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Pokemon: Anime/Movies/Manga Talk about the Pokemon anime, movies and manga. NOTE: It's possible that there may be discussions in here that may spoil something for you if you haven't seen that episode/movie/manga before. Please use the spoiler code when appropriate.


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  #1  
Old 08-15-2011, 07:15 PM
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Default Am I the only one that noticed the ammount of flaws in the original sagas??

Normally when I'm on the internet, I see people praising Kanto and Johto. But actually I noticed quite an ammount of flaws in the previously said sagas that the fans would NEVER forgive if that happened in the newer ones even though some of them might have actually happened. Here's a couple of ones:

Kanto:

*Pity Badges.
*Lack of a full team(Everything that Ash got in that certain spot in his team would get either Oak'd or released.).
*Horribly unbalanced pacing(Did you notice that things started getting much slower after the 6th gym?).


Johto:

*Filler-fest.
*Lack of evolutions. A SEVERE one.
*Ash's old pokemon got more focus than the new ones.


Then asked myself two questions. Do the Advanced/DP/BW sagas deserve all the hate they get? And do the older sagas deserve all the prasing they get?

Discuss.
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  #2  
Old 08-15-2011, 07:26 PM
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Default Re: Am I the only one that noticed the ammount of flaws in the original sagas??

What do you mean that a pity badge and lack of a full team are flaws? For over half my game I had only 4 Pokemon on Platinum. And, just to tell you, the only reason the games don't offer pity badges is because the AI does not tell the characters how to respond or act to different situations. Literally every event outside of battle is scripted, and even then it is questionable on whether or not you have full control or not.

As for Johto. You will realize that it is considered the last good series of Pokemon, right? After that, people started to catch on to how stupid it was. At least they managed to have good and compelling characters that everybody liked, but then they split them all up.

The problem with the past 4 series is that they have all, literally, been filler-fests with unbearable dubbing and characters, repetitive action, and a predictable plot. That was something that was not there in the first series, the Orange Islands were unique, and Johto was the first to follow that pattern, so generically, it was okay.
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Old 08-15-2011, 08:53 PM
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Default Re: Am I the only one that noticed the ammount of flaws in the original sagas??

I completely agree with you here that the there are a lot of flaws in the first two sagas.

You don't see Ash getting badges for being a 'good guy' anymore in the Hoenn, Sinnoh and Unova (so far) arc. There are no more 'pity badges'. Ash now has to earn all of his badges though tough battles that he has to win. The last time Ash got a 'pity badge' was from Pryce who was winning his match but decided to throw the match due to being 'tired'. Try to remember that he not only had type advantage but years of experience. The 'pity badge' thing has long been discarded. It is the only complaint I see from the older/former fans of the anime.

Also yes, the Kanto and Johto arc has horrible pacing. The writers pounded though the early gyms and then they realized that the had to slow down which lead to filler among filler. There is a reason why the second series of Johto is called 'Johto Freakin Journeys' for a reason.

Also the animation was cheaply done. Watch the episode where Charmelon evolves/Attach of the Prehistoric Pokemon. The scene where Brook and Misty were moving the rocks that covering the hole. You can clearly see that they were picking up the same rock over and over again. The VERY same rock.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
What do you mean that a pity badge and lack of a full team are flaws? For over half my game I had only 4 Pokemon on Platinum. And, just to tell you, the only reason the games don't offer pity badges is because the AI does not tell the characters how to respond or act to different situations. Literally every event outside of battle is scripted, and even then it is questionable on whether or not you have full control or not.

As for Johto. You will realize that it is considered the last good series of Pokemon, right? After that, people started to catch on to how stupid it was. At least they managed to have good and compelling characters that everybody liked, but then they split them all up.

The problem with the past 4 series is that they have all, literally, been filler-fests with unbearable dubbing and characters, repetitive action, and a predictable plot. That was something that was not there in the first series, the Orange Islands were unique, and Johto was the first to follow that pattern, so generically, it was okay.

People grew up. That what happen. They realize that Pokemon was an anime aimed at young kids. Not teens who are going on to adulthood.

The whole 'dubbing' thing is only an excuse that people use to stop watching the series. I personally think that the dubbing got better when the dub left the hands of 4Kids and went into tPCI. First off the script was much more kept as is minus Team Rocket. You also had the removal of 'flamboyant' James. Something that I was glad to see gone.

I don't think Johto was horrible but I don't think it is the best. It was the writers first attempt in getting better. They saw that Misty wasn't doing anything to help the group nor did she had anything else to add on to the story. I like Misty but I understood why she had to leave. All she was doing was a person holding Togepi and maybe challenging Ash every so often but that was it. Even her coaching was pointless as we saw that Ash was able to hold his own in a battle without the help of Brook and Misty on the sidelines holding his hands. Then Johto is imfamous for having many fillers though the second part of the series. I don't even remember what they called it but I know I call it, "Johto Freakin Journeys' for a reason. Heck, I haven't even seen all those episodes because they are all filler.

The only good thing that came out of Johto was the fact that the writers were starting to make good use from the source material. They were using events from the games and attempting to adopt them within the anime storyline. Case in point was the 'Lake of Rage' arc. Prior to that they never really attempted to do anything much involving the games outside of gyms and locations. We even got the introduction of the Champion.

Filler is something that all series have. The only things that I don't count as filler in Pokemon are Gym and Contest battles. Still it can be enjoyable such as seeing the members of the league's E4s or Champions. Only in filler can the writers flesh out the Pokemon world and the structure of the society. Prior to Hoenn all we knew was that the E4 tend to be at certain places training or doing something yet we never got a hint that they do interact with each other. Sinnoh Saga gave us the idea that they do interact with each other and introduce the Champion League where people go to challenge the E4 to official matches in order to challenge the Champion of said league.

The plot and story writing greatly improved after Johto. The writers kept learning from their past experience and put that into the future story arcs. In Hoenn we saw more things from the games being adopted such as villains, Team Aqua and Team Magma. They improved this even more in Sinnoh and even found a way to include the trio (Ash, Brook and Dawn) in the story via the Lake Trio. Something that was predictable only half way though the Saga but still impressive that they were able to pull it off. Heck, they even made the Rocket Trio important with the Team Galactic subplot during the run and after since because of their actions within that subplot it led them to what they are doing into the next saga.

Wish I can say the same with BW about learning seeing that they have reverted back to their antics during Kanto/Johto writing but I wish them best wishes in pulling off something decent.
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Last edited by Charizard Michelle; 08-15-2011 at 09:20 PM.
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  #4  
Old 08-16-2011, 12:41 AM
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Default Re: Am I the only one that noticed the ammount of flaws in the original sagas??

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Originally Posted by Charizard Michelle View Post
[INDENT][COLOR="Purple"]



People grew up. That what happen. They realize that Pokemon was an anime aimed at young kids. Not teens who are going on to adulthood.

The whole 'dubbing' thing is only an excuse that people use to stop watching the series. I personally think that the dubbing got better when the dub left the hands of 4Kids and went into tPCI. First off the script was much more kept as is minus Team Rocket. You also had the removal of 'flamboyant' James. Something that I was glad to see gone.

I don't think Johto was horrible but I don't think it is the best. It was the writers first attempt in getting better. They saw that Misty wasn't doing anything to help the group nor did she had anything else to add on to the story. I like Misty but I understood why she had to leave. All she was doing was a person holding Togepi and maybe challenging Ash every so often but that was it. Even her coaching was pointless as we saw that Ash was able to hold his own in a battle without the help of Brook and Misty on the sidelines holding his hands. Then Johto is imfamous for having many fillers though the second part of the series. I don't even remember what they called it but I know I call it, "Johto Freakin Journeys' for a reason. Heck, I haven't even seen all those episodes because they are all filler.

The only good thing that came out of Johto was the fact that the writers were starting to make good use from the source material. They were using events from the games and attempting to adopt them within the anime storyline. Case in point was the 'Lake of Rage' arc. Prior to that they never really attempted to do anything much involving the games outside of gyms and locations. We even got the introduction of the Champion.

Filler is something that all series have. The only things that I don't count as filler in Pokemon are Gym and Contest battles. Still it can be enjoyable such as seeing the members of the league's E4s or Champions. Only in filler can the writers flesh out the Pokemon world and the structure of the society. Prior to Hoenn all we knew was that the E4 tend to be at certain places training or doing something yet we never got a hint that they do interact with each other. Sinnoh Saga gave us the idea that they do interact with each other and introduce the Champion League where people go to challenge the E4 to official matches in order to challenge the Champion of said league.

The plot and story writing greatly improved after Johto. The writers kept learning from their past experience and put that into the future story arcs. In Hoenn we saw more things from the games being adopted such as villains, Team Aqua and Team Magma. They improved this even more in Sinnoh and even found a way to include the trio (Ash, Brook and Dawn) in the story via the Lake Trio. Something that was predictable only half way though the Saga but still impressive that they were able to pull it off. Heck, they even made the Rocket Trio important with the Team Galactic subplot during the run and after since because of their actions within that subplot it led them to what they are doing into the next saga.

Wish I can say the same with BW about learning seeing that they have reverted back to their antics during Kanto/Johto writing but I wish them best wishes in pulling off something decent.
Then almost literally the entire fan base grew up.

The plots got better? What are you talking about? I watched Sinnoh, the Galactic Arc, all of that. It was just plain awful. And the main overlying story has been the same shtick for the entire time. Ash, get 8 gym badges after some "intense" battles. May/Dawn, go get some ribbons and cry when you don't get what you want. Brock, be there for some mild comedic relief and go gaga for the girls.

And the modern Black and White series? Think the whole story with Team Rocket is good, right? They are finally evil like they should be? Don't get your hopes up. They go back right to there stupidity and antics.

Yes, all series have fillers, some do it better than others though.
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Old 08-16-2011, 04:05 AM
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Default Re: Am I the only one that noticed the ammount of flaws in the original sagas??

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
Then almost literally the entire fan base grew up.

The plots got better? What are you talking about? I watched Sinnoh, the Galactic Arc, all of that. It was just plain awful. And the main overlying story has been the same shtick for the entire time. Ash, get 8 gym badges after some "intense" battles. May/Dawn, go get some ribbons and cry when you don't get what you want. Brock, be there for some mild comedic relief and go gaga for the girls.

And the modern Black and White series? Think the whole story with Team Rocket is good, right? They are finally evil like they should be? Don't get your hopes up. They go back right to there stupidity and antics.

Yes, all series have fillers, some do it better than others though.
Apparently not the whole fanbase since I am still watching. Also it seems like the fanbase is a revolving door seeing that we have new fans enjoying the show.

If you want to be like that then look at Jotho. It was basically the same thing as Kanto minus Contests, a forgotten subplot (looking at your GS Ball) and a character that did nothing but hold a baby pokemon in her arms. At the end of the day the anime is only an adaptation of the video games and he only difference in the sagas are how good the writers adopt them. Kanto and Johto had the worse records when it came to adapting the content from the games.

The anime did a much better job in incorporating Team Galactic into the anime then they ever have with Team Rocket, Aqua and Magma (too early to say Plasma but so far not looking good based on what we seen). The only thing that makes each anime arc (and games) different from each other is the villains that they showcase and their overall plans. Team Plasma was built up as the villains in a good pace where they were preparing their things up in the background as Ash and Co. did their thing. Each episode they appeared in we saw more build up to their overall goal.

You do realize that May and Dawn were both new characters and thus we have to see them grow a bit? So them feeling down after a defeat is a good time to show character. If anything I be more concern if Dawn was a 'Mary Sue' if she didn't feel sad and discourage after losing her third contest in a row. May....Had a lot of BS wins that I glad weren't pulled over into Dawn as much.

I am keeping up with the current BW storyline. To tell the truth I am happy they are back to their antics because at least they are not acting like robots anymore. Also what 'stupidity' and 'antics' are you talking about? They haven't done a crazy boss fantasy at all since going back to 'White' (stupidity) and their robbing is pretty much a shadow to what they were before (antics). The only difference is that they have a bit more serious tech and annoying jet packs. It would have been better if they wrote the Rocket Trio as the mains they have been developed to be then some two second side characters. Just wish they ditch the jet packs and actually get 'hit' and focus away from Team Rocket so we can see Team Plasma.
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Old 08-16-2011, 10:15 AM
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Default Re: Am I the only one that noticed the ammount of flaws in the original sagas??

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Apparently not the whole fanbase since I am still watching. Also it seems like the fanbase is a revolving door seeing that we have new fans enjoying the show.

If you want to be like that then look at Jotho. It was basically the same thing as Kanto minus Contests, a forgotten subplot (looking at your GS Ball) and a character that did nothing but hold a baby pokemon in her arms. At the end of the day the anime is only an adaptation of the video games and he only difference in the sagas are how good the writers adopt them. Kanto and Johto had the worse records when it came to adapting the content from the games.

The anime did a much better job in incorporating Team Galactic into the anime then they ever have with Team Rocket, Aqua and Magma (too early to say Plasma but so far not looking good based on what we seen). The only thing that makes each anime arc (and games) different from each other is the villains that they showcase and their overall plans. Team Plasma was built up as the villains in a good pace where they were preparing their things up in the background as Ash and Co. did their thing. Each episode they appeared in we saw more build up to their overall goal.

You do realize that May and Dawn were both new characters and thus we have to see them grow a bit? So them feeling down after a defeat is a good time to show character. If anything I be more concern if Dawn was a 'Mary Sue' if she didn't feel sad and discourage after losing her third contest in a row. May....Had a lot of BS wins that I glad weren't pulled over into Dawn as much.

I am keeping up with the current BW storyline. To tell the truth I am happy they are back to their antics because at least they are not acting like robots anymore. Also what 'stupidity' and 'antics' are you talking about? They haven't done a crazy boss fantasy at all since going back to 'White' (stupidity) and their robbing is pretty much a shadow to what they were before (antics). The only difference is that they have a bit more serious tech and annoying jet packs. It would have been better if they wrote the Rocket Trio as the mains they have been developed to be then some two second side characters. Just wish they ditch the jet packs and actually get 'hit' and focus away from Team Rocket so we can see Team Plasma.
Pokemon is not as popular as of the Johto series.

At the time of its release, it was still relatively new. That is the problem.

I see nothing wrong with getting down because you lost a contest, but it aggravates me how both of them were totally waterlogged when it came to that. Get up and get back out there and stop acting like a pregnant woman.

Stupidity as in being stupid.

Antics as in extremely stupid stunts.

I am not happy that they are back to their old normal selves. It was much more enjoyable when there was an actual villainous team to worry about.
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Old 08-16-2011, 09:49 PM
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Default Re: Am I the only one that noticed the ammount of flaws in the original sagas??

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Pokemon is not as popular as of the Johto series.

At the time of its release, it was still relatively new. That is the problem.

I see nothing wrong with getting down because you lost a contest, but it aggravates me how both of them were totally waterlogged when it came to that. Get up and get back out there and stop acting like a pregnant woman.

Stupidity as in being stupid.

Antics as in extremely stupid stunts.

I am not happy that they are back to their old normal selves. It was much more enjoyable when there was an actual villainous team to worry about.

Pokemon in the US isn't as popular as it was. It is among kids but surely not with the older fans unless they are into this new 'retro' fad. (EG: Go to Hot Topic and see all the Pokemon shirts you can buy). Back then, Pokemon helps started the anime boom but now as less channels are able to support it and Pokemon itself. Even with the kids a majority of the fanbase that use to watch it 12 years ago aren't so anymore for various reasons. Still the show is fairly popular on it's own in Japan as the anime always seem to be in the Top 10 normally beating out Bleach and Naruto. It been doing so since 2007 and even up to recently. As for the US, I can't pull out the numbers but I do know that Pokemon (DP and now BW) is one of the higher rating shows on CN's Saturday morning block.

You do realize that both trainers were still new to this whole 'contest/pokemon journey' thing right? Of course two girls who just started out their pokemon journeys will be sad when they lost especially if one of them was confident that they would do well. If they cry then they cry. Better then them acting as if it was nothing. Even Ash showed some concern whenever he loses a match. Heck, he was mopy after his defeat from Lenora and Paul. The later wasn't as long but even I have to admit that was too whinny considering Ash has been playing this game for so long. Also there was no tears when Dawn lost her last match in the Grand Festival.

Example of Team Rocket being stupid and their antics in the recent BW saga? I count a majority of their Boss Fantasys stupid and a good example of their stupidity.

The Rocket Trio are far from their normal selves right now in BW. They are only a shadow of their former selves from DP. Not once during BW have they used some sort of ridiculous looking robot to commit their crimes (See the one they used at the Sinnoh League or the digging one from when Ash catches Charmander) nor have they blasted off. Instead they are trying to be written the same with a bit serious tone (EX: mechas that looked similar to what Hunter J would use and jetpacks to make last minute escapes.) The Rocket Trio we are seeing right now are a sad but more improved version of what we saw of them from earlier BW.

You are right though, the series does need a serious villain group right now. The problem is that for some reason they are refusing to use the material they have available. Apparently Team Plasma is too risky for them or something which explains why we haven't seen them. Something tells me that Team Rocket wasn't suppose to be this serious villain group that we were building them up to be but instead a means to introduce Team Plasma. Still since we didn't get those two episodes we are now left to deal with the Rocket Trio until they are able to kick start Team Plasma and set them up as the villain.
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Old 08-16-2011, 10:27 PM
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Default Re: Am I the only one that noticed the ammount of flaws in the original sagas??

Paul is a different story. Ash hates Paul because he mistreats Pokemon like that, and Ash battles him to prove that training Pokemon with love is the best way to train. Of course one would be sad for that.

But when you are battling in a competition and all you get is a ribbon and you burst into tears for that, I cannot understand that. Ribbon vs. Moral/Ethical values. Which is worth crying about more?

The Pokemon anime is a repetitive eyesore that needs better writing and better characters.
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