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  #1  
Old 12-09-2010, 03:32 AM
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Default Wikileaks

Wikileaks has been under tremendous media fire mainly by politicians as of late. Do you agree or disagree with their assertions? At which point is this "information warfare" and stops being simply media? How does this differ from say China blocking all information about the situation in Tibet to the Chinese people during the Tibet incident not too long ago?

At the moment, the founder of Wikileaks is basically wanted in America. Is he guilty of being a terrorist, or is he simply a scapegoat to the destruction of journalistic integrity?
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  #2  
Old 12-09-2010, 05:04 AM
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Default Re: Wikileaks

Honestly I think that politicians must hate him for revealing information they were hiding from the public. Some of it seems like what US citizens/the world deserve to know, though, especially for US citizens, since we vote whoever leads us into their positions, and any information given or hidden can twist the vote. I'm not really sure what else to say about it.
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  #3  
Old 12-09-2010, 03:28 PM
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Default Re: Wikileaks

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Originally Posted by Hoshika View Post
Honestly I think that politicians must hate him for revealing information they were hiding from the public. Some of it seems like what US citizens/the world deserve to know, though, especially for US citizens, since we vote whoever leads us into their positions, and any information given or hidden can twist the vote. I'm not really sure what else to say about it.
As it stands, it is a crime (at least in the US) for Wikileaks to do what they are doing, regardless of whether or not the US citizens should know. I find this interesting, since it's like there isn't a legal method for things like this to surface in a normal and natural manner. If that is the case, then should the government be hiding all of these secrets?

Secondarily, how far should this go? I mean, we should be under no illusion that politicians are all crooks trying to steal from the middle class to serve the shadowy top 2% overlords. How much of that corruption should be revealed?
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  #4  
Old 12-12-2010, 03:23 PM
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Default Re: Wikileaks

The founder of Wikileaks is wanted for rape and molestation in Europe. Anyway, the site's action is not free speech, they were releasing classified documents. Free speech is when you are able to speak against your government, not try to destroy it, which is called treason. Until the magical red letters stating the words: "Confidential" are taken off of the folder, it is not for public eyes.

Let me ask you this. Do you think the CIA ever tells the truth? Do you think the KGB ever told or tells the truth? Do you think that an average citizen will have a better life knowing what the CIA and the KGB are doing? No, probably not. Honestly, I think our governments should have a certain amount of privacy, as any private citizen would like their amount of privacy. The new mentality today tends to make people think that the government is doing something dangerous behind our backs. Which, if you ask me is quite paranoid. I mean, you were born in this country, you live in this country, and the people in the government? The same. Do you love your country? Do you love the ability to talk freely about this subject?
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  #5  
Old 12-12-2010, 08:37 PM
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Default Re: Wikileaks

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Originally Posted by Ender the Xenocide View Post
The new mentality today tends to make people think that the government is doing something dangerous behind our backs. Which, if you ask me is quite paranoid.
Well there's already this link on the main page of Wikileaks...
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I suffer from some desease where I just don't feel like catching a pokemon unless it's rare, which ends in me never catching com mons.

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Haagen-Daz is an ice cream company, dumbass.

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  #6  
Old 12-12-2010, 08:47 PM
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Default Re: Wikileaks

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Originally Posted by Ender the Xenocide View Post
The founder of Wikileaks is wanted for rape and molestation in Europe. Anyway, the site's action is not free speech, they were releasing classified documents. Free speech is when you are able to speak against your government, not try to destroy it, which is called treason. Until the magical red letters stating the words: "Confidential" are taken off of the folder, it is not for public eyes.

Let me ask you this. Do you think the CIA ever tells the truth? Do you think the KGB ever told or tells the truth? Do you think that an average citizen will have a better life knowing what the CIA and the KGB are doing? No, probably not. Honestly, I think our governments should have a certain amount of privacy, as any private citizen would like their amount of privacy. The new mentality today tends to make people think that the government is doing something dangerous behind our backs. Which, if you ask me is quite paranoid. I mean, you were born in this country, you live in this country, and the people in the government? The same. Do you love your country? Do you love the ability to talk freely about this subject?
Do you love your planet and fellow human being? There's no reason for the manipulative ways of the US government. The world should be working towards peace, and that's obviously not an interest in the capitalist system as several of the leaks have pointed out.

I think the citizens of the US should take their heads out of their asses and demand true change instead of their pathetic blind consumerism.

Also Assange is an Australian citizen, and if he's extradited to the US, it's nothing more that the US continuing to break international law.

The Cold War never ended, and this is only the beginning. The flawed system will lose eventually, and I can only hope for that day to come soon. And shame on anyone who believes the lies and propaganda of the US government. I suggest you read on the principles of Communism/Socialism. How can a system that puts human compassion and sharing above all else be wrong? Right, because the system that puts money above all else said so. Do you enjoy being a slave to money?
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  #7  
Old 12-12-2010, 08:56 PM
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Default Re: Wikileaks

Riddle me this:

How can it be treason if the accused isn't a citizen of the victimized nation? Then again, it could be construed as espionage and by that standard a criminal act.

When a thief steals something and fences it off, both the thief and the fencer are culpabel. So by that standard, Wikileaks is guilty. However, when a whistleblower steals information and gives it to the press; while the whistleblower may be charged with criminal activity, the general press is not. So the problem arises in the definition of Wikileaks being a journalisme station or it being a plain old fence.

Also, Assange is wanted in Sweden. Sweden needs to get him extradited out of Britain. Britain can't extradite him to the US at the moment. Sweden can't extradite him to the US, cause Swedish law would see him as a political criminal and these kind of criminals are exempted from extradition.

And I find it funny how a nation/government claiming to be 'for the people, by the people and of the people', a nation/government frowning on the press censorship in Russia, China and countries like that, a nation/government that is - maybe undeserving - the leading example of the Western civilization, pressures companies into cutting ties with Wikileaks without even using fundamental principels of the Separation of powers ideology they adhere so closely to.
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  #8  
Old 12-12-2010, 10:20 PM
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Default Re: Wikileaks

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Originally Posted by Temporal Snake View Post
The Cold War never ended, and this is only the beginning. The flawed system will lose eventually, and I can only hope for that day to come soon. And shame on anyone who believes the lies and propaganda of the US government. I suggest you read on the principles of Communism/Socialism. How can a system that puts human compassion and sharing above all else be wrong? Right, because the system that puts money above all else said so. Do you enjoy being a slave to money?


Oh wait, you were serious.



Communism is equality in misery. When everything is shared, no one has anything. Communism might work for ants and bees, but not people.

As for leaking classified documents, there's a difference between "Freedom of Speech" and "Freedom to do whatever the hell I want." I don't believe Wikileaks has done anything worthy of being called journalism. The government has as much a right to keep its own secrets as any other person or organization, especially when releasing the secrets could potentially harm its country or other countries. What would have happened had Wikileaks been around in the 1940s and released information about the Manhattan Project to the world? It's not comparable to China blocking information about Tibet. It is reasonable for a government to keep private its private operations. It is not reasonable for a government to block access to information about what it's doing to its populace.
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  #9  
Old 12-13-2010, 03:50 PM
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Default Re: Wikileaks

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Originally Posted by Temporal Snake View Post
Do you love your planet and fellow human being? There's no reason for the manipulative ways of the US government. The world should be working towards peace, and that's obviously not an interest in the capitalist system as several of the leaks have pointed out.

I think the citizens of the US should take their heads out of their asses and demand true change instead of their pathetic blind consumerism.

Also Assange is an Australian citizen, and if he's extradited to the US, it's nothing more that the US continuing to break international law.

The Cold War never ended, and this is only the beginning. The flawed system will lose eventually, and I can only hope for that day to come soon. And shame on anyone who believes the lies and propaganda of the US government. I suggest you read on the principles of Communism/Socialism. How can a system that puts human compassion and sharing above all else be wrong? Right, because the system that puts money above all else said so. Do you enjoy being a slave to money?
Did I ask for sarcasm, no I did not.

I never said the Cold War ended, I just said the Soviet Union, a communist regime I may add, failed.

And do you realize that Communism has no human rights or moral standings? Have you ever seen pictures of the poor souls from the gulags. Have you ever spoken to a person who lived in the Communist states? I have, from Czechoslovakia to Russia itself. Their stories never put any emphasis on human morals. And, since Communism is a branch of Socialism, I'd say that Socialism is just as flawed economically than Capitalism is.

And why do you think that the Capitalist idea is so horrible. Why? Because you have to work for a living, because you have to be a good worker to keep your job, because you don't get sweet little welfare checks to pay for your every need. Listen, Capitalism is not a form of government, which so many people fail to understand. Capitalism is a form of economics, sort of like a free-trade-market. The Socialist economic system does not create wealth, it spreads it out. Want to know why many European countries are going bankrupt? Because the Socialist governments with their Socialist economies cannot support all the people that are OUT of work and need their nice little checks.

You think that you are not a "slave" to money? Do you realize that the very thing you are on now, you are most-likely paying for? Every action you do is influenced by money no matter what form of economy you have.

I could go on and on about the flaws of both Capitalism and Socialism, but that would not sway you because it seems you are set in your ways. Both Socialism and Capitalism share major flaws that can lead to terrible outcomes. No one ever said that Capitalism is perfect, but it seems that you think that your precious Socialism is prefect, which is a flawed view.

Honestly, there is no morality in politics and nation/international desires so stop believing there is. America is willing to screw small little countries to make cash and cause little wars all throughout the globe to fund their country. Russia did the same thing, so did Germany, so is China, so is Korea, so is most of north Africa. Face it, most governments are just of guilty of crap as the U.S are. And before you go on and on about how patriotic and blind I am, I am not a born U.S citizen.
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  #10  
Old 12-16-2010, 08:49 PM
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Default Re: Wikileaks

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Originally Posted by Ender the Xenocide View Post
Did I ask for sarcasm, no I did not.

I never said the Cold War ended, I just said the Soviet Union, a communist regime I may add, failed.

And do you realize that Communism has no human rights or moral standings? Have you ever seen pictures of the poor souls from the gulags. Have you ever spoken to a person who lived in the Communist states? I have, from Czechoslovakia to Russia itself. Their stories never put any emphasis on human morals. And, since Communism is a branch of Socialism, I'd say that Socialism is just as flawed economically than Capitalism is.

And why do you think that the Capitalist idea is so horrible. Why? Because you have to work for a living, because you have to be a good worker to keep your job, because you don't get sweet little welfare checks to pay for your every need. Listen, Capitalism is not a form of government, which so many people fail to understand. Capitalism is a form of economics, sort of like a free-trade-market. The Socialist economic system does not create wealth, it spreads it out. Want to know why many European countries are going bankrupt? Because the Socialist governments with their Socialist economies cannot support all the people that are OUT of work and need their nice little checks.

You think that you are not a "slave" to money? Do you realize that the very thing you are on now, you are most-likely paying for? Every action you do is influenced by money no matter what form of economy you have.

I could go on and on about the flaws of both Capitalism and Socialism, but that would not sway you because it seems you are set in your ways. Both Socialism and Capitalism share major flaws that can lead to terrible outcomes. No one ever said that Capitalism is perfect, but it seems that you think that your precious Socialism is prefect, which is a flawed view.

Honestly, there is no morality in politics and nation/international desires so stop believing there is. America is willing to screw small little countries to make cash and cause little wars all throughout the globe to fund their country. Russia did the same thing, so did Germany, so is China, so is Korea, so is most of north Africa. Face it, most governments are just of guilty of crap as the U.S are. And before you go on and on about how patriotic and blind I am, I am not a born U.S citizen.
Oh my, someone needs to educate themselves. I suggest you start reading books on philosophy and political ideology and learning what Communism actually is. First of all, attacking someone's political view is like attacking their religion, and I can draw many parallels between my political views and my spiritual ones, so I suggest you don't tread on thin ice. Second of all, Capitalism doesn't work, period. It's destroying the planet, the economy it makes is clearly failing pathetically, and the part people are starting to see are right-wing fascists like the Tea Party emerging.

I have no problem with working for a living, what do you assume I am? Some lazy stoner? No, my family is a hard-working Slavic family. Three of my grandparents are from the Soviet Union. Oddly enough, I've never heard them complain about Communism. Even my grandmother who is ultra-Christian, never said anything bad about Communism like the right-wing Christians in America do.

And I think you need to understand the premises of Communism before you make silly comments. Money wouldn't matter in a true Communist society. It's like a job, and your benefits are everything. It's a world community, everyone works for everyone. It's tough to understand when you've only been exposed to Capitalism (which derives from Feudalism, whereas Communism is a concept that's existed forever). But it's fine, because the good part of humanity will always triumph over the evil part (greed). Society changes, and inevitably will become Communist some day as human knowledge expands (especially as we learn of oneness in existence). The universe tends to balance things out, and I think it's rather selfish of humans to think of themselves as the most important thing in existence.

Oh yeah, Communism isn't a type of government either.

Anyways, this has nothing to do with WikiLeaks, so make a thread about the evil of Communism if you feel the need to reply (which I suggest you don't until you are at peace with the universe and stop caring about your silly material possessions).
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  #11  
Old 12-16-2010, 10:21 PM
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Default Re: Wikileaks

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Originally Posted by Ender the Xenocide View Post
Did I ask for sarcasm, no I did not.

I never said the Cold War ended, I just said the Soviet Union, a communist regime I may add, failed.

And do you realize that Communism has no human rights or moral standings? Have you ever seen pictures of the poor souls from the gulags. Have you ever spoken to a person who lived in the Communist states? I have, from Czechoslovakia to Russia itself. Their stories never put any emphasis on human morals. And, since Communism is a branch of Socialism, I'd say that Socialism is just as flawed economically than Capitalism is.

And why do you think that the Capitalist idea is so horrible. Why? Because you have to work for a living, because you have to be a good worker to keep your job, because you don't get sweet little welfare checks to pay for your every need. Listen, Capitalism is not a form of government, which so many people fail to understand. Capitalism is a form of economics, sort of like a free-trade-market. The Socialist economic system does not create wealth, it spreads it out. Want to know why many European countries are going bankrupt? Because the Socialist governments with their Socialist economies cannot support all the people that are OUT of work and need their nice little checks.

You think that you are not a "slave" to money? Do you realize that the very thing you are on now, you are most-likely paying for? Every action you do is influenced by money no matter what form of economy you have.

I could go on and on about the flaws of both Capitalism and Socialism, but that would not sway you because it seems you are set in your ways. Both Socialism and Capitalism share major flaws that can lead to terrible outcomes. No one ever said that Capitalism is perfect, but it seems that you think that your precious Socialism is prefect, which is a flawed view.

Honestly, there is no morality in politics and nation/international desires so stop believing there is. America is willing to screw small little countries to make cash and cause little wars all throughout the globe to fund their country. Russia did the same thing, so did Germany, so is China, so is Korea, so is most of north Africa. Face it, most governments are just of guilty of crap as the U.S are. And before you go on and on about how patriotic and blind I am, I am not a born U.S citizen.
You have absolutely zero knowledge of both international politics and socioeconomics. Quite frankly, almost every single thing you said there was either wrong, and obvious lie, or sad attempts at debate. You're making blind assumptions and you have no form of evidence for anything you're arguing.

I could spend the rest of my night delineating the many fallacies of what you just said. I'm begging you, for the good of everyone, verify your information and provide some sort of evidence to support your already wild notions.
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  #12  
Old 12-16-2010, 10:25 PM
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Default Re: Wikileaks

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Originally Posted by Temporal Snake View Post
Oh my, someone needs to educate themselves. I suggest you start reading books on philosophy and political ideology and learning what Communism actually is.
I suggest you do the above, and also read a book about history. Out of every 5 words you say, 4 are complete rubbish.
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  #13  
Old 12-17-2010, 02:19 AM
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Default Re: Wikileaks

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
I suggest you do the above, and also read a book about history. Out of every 5 words you say, 4 are complete rubbish.
Funny, I was just thinking that about you...
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Old 12-17-2010, 03:04 AM
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Default Re: Wikileaks

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post


Oh wait, you were serious.



Communism is equality in misery. When everything is shared, no one has anything. Communism might work for ants and bees, but not people.

As for leaking classified documents, there's a difference between "Freedom of Speech" and "Freedom to do whatever the hell I want." I don't believe Wikileaks has done anything worthy of being called journalism. The government has as much a right to keep its own secrets as any other person or organization, especially when releasing the secrets could potentially harm its country or other countries. What would have happened had Wikileaks been around in the 1940s and released information about the Manhattan Project to the world? It's not comparable to China blocking information about Tibet. It is reasonable for a government to keep private its private operations. It is not reasonable for a government to block access to information about what it's doing to its populace.
So what your saying basically is that it's okay for the government to keep secrets from it's citizens about things that also concerns it citizens and their social and economic welfare. Basically what you don't know can''t hurt you right?
That is what your saying, cause that's what it sounds like...
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  #15  
Old 12-17-2010, 05:42 PM
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Default Re: Wikileaks

I was one of the anons, and voted for him as Time's person of the year.
I'm a keen supporter.

EDIT: I should point out, we control the government, we elect them. they don't control us.
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