavile	15	148
Azelf		14	145
Blaziken	14	142
Dragonite	14	143
Drapion		14	142
Forretress	14	136
Gallade		14	143
Lanturn		14	136
Poliwrath	14	138
Steelix		14	144
Swampert	14	139
Tentacruel	14	141
Togekiss	14	139
Uxie		14	137
Zapdos		14	145
Clefable	13	130
Cresselia	13	126
Froslass		13	129
Gligar		13	128
Nidoking	13	130
Nidoqueen	13	130
Ninjask		13	134
Qwilfish	13	126
Rhyperior	13	126
Suicune		13	125
Alakazam	12	116
Altaria		12	121
Claydol		12	120
Drifblim	12	121
Hippowdon	12	125
Houndoom	12	125
Jolteon		12	120
Ludicolo	12	118
Mesprit		12	120
Milotic		12	116
Mismagius	12	124
Omastar	12	123
Probopass	12	121
Raikou		12	121
Swellow	12	122
Toxicroak	12	122
Umbreon	12	117
Vaporeon	12	124
Xatu		12	119
Absol		11	108
Ambipom	11	108
Bibarel		11	106
Breloom	11	112
Cradily		11	107
Electivire	11	115
Espeon		11	110
Gastrodon	11	108
Gyarados	11	108
Honchkrow	11	114
Roserade	11	109
Rotom		11	109
Rotom (Fan)	11	111
Rotom (Frost)	11	112
Rotom (Heat)	11	109
Rotom (Mow)	11	109
Rotom (Wash)	11	111
Shaymin (Land)	11	111
Snorlax		11	109
Staraptor	11	106
Whiscash	11	114
Arcanine	10	98
Bastiodon	10	103
Blastoise	10	101
Cacturne	10	102
Charizard	10	97
Crawdaunt	10	103
Feraligatr	10	101
Heracross	10	101
Lopunny	10	97
Pidgeot		10	97
Porygon-Z	10	104
Quagsire	10	103
Regirock	10	98
Sceptile		10	104
Spiritomb	10	95
Torterra	10	103
Wailord		10	96
Walrein		10	98
Abomasnow	9	91
Articuno	9	88
Chatot		9	90
Cloyster	9	87
Dugtrio		9	90
Electabuzz	9	90
Hariyama	9	91
Leafeon		9	92
Machamp	9	87
Mawile		9	92
Moltres		9	89
Ninetales	9	89
Slowbro	9	93
Tangrowth	9	88
Venusaur	9	89
Azumarill	8	80
Banette		8	78
Camerupt	8	85
Chimecho	8	80
Donphan	8	77
Dusknoir	8	79
Hitmonlee	8	78
Luxray		8	83
Meganium	8	77
Stantler		8	83
Yanmega	8	83
Ampharos	7	75
Arbok		7	72
Armaldo	7	66
Bellossom	7	67
Cherrim	7	65
Corsola		7	73
Flareon		7	73
Furret		7	75
Glaceon	7	69
Glalie		7	71
Gorebyss	7	72
Hitmontop	7	74
Huntail		7	70
Minun		7	68
Pikachu		7	71
Plusle		7	68
Scyther		7	73
Ursaring	7	72
Weezing	7	68
Abra		6	61
Beedrill		6	63
Carnivine	6	59
Castform	6	60
Farfetch'd	6	59
Ivysaur		6	61
Ariados		5	45
Beautifly	5	50
Butterfree	5	48
Mothim		5	52
Pichu		3	33
Wurmple	1	7
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  #71  
Old 05-28-2010, 09:25 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Thanks Dragoon, things should really start taking off now. I also prefer the smaller values, although it is interesting to look at some of the higher values such as the Rotom Formes.

No idea how to clean up those columns, which would explain why my first post looks a little messy. :P

About the tournament that TheFightingPikachu suggested on Serebii, I'm thinking that we should try to find one team value number for all the participants to use - perhaps that OU/UU tier you mentioned would work best for starters. What do you guys think? And is everyone happy enough with the Pokemon values already there, or should we try to get a few more NUs?
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Last edited by Max211; 05-28-2010 at 09:33 PM.
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  #72  
Old 05-28-2010, 09:30 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Im curious now. Your point allocation seems to be precise. What is it based off of, usage?
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  #73  
Old 05-28-2010, 10:00 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

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Originally Posted by BulletPuncher View Post
Im curious now. Your point allocation seems to be precise. What is it based off of, usage?
It's based off of a mathematical formula I created. The exact formula can be found in the downloadable excel spreadsheet in the first post. It's in it's own tab.

I did, however, make a few minor adjustments for the recent numbers and added a stealth rock weakness modifier, so it will be a little outdated until I get the newest spreadsheet uploaded.

The development of the formula was a long process, but usage isn't a part of it. I basically started off with the damage calculation that Pokemon uses and broke it down to it's most basic variables and went from there. I wanted to have as little subjectivity as possible initially. The movepool values had to be tested a bit because that was the first "subjective" area I ran into, and the abilities are mostly subjective and can be tweaked easily, but other than that I wanted the numbers to do the talking and not opinion.

@Max: I started last time by taking the average of the OU values and the average of the UU values and finding something in that range for a "per pokemon" average. I haven't done that yet, so I don't have a rough number to give. Last time that ended up being a bit high, but it provided a good starting point. If you want to give that a shot yourself feel free. Gonna be a busy weekend for me unfortunately.
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  #74  
Old 05-28-2010, 10:05 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

That's no problem; I'll see if I can get that sorted out sometime over the weekend after work. I'll probably have it on Sunday night if I manage to.

[EDIT] Scratch that, I'll try it out on Monday instead. Work took longer than I thought...
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Last edited by Max211; 05-30-2010 at 11:15 PM.
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  #75  
Old 05-29-2010, 01:59 AM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Ummm, the rotom formes are way better than normal rotom, but they have the same value.

This has to be changed...
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