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  #31  
Old 11-09-2010, 09:41 PM
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Default Re: Election Day 2010

Actually, it has affected me. My grandparents can no longer afford presciptions like they could before this bill passed, and its all the democrats fault.
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  #32  
Old 11-09-2010, 10:31 PM
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Default Re: Election Day 2010

I really hope Tom Emmer doesn't win the Minnesota gubernatorial election. The man went to restaurants early in his campaign to tell employees he would make their wages be below minimum because of tips for crying out loud. Pawlenty did a lot of bad things here in Minnesota, Tom Emmer wouldn't change much.

Does anyone know what would happen if a fictional character, such as Mumm-Ra, won an election through write-in votes?

Using the equation Democrats=Communists made famous by Glenn Beck, wouldn't the same logic make Republicans=Anarchists? (Democrats want more government, making them Communists. Republicans want less making them Anarchists).
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  #33  
Old 11-09-2010, 10:35 PM
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Default Re: Election Day 2010

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord View Post
Democrats are the ones that wanted this "Health Care" Bill. If you don't get health insurance you WILL go to jail. Sounds like the Democrats WANT a totalitarian government. Republicans are the ones against the health care bill. Do you want to go to jail for not having any health insurance? If you do, go vote for the Democrats and ruin this country. Having this bill WILL ruin this country. Obama doing nothing but talking about making this country better, but yet he is doing NOTHING about it.

This is how I feel.
Not only do you have no idea what the Health Care bill is, you have no idea what a totalitarian government is and you have no idea what is going on in Washington DC. Please, spend several hours researching the topic on Wikipedia before you dare to make your opinion known to anyone. It's for your own good, so you won't appear to be an ignorant toddler.
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  #34  
Old 11-09-2010, 10:35 PM
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Default Re: Election Day 2010

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord View Post
Democrats are the ones that wanted this "Health Care" Bill. If you don't get health insurance you WILL go to jail. Sounds like the Democrats WANT a totalitarian government. Republicans are the ones against the health care bill. Do you want to go to jail for not having any health insurance? If you do, go vote for the Democrats and ruin this country. Having this bill WILL ruin this country. Obama doing nothing but talking about making this country better, but yet he is doing NOTHING about it.

This is how I feel.
I have nothing to add, but you sound exactly like a political ad or the opening to a scary documentary. No relevance, I just thought it was pretty funny, especially read aloud in a dramatic voice.

Oh, wait, I do have something to add: hyperbole is bad. No single bill ruins a country, certainly not a health care reform bill.
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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
I agree though, since this whole economic situation really isn't something that Obama can solve. It isn't something that anybody can solve, really, since the problem is deep.
I agree completely, though I honestly don't believe there's a huge problem. Economies, especially less regulated ones like the economy of the US, go through booms and recessions. That's just how the system works, s'far as I know.
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Never say never. However, what is true is that the Republicans have gone ahead in these elections and Palin's the figurehead of Tea Party that's backing the Republicans.
Yeah, that's pretty distressing. :/ Like I said, it seems to me that's more the younger voters not caring and the conservative voters getting all freaked out and presumably voting in droves. If Palin ever has a serious shot at being President, I would hope the people who didn't vote this time around would be motivated enough by the terrifying prospect of her winning to go out and vote for another guy.
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Yeah pretty much all of them are incompetent hypocrites. It's a mess with our minority governments, since nothing really gets done with everybody bickering amongst themselves.
Minority governments? Do you mean parties? If so, at least your minority parties have a voice; every party that's not elephant- or donkey-related here is pretty much incapable of influencing politics. It's a shame, really. Why can't the Neo-Nazi party get a chance? :(
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The bill's been in action for a while now. Has it affected you? No. Exactly. The problem with the bill is not that it changes things. The problem with the bill is that it changed nothing. It was in fact a victory for the Republicans. If Obama just went with universal health care in the first place, this wouldn't have mattered.
Wait, doesn't the legislation outlaw denying people based on pre-existing conditions, or have the health insurance companies already found a loophole out of that? I'd call that a rather significant step forward, even if it's nowhere near universal health care.

Oh, and I personally support the idea of government-run health care or, as Kenny said, non-profit organization health care. There are some things where good ol' supply-and-demand capitalism is just a really, really bad idea.
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  #35  
Old 11-15-2010, 09:09 AM
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Default Re: Election Day 2010

http://www.democrats.com/no-700-bill...t-for-the-rich

Get to work, Americans.
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  #36  
Old 11-15-2010, 10:38 AM
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Default Re: Election Day 2010

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Originally Posted by Larvinator View Post
Minority governments? Do you mean parties? If so, at least your minority parties have a voice; every party that's not elephant- or donkey-related here is pretty much incapable of influencing politics. It's a shame, really. Why can't the Neo-Nazi party get a chance? :(
I don't know about the Neo-Nazis, but I as an Independent would like a voice. Not that I'll ever get one, what with being essentially forced to choose between two candidates I get absolutely no say in or else be wasting my vote.

Quote:
Wait, doesn't the legislation outlaw denying people based on pre-existing conditions, or have the health insurance companies already found a loophole out of that? I'd call that a rather significant step forward, even if it's nowhere near universal health care.
I'll clarify that point, the health care bill has done nothing for now except ban denying children based on pre-existing conditions. The health care companies have a four year grace period to make the reforms before the mandates kick in (so 2014). So really, the law has yet to have any actual effect, since of course the insurance companies are devoting their attention towards ways around the law rather than adjusting to comply.
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  #37  
Old 11-15-2010, 01:08 PM
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Default Re: Election Day 2010

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord View Post
Actually, it has affected me. My grandparents can no longer afford presciptions like they could before this bill passed, and its all the democrats fault.
Common tactic to just blame whoever's in power when it's convenient to do so. Secondarily, you missed entirely on whether or not confounding occurs. First, you don't know what prescriptions your grandparents actually have and what plans they are under. You also have no idea on what insurance they have and what changes were there. As far as I know, the only changes that occurred due to the bill passing is that medicare costs less for the elderly, and that insurance companies couldn't change their deductibles. A lot of possible explanations can occur for your parents, including but not limiting to: increased prescription costs (inflation), increased number of prescriptions, changes in prescriptions, changes in how prescriptions are handled, changes in your grandparents' income, etc. Literally a million things can be traced that have nothing to do with the bill itself (except for drug companies attempting to cash in as usual), and none of it is the Democrats' fault.

Even under the circumstance that it IS the bill that's the problem, you still have to understand that the people who were messing the bill and changed it into that monstrosity is none other than the Republicans. Yes, if you HAVE to blame someone, blame YOUR OWN PARTY.

Look, I'm not saying you deserve it. Nor am I saying that your grandparents are not having prescription problems. All I'm saying is that randomly pointing fingers at someone is stupid. Think for yourself, but more importantly, think.

Finally, I find it interesting that despite me proclaiming neutrality by the sheer fact that I'm criticizing both parties, you still manage to call me a liberal. I understand that you're probably some 10 year old kid who can't think, let alone think abstractly, but you have to understand that some of us here are like 20 and can actually think abstractly. Our opinions are worth at least as much as your parents' opinions are. Also, I'd like for your parents to watch a PBS documentary called "Critical Condition", which documents why the system needed to change in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Larvinator View Post
I have nothing to add, but you sound exactly like a political ad or the opening to a scary documentary. No relevance, I just thought it was pretty funny, especially read aloud in a dramatic voice.

Oh, wait, I do have something to add: hyperbole is bad. No single bill ruins a country, certainly not a health care reform bill.
Top: that's cuz that's exactly what the poor kid's been fed probably for the last 10 years of his 10 years worth of lifetime.

Bottom: Well none that can get past the senate anyway.

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Originally Posted by Larvinator View Post
I agree completely, though I honestly don't believe there's a huge problem. Economies, especially less regulated ones like the economy of the US, go through booms and recessions. That's just how the system works, s'far as I know.
No, the bubble was going to pop anyway. This is different from the ordinary boom/bust cycle in businesses in it that it's a strong inflation in money followed by a strong downward depression. Basically, it's a much larger increase in amplitude of the cycle. The Rich, however, cashed in on both the inflation and the recession for the most part.

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Originally Posted by Larvinator View Post
Yeah, that's pretty distressing. :/ Like I said, it seems to me that's more the younger voters not caring and the conservative voters getting all freaked out and presumably voting in droves. If Palin ever has a serious shot at being President, I would hope the people who didn't vote this time around would be motivated enough by the terrifying prospect of her winning to go out and vote for another guy.
Her opponents are Obama and Nader if she does run in 2012. Given it's Palin, we'll probably see a strong increase in Nader votage and Obama's strongest chance at being a 2-term president. Despite being the strongest chance, it is possible that voter apathy may come back to bite Obama in the butt.

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Originally Posted by Larvinator View Post
Minority governments? Do you mean parties? If so, at least your minority parties have a voice; every party that's not elephant- or donkey-related here is pretty much incapable of influencing politics. It's a shame, really. Why can't the Neo-Nazi party get a chance? :(
A minority government is a government to which the leading party does not hold a majority of the number of seats. This is obviously different from the US system, since US is a 2-party system. Our Prime Minster right now can't pass a bill without essentially kissing another party's butt...or in his case, bully another party into voting for him. We basically have 4 parties with any say, and 1 party that has at least some recognition: Conservatives, Liberals, NDP, Bloc Quebecois, and Green. Our last voter turnout was 28% (lowest in Canadian history), with Green being the big winner, if we define winner by having increased number of votes, as all other parties had a sharp decrease in the number of votes. Oh, nothing changed in the last election since the number of seats that actually changed hands numbered in the single digits.

It was so dumb that Rick Mercer (kinda like our own Colbert) made a short flick about how we keep getting Tory minorities.

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Originally Posted by Larvinator View Post
Wait, doesn't the legislation outlaw denying people based on pre-existing conditions, or have the health insurance companies already found a loophole out of that? I'd call that a rather significant step forward, even if it's nowhere near universal health care.
Not yet. Secondarily, what Lord K said. Secondarily, this 4-year grace period means that these companies will be fighting tooth and nail in the 2012 election for a Republican victory, so they can return to status quo. I can make this guarantee at least. In essence, 2012 will be a key election for the future of America. An Obama victory there would mean change for the better can occur (and perhaps Obama wouldn't be a pansy the next time around). A republican victory with any party leader would spell a return to 2008 status quo.

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Oh, and I personally support the idea of government-run health care or, as Kenny said, non-profit organization health care. There are some things where good ol' supply-and-demand capitalism is just a really, really bad idea.
That's because we view health care as a right. Some, like Dark Lord's parents and most of the top 2% of America, view it not as a right. It's unfortunate, since not everyone's working for Microsoft or Google, who can throw away a million dollars so an employee's premature baby can live.
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  #38  
Old 11-15-2010, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Lord Khajmer View Post
I don't know about the Neo-Nazis, but I as an Independent would like a voice. Not that I'll ever get one, what with being essentially forced to choose between two candidates I get absolutely no say in or else be wasting my vote.
Independents really CAN'T have a voice. Since they're well, independent, they aren't a party and therefore can't form a collective loud enough to have a voice. By nature, independents all have their own agendas and their own thoughts, meaning their voices turn into a rabble like that in a high school cafeteria, rather than a single unified voice. It's not a problem with the party system, it's just the inherent nature of a group of nonaffiliated people.

And I honestly don't think Palin has a chance in a presidential election. And if she does get elected, I will accept the fact that America's golden age is well and truly over and that its downfall is going to be the history of my lifetime.
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  #39  
Old 11-16-2010, 01:44 AM
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Default Re: Election Day 2010

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Ehh, that site is too far on the liberal end of the spectrum for me, honestly. I support not giving the rich more tax cuts, but the way they describe the dirty, thieving, evil rich is kind of overblown.

Nonetheless, +1 signature.
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Originally Posted by Lord Khajmer View Post
I'll clarify that point, the health care bill has done nothing for now except ban denying children based on pre-existing conditions. The health care companies have a four year grace period to make the reforms before the mandates kick in (so 2014). So really, the law has yet to have any actual effect, since of course the insurance companies are devoting their attention towards ways around the law rather than adjusting to comply.
Well, that's awfully distressing. The sites I popped over to seemed to imply all this super-great stuff was gonna happen right away; maybe I missed the part about the mandates. Well, that and the media likes to rave about the shocking health-care bill and its thunderous ramifications.

Of course, saying "This is a bill with minimal changes which will not take effect for another four years" wouldn't make a good story, would it?
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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
No, the bubble was going to pop anyway. This is different from the ordinary boom/bust cycle in businesses in it that it's a strong inflation in money followed by a strong downward depression. Basically, it's a much larger increase in amplitude of the cycle. The Rich, however, cashed in on both the inflation and the recession for the most part.
First of all, heavily amused by typing "The Rich" capitalized like it's an evil organization. Assuming that wasn't a typo, anyway.

Kenny, can I ask you where you get all your information from? It's pretty remarkable just how much you know about all these subjects; I'd really like to be informed on these things but I'm not really sure where I can get information from or even how to sort legit stuff from all the other flawed/opinionated stuff out there.
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Her opponents are Obama and Nader if she does run in 2012. Given it's Palin, we'll probably see a strong increase in Nader votage and Obama's strongest chance at being a 2-term president. Despite being the strongest chance, it is possible that voter apathy may come back to bite Obama in the butt.
No, no, I really do believe that Palin would shoot herself in the foot with how severely polarizing she is. Seriously, her only real base is in the far-right Tea Party; anyone even remotely moderate hates her.

Honestly, I have never even understood the appeal of Sarah Palin. Glenn Beck is an incredible communicator and, I suppose, actor (seriously, watch his show, it's pretty amazing what he can do with a chalkboard and some emotion), Limbaugh is a skilled debater...what does Palin have? People call her charismatic or something, but I just want to turn off my TV every time I hear her shrill harpy cry of "You betcha!"
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Our last voter turnout was 28% (lowest in Canadian history)
Thanks for the explanation. That statistic is extremely depressing, gotta say.
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That's because we view health care as a right. Some, like Dark Lord's parents and most of the top 2% of America, view it not as a right. It's unfortunate, since not everyone's working for Microsoft or Google, who can throw away a million dollars so an employee's premature baby can live.
I'm not so sure that's it; I think it owes more the the perplexing attitude many Republicans hold towards the government, their knee-jerk hiss and furious rallying against the government sticking its grubby fingers in anything, even if it's something best left to the government.
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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
Independents really CAN'T have a voice. Since they're well, independent, they aren't a party and therefore can't form a collective loud enough to have a voice. By nature, independents all have their own agendas and their own thoughts, meaning their voices turn into a rabble like that in a high school cafeteria, rather than a single unified voice. It's not a problem with the party system, it's just the inherent nature of a group of nonaffiliated people.
Hey, now, don't be downplaying what went down at DC.
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  #40  
Old 11-16-2010, 08:02 PM
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Default Re: Election Day 2010

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
Common tactic to just blame whoever's in power when it's convenient to do so. Secondarily, you missed entirely on whether or not confounding occurs. First, you don't know what prescriptions your grandparents actually have and what plans they are under. You also have no idea on what insurance they have and what changes were there. As far as I know, the only changes that occurred due to the bill passing is that medicare costs less for the elderly, and that insurance companies couldn't change their deductibles. A lot of possible explanations can occur for your parents, including but not limiting to: increased prescription costs (inflation), increased number of prescriptions, changes in prescriptions, changes in how prescriptions are handled, changes in your grandparents' income, etc. Literally a million things can be traced that have nothing to do with the bill itself (except for drug companies attempting to cash in as usual), and none of it is the Democrats' fault.
Actually Kenny the price of prescriptions did rise in the US slightly after the bill was passed, and they're like to rise again after the bill takes effect. But I can explain why that is and why it's not actually the fault of the bill, but the system. And here I get to play Kenny by explaining something I know more about than the person who raised the complaint.

It used to be that medical care wasn't actually that expensive. Sure, advances in medical care increased the expense, but in a truly free market economy things really don't get more expensive than the people can afford. People on the right like to point to tort fraud and the FDA for rising medical costs, and while they have a point on the former (the latter is somewhat stupid as the medications the FDA reject can't be competitively viable, as they have this tendency to towards lawsuit inducing side effects), one of the major culprits is the practice of purchasing prescription drugs under health insurance policies. Observe the following train of logic.

1. Doctor prescribes medicine to patient.
2. Patient goes back to doctor after finding out how much the most effective drug costs and says "Doc, I can't afford that, is there something that costs less?" and the doctor prescribes them something they can actually afford. Alternatively, if it's completely unnecessary medication such as, say, painkillers for a mild ache post-op, then the patient just never fills out the presciption.
3. In order to remain competitive in the extremely large middle- and working-class sector, drug companies lower costs, causing a net increase in profit as far more people buy their drugs.
4. Everybody's happy.

Completely reasonable in a free market economy. After all, it's pretty much the basic tenant: competition leads to lower prices, the most competitive people win. But then people got the idea to buy drugs under their insurance plans. After all, if I buy it with my insurance, then I what am I paying? Just like with loans, we in America find ways to live beyond our means based on essentially no understanding of concept "you buy now, pay later, but you're going to have to pay later, end of discussion." And so the logic progresses as follows.

1. Doctor prescribes medication
2. Because they can't afford it on their own dime, the patient buys the medication under their insurance plan.
3. Cheaper medications, now losing money because everyone's able to afford the more expensive ones, raise their prices, creating more of a burden on people who need to buy that medication specifically, causing more people to buy it under their insurance plans.
4. One of the finer points of capitalism, i.e. the drive to make the most profit you possibly can, kicks in as the drug companies realize that they no longer have to worry about being financially competitive and raise prices even higher.
5. More and more people have to buy medication under their insurance policies, allowing them to raise prices even more as they have less people who aren't doing so to cater to.
Final result: Seriously jacked up insurance premiums to cover all these prescription drug costs.

And where does the insurance bill fit into this? The answer is the mandate. Every person in America will be required by law to have health insurance. Every person in America will be purchasing their drugs they're prescribed regardless of cost, which inevitably be either the one that works best or the one that pays the hospital. There will be literally no one left not buying their medications under their insurance plans. And economic competition will be completely gone from the prescription drug market. Health insurance+drugs=virtual monopoly.

So Dark Lord, if you're so ready to blame your grandparents' rising prescription costs on the effects of the bill, I think you should be looking at the source of the problem, the common theme in American economic problems: living beyond our means.

Damn Kenny, no wonder you hang around us inferior minds so much, that was freaking fun.

Quote:
Finally, I find it interesting that despite me proclaiming neutrality by the sheer fact that I'm criticizing both parties, you still manage to call me a liberal. I understand that you're probably some 10 year old kid who can't think, let alone think abstractly, but you have to understand that some of us here are like 20 and can actually think abstractly.
I always find that hilarious too. You try so hard to stay neutral, but the moment you make one partisan remark, even if it's then mirrored by an equally partisan remark the other way, you're suddenly a liberal/conservative.

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
Independents really CAN'T have a voice. Since they're well, independent, they aren't a party and therefore can't form a collective loud enough to have a voice. By nature, independents all have their own agendas and their own thoughts, meaning their voices turn into a rabble like that in a high school cafeteria, rather than a single unified voice. It's not a problem with the party system, it's just the inherent nature of a group of nonaffiliated people.
I think I gave the wrong impression by saying it was me as an Independent. I meant that I'm an Independent and I want a voice. Obviously I don't want us to collectively have a voice, that would defeat the purpose of being unaffiliated. I want my personal voice heard. I also want other independents and third party folks to be heard. Moderates within the parties have no excuse, they get to vote in primaries, but I get no personal say in who I'm allowed to vote for because Maryland does not have a system where we can. Furthermore, the distinct lack of open primaries in general (meaning everyone can vote in any primary, regardless of party affiliation) means that Democrats don't get any say in what they're option other than the Democrat candidate is, and the same to the Republicans. I think we can credit party-line voting to that rather than to any inherent ideological difference.

Quote:
And I honestly don't think Palin has a chance in a presidential election. And if she does get elected, I will accept the fact that America's golden age is well and truly over and that its downfall is going to be the history of my lifetime.
She can't be. There's too much opposition within her own party, I honestly believe that if she was nominated a combination of voter apathy from Republicans who don't want either her or Obama and moderate Republicans saying "screw it, I'm not taking the chance" and voting for Obama would cause her to lose.

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Originally Posted by Larvinator View Post
No, no, I really do believe that Palin would shoot herself in the foot with how severely polarizing she is. Seriously, her only real base is in the far-right Tea Party; anyone even remotely moderate hates her.

Honestly, I have never even understood the appeal of Sarah Palin. Glenn Beck is an incredible communicator and, I suppose, actor (seriously, watch his show, it's pretty amazing what he can do with a chalkboard and some emotion), Limbaugh is a skilled debater...what does Palin have? People call her charismatic or something, but I just want to turn off my TV every time I hear her shrill harpy cry of "You betcha!"
She doesn't even have a shot in the primaries imo. If I had to bet on who was going to win the Republican primary I'd put my money on Ron Paul, but even that's a toss-up. It really depends on how the Tea Party candidates handle themselves in the next year, and how long it takes them to make the Republican party establishment as a whole remember that America is a center-right nation, not a far-right one.

That was the voices of people who want civility in government, not the voices of the unaffiliated. The entire point of what Lus was saying was Independents speak with a large, mixed bag of voices and messages. The Rally was a large group of people with one message speaking with one voice.

Edit: Oh right, in my lecture on drug prices and insurance I forgot that I came here with a new topic for discussion, the only possibly silver lining in my eyes to so many Tea Party conservatives being elected and essentially taking over the House: the earmark moratorium. Republicans in the House are very likely to end all earmark spending for some length of time (I don't think they've given an exact length for the moratorium they want to propose). For those unfamiliar, earmarks are additions put into bills allocating money to projects in a politician's home state in order to garner their support. It's a long standing practice, about a century and a half old now I believe, and while it's a good idea in practice-money to a state's infrastructure, getting support to move things through that otherwise wouldn't etc.-abuse of it has led to it being a symbol of government waste, and probably for good reason. Hence, Tea Party Republicans are going to end the practice in the House on literally the first the first bill that goes through-as an amendment, not as an actual bill, which is either very ironic or very symbolic-and Republicans are beginning to pledge support for it as a show of good faith towards restoring the fiscal conservatism that the GOP used to be known for. Discuss :3
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