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  #1  
Old 03-04-2012, 01:31 AM
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Default Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

Argentina, Belgium, Canada, Iceland, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Andorra, Austria, Australia, Brazil, Colombia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, France, New Caledonia, Wallis and Futuna, Germany, Greenland, Hungary, Ireland, Isle of, Man, Jersey, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Slovenia, Switzerland, United Kingdom, and Uruguay are all countries that allow homosexual marriage (or civil unions) and accept homosexuals in society. It is recognized in countries like Mexico, Israel, and Japan and is being debated in China.

It is generally accepted in an overwhelming majority of Western or Westernized countries, so why is the U.S ethically behind? It is the year 2012, and the U.S is just now debating on the federal banning of gay marriage's unconstitutionality? Why is this?
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Old 03-05-2012, 02:09 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

Because the U.S is too busy trying to take over the Internet. That and being horribly broke out of their minds.
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:45 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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Originally Posted by Max0596 View Post
Because the U.S is too busy trying to take over the Internet. That and being horribly broke out of their minds.
The U.S was trying to take over the internet before it existed?
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Old 03-05-2012, 02:35 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

I would argue that it's because the US is so conservative religiously. Arguments that can be framed in a religious context tend to get muddied and stall.
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:56 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
I would argue that it's because the US is so conservative religiously. Arguments that can be framed in a religious context tend to get muddied and stall.
Agreed. It's a very interesting subject in it that there is a correlation between progessive stances vs religious affiliations. That is, the way one grows up and the social structure to which a single person belongs in is so great that it often overcomes any rational thought, liberal or conservative. Most certainly an economics professor is not going to understand how an anthropologist works and vice versa.

The US is in itself a right-leaning country. The left-most party is a right-leaning party and the right wing party is in the far right. When given that those are the only choices, it is rather tough for one to have any seriously progressive mindframe to exist.

In essence, on this topic, it's not whether homosexuality is ethical, if one considers that depending on this sliding scale of mindframes and worldviews, it is either or. We can, however, objectively state that this is ethical in it that we hold certain standard principles of ethicality and homosexuality doesn't actually break any rules that would make it unethical.
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Old 06-25-2012, 07:10 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?


That's honestly all I have to say about this. XD


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Old 06-25-2012, 08:41 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

I meant about them getting around to it now, not way back when. The U.S is actually slow on a lot of things, Heathcare for one, but that's a discussion for another time.

Also, you have to ask yourself; what IS ethical by definition? Well, for me, it's more of a recommendation of what is right and wrong. As a society(in some places/some people), we find homosexuality unethical because of our past, when it wasn't accepted at all. Same goes for gender norms, as bronies wouldn't be accepted in the past either, and would be far from ethical.

Society. Sucks.

I'm posting this because this is an interesting topic, and really needs to be debated more.
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Old 06-25-2012, 04:24 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

Maybe the problem here is you're not comparing it to other countries that have a high population of religious extremist.
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Old 06-28-2012, 07:22 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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Originally Posted by Max0596 View Post
I meant about them getting around to it now, not way back when. The U.S is actually slow on a lot of things, Heathcare for one, but that's a discussion for another time.

Also, you have to ask yourself; what IS ethical by definition? Well, for me, it's more of a recommendation of what is right and wrong. As a society(in some places/some people), we find homosexuality unethical because of our past, when it wasn't accepted at all. Same goes for gender norms, as bronies wouldn't be accepted in the past either, and would be far from ethical.

Society. Sucks.

I'm posting this because this is an interesting topic, and really needs to be debated more.
The question of what is "right" and "wrong" for a society can be answered in a scientific fashion.

The U.S is disgraceful in their ethical progress. And, the more I think about it, the more the previous posters are correct. The U.S, UK, and Turkey are the most religious nations in the western world, and are one of the few that have not federally legalized it.

The funny thing is that when anything ethically progressive is suggested, the religious right is the first to express their "concern". Contraceptives being made apart of medical care is a perfect and recent example. I am so sorry that the religious right cannot escape the 16th century, but people are going to have sex whether they like it or not so it is best to prevent STDs from killing us off.

Why can't religion simply stick to itself? Power-hungry mofos.


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Originally Posted by Judge Dredd View Post
Maybe the problem here is you're not comparing it to other countries that have a high population of religious extremist.
Israel is widely known for their zealots, and yet gay marriage is recognized there.
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  #10  
Old 06-29-2012, 04:11 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

I personally am not a fan of most religions and their followers for the above reason that PE2K Voices has stated. I find the general Christian the most irritating, considering they're quite prominent and usually the first that I hear express their concern and disdain for something, and are always the first to tell someone their wrong for being gay/lesbian/bi/transsexual, and then saying that they need Jesus or that they'll pray for the person's soul.

Now, please do understand that the above is the prime example of most of the Christians I know. I live in the vastly Republican state of Arkansas, so the above is what I hear and see on a daily basis. I actually do know a few wonderful religious folk that completely support homosexuality and all of its pursuits for rights, saying that God intended for love to be spread unconditionally and without regard to someone's sins or lifestyle, and those are the people I respect. It's the homophobic Christian parents that say they'd beat it out of them if their children became homosexuals that make me disgusted by some of them. And it's not just Christians, either. Most somewhat Bible-based religions are similar; Christian is just the one prominent and my state and the one that I recognize more for it. I am more educated in Christianity than I am in other religions, and I don't want to get the beliefs and statements of another teaching wrong.

So I just use Christianity as a representation. XDD

Anyway, yeah.

You know what I don't see Christian's flipping **** over? Divorce. Let me share with you a conversation between a student and my Civics teacher when we were having a debate on the matter of same-sex marriage:

"So, you don't believe that they should be able to marry? Why?"
"Because it's against my beliefs and against the bible. The bible says it's a sin."
"Okay. So the bible says that you can be forgiven for your sins, correct?"
"Yes, but if you ask for forgiveness for homosexuality, you're still living in that lifestyle and thus still sinning."
"Okay. The bible also says that divorce is wrong. So why can't you be forgiven for being divorced?"
"You can be if you ask for forgiveness."
"But you're still divorced, and you're still living in that lifestyle. No matter how much you ask for forgiveness, you're still divorced."

And as a note, no, she is not one-sided. She quizzes and challenges the views of those in support in the same manner, especially those who are religious and support it. c:

But, yeah. I think that's all I have to say for now.
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[12:39:44 AM] Sight of the Stars: just be like "SIGHT OF THE STARZ IS MAH BIZNITCH"
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  #11  
Old 06-29-2012, 04:36 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sight of the Stars View Post
I personally am not a fan of most religions and their followers for the above reason that PE2K Voices has stated. I find the general Christian the most irritating, considering they're quite prominent and usually the first that I hear express their concern and disdain for something, and are always the first to tell someone their wrong for being gay/lesbian/bi/transsexual, and then saying that they need Jesus or that they'll pray for the person's soul.

Now, please do understand that the above is the prime example of most of the Christians I know. I live in the vastly Republican state of Arkansas, so the above is what I hear and see on a daily basis. I actually do know a few wonderful religious folk that completely support homosexuality and all of its pursuits for rights, saying that God intended for love to be spread unconditionally and without regard to someone's sins or lifestyle, and those are the people I respect. It's the homophobic Christian parents that say they'd beat it out of them if their children became homosexuals that make me disgusted by some of them. And it's not just Christians, either. Most somewhat Bible-based religions are similar; Christian is just the one prominent and my state and the one that I recognize more for it. I am more educated in Christianity than I am in other religions, and I don't want to get the beliefs and statements of another teaching wrong.

So I just use Christianity as a representation. XDD

Anyway, yeah.

You know what I don't see Christian's flipping **** over? Divorce. Let me share with you a conversation between a student and my Civics teacher when we were having a debate on the matter of same-sex marriage:

"So, you don't believe that they should be able to marry? Why?"
"Because it's against my beliefs and against the bible. The bible says it's a sin."
"Okay. So the bible says that you can be forgiven for your sins, correct?"
"Yes, but if you ask for forgiveness for homosexuality, you're still living in that lifestyle and thus still sinning."
"Okay. The bible also says that divorce is wrong. So why can't you be forgiven for being divorced?"
"You can be if you ask for forgiveness."
"But you're still divorced, and you're still living in that lifestyle. No matter how much you ask for forgiveness, you're still divorced."

And as a note, no, she is not one-sided. She quizzes and challenges the views of those in support in the same manner, especially those who are religious and support it. c:

But, yeah. I think that's all I have to say for now.
The question of homosexuality is not old. Thats where most Christians say its against the Bible. From Sodom and Gomohorra(sp)

I have an exceptionally good friend who is Gay. Do I condemn him? No. Not my place. Do I wish he was straight? You bet. Do I bash him into feeling bad? No way.

Do I feel homosexuality is wrong? Yes. But I do believe in repentance. The problem with your arguement using divorce as an example is that divorce isn't a sin. Haha, I know you were just using it as an example, but still. Repentance isn't just a "Oh, I am sinning, Save me!" and then call it good. Your right, if you repent, but are still gay, or 'divorced', then your not really repenting. You can't just ask, like for candy. You have to want it. And then go about doing all you can to be forgiven. Anyways, I've said my peice. In my religion, we have a saying: "Love the sinner, not the sin"
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  #12  
Old 06-29-2012, 04:42 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

I find it pretty interesting that America is so behind in things like this. I am not American and have no knowledge of politics there or anything, but to outsiders (at least young ones!), America presents itself as a really progressive country. I guess because what non-Americans hear about when it comes to America is entertainment, famous people, new inventions/fads, new scientific discoveries, people doing risky, brilliant and creative new things, the biggest names in medicine/science/business, impressive theme parks/shopping centers and everything being twice as big as it is here in Australia, etc.

It's only pretty recently that I've discovered that underlying all that is this huge population of extremely religious people (fundamentals? I dunno if that's the right world), who basically stop the country from moving forward at all on real issues. I just find it really fascinating and strange that America can present this facade of being an extremely progressive country in all these areas, while in reality there's all this other stuff going on underneath. Definitely not what I expected!
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Old 06-29-2012, 04:42 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

I dunno, I try my best to keep up with political/ethical issues, but sometimes I fall behind- this is one of those times so forgive me for sounding illiterate and/or stupid. [/DISCLAIMER]

Maybe we (by 'we' meaning the U.S., as a country and not considering individuality) are so behind because, as a country, we tend to hold this sort of... hypocritical tactful personality, where we fear to tread on toes. In our quest for freedom, this gave us a very liberal sense of freedom, comically so, where from the moment we're children we're taught to believe that we can say/do anything we want and that no one can take our 'rights' away. Which is all well and good, believe me, but can give an individual this sort of... invincibility complex, where we become untouchable and just in everything we do. We're often the place where phrases such as 'the customer is always right!' tend to be spoken of more, and such.

So then, given this attitude toward our own opinions and beliefs, anything that seems different will be responded to with heavy push-back, and God damn it all, because we're ingrained with the idea that we are always right, it then gives us this sort of incredible, unbearable perseverance that to this day shocks me. So, to me, it's really not a surprise that 'advanced' ideas, like that of humans possibly having a separate sexual orientation without it being either a terrible genetic mutation, or the invitation of the devil force-feeding itself into the all-American household.

We (again, as a country) tends to be fairly selfish anyway, so I can understand that many heterosexual individuals just simply lack the empathy to understand that a homosexual individual is, in fact, not much different than themselves- simply because it involves thinking of someone who is not themselves. And not only from the heterosexual side, mind you. I find that many homosexuals that I know personally only became interested in the recent political events because homosexuality and thus the allowance of marriage was one of the major topics. Again, suggesting that we only tend to be truly interested in the 'greater good' when it has to do with something that we'll benefit from, and that we'll understand.

Overly-religious homophobic 'prophets' will benefit from the publicity and/or money they'll receive, most likely from whatever texts they'll create about 'saving' oneself from the big bad homosexual monster, and homosexual couples will benefit from having the possibility of being able to marry.

TL;DR: I believe the U.S. is 'ethically' behind because we're selfish.

(Sorry, this is all over the place. But I guess some homosexual insight from someone who won't cry and moan about how I don't have my rights because of idiots or something would be a useful addition to the conversation?)

EDIT:


Quote:
Originally Posted by TARDIS View Post
I have an exceptionally good friend who is Gay. Do I condemn him? No. Not my place. Do I wish he was straight? You bet. Do I bash him into feeling bad? No way.
This is very interesting to hear. Recently I was exposed to a person who quite enjoyed telling a few people I knew (and a few I didn't), that they were going to hell for an eternity for their homosexuality. While I'm pretty used to hearing this, it really concerned in the manner of which he said it: He was smiling, quite satisfied with himself, as if watching a great event unfold.

Being someone who was raised as a Catholic, and to this day believing in God, I felt the need to say something about it- but I didn't want to start the old 'Zealot vs. Homosexual!' war. Forgive me for any mistakes, but I learned that only God could judge, and so I told him I found it particularly strange that he knew that my punishment was going to be 'hell for an eternity'. Perhaps homosexuality is a sin after all. But I just thought it was strange that he somehow thought he knew God's punishment for a certain sin, and it particularly troubled me that, as a self-defined 'Christian', he found pleasure in that his fellow human beings were going to hell.
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Old 06-29-2012, 04:52 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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Originally Posted by Disco View Post
I TL;DR: I believe the U.S. is 'ethically' behind because we're selfish.
Well said ma'm. Well said.


And I hate the Customer.
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Old 06-29-2012, 11:07 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sight of the Stars View Post
I personally am not a fan of most religions and their followers for the above reason that PE2K Voices has stated. I find the general Christian the most irritating, considering they're quite prominent and usually the first that I hear express their concern and disdain for something, and are always the first to tell someone their wrong for being gay/lesbian/bi/transsexual, and then saying that they need Jesus or that they'll pray for the person's soul.

Now, please do understand that the above is the prime example of most of the Christians I know. I live in the vastly Republican state of Arkansas, so the above is what I hear and see on a daily basis. I actually do know a few wonderful religious folk that completely support homosexuality and all of its pursuits for rights, saying that God intended for love to be spread unconditionally and without regard to someone's sins or lifestyle, and those are the people I respect. It's the homophobic Christian parents that say they'd beat it out of them if their children became homosexuals that make me disgusted by some of them. And it's not just Christians, either. Most somewhat Bible-based religions are similar; Christian is just the one prominent and my state and the one that I recognize more for it. I am more educated in Christianity than I am in other religions, and I don't want to get the beliefs and statements of another teaching wrong.

So I just use Christianity as a representation. XDD

Anyway, yeah.

You know what I don't see Christian's flipping **** over? Divorce. Let me share with you a conversation between a student and my Civics teacher when we were having a debate on the matter of same-sex marriage:

"So, you don't believe that they should be able to marry? Why?"
"Because it's against my beliefs and against the bible. The bible says it's a sin."
"Okay. So the bible says that you can be forgiven for your sins, correct?"
"Yes, but if you ask for forgiveness for homosexuality, you're still living in that lifestyle and thus still sinning."
"Okay. The bible also says that divorce is wrong. So why can't you be forgiven for being divorced?"
"You can be if you ask for forgiveness."
"But you're still divorced, and you're still living in that lifestyle. No matter how much you ask for forgiveness, you're still divorced."

And as a note, no, she is not one-sided. She quizzes and challenges the views of those in support in the same manner, especially those who are religious and support it. c:

But, yeah. I think that's all I have to say for now.
Know that the majority of Christian opinion is homophobic and regressive, as it is for many more of the other religions (especially Abrahamic). The U.S has potential in its growth, but the zealots and fundamentalists are now finally tearing down the secular clause in the constitution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TARDIS View Post
The question of homosexuality is not old. Thats where most Christians say its against the Bible. From Sodom and Gomohorra(sp)

I have an exceptionally good friend who is Gay. Do I condemn him? No. Not my place. Do I wish he was straight? You bet. Do I bash him into feeling bad? No way.

Do I feel homosexuality is wrong? Yes. But I do believe in repentance. The problem with your arguement using divorce as an example is that divorce isn't a sin. Haha, I know you were just using it as an example, but still. Repentance isn't just a "Oh, I am sinning, Save me!" and then call it good. Your right, if you repent, but are still gay, or 'divorced', then your not really repenting. You can't just ask, like for candy. You have to want it. And then go about doing all you can to be forgiven. Anyways, I've said my peice. In my religion, we have a saying: "Love the sinner, not the sin"
I feel it is impossible that God would dislike homosexuality if he is truly benevolent, considering the causes and factors of said trait.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokemon Trainer Sarah View Post
I find it pretty interesting that America is so behind in things like this. I am not American and have no knowledge of politics there or anything, but to outsiders (at least young ones!), America presents itself as a really progressive country. I guess because what non-Americans hear about when it comes to America is entertainment, famous people, new inventions/fads, new scientific discoveries, people doing risky, brilliant and creative new things, the biggest names in medicine/science/business, impressive theme parks/shopping centers and everything being twice as big as it is here in Australia, etc.

It's only pretty recently that I've discovered that underlying all that is this huge population of extremely religious people (fundamentals? I dunno if that's the right world), who basically stop the country from moving forward at all on real issues. I just find it really fascinating and strange that America can present this facade of being an extremely progressive country in all these areas, while in reality there's all this other stuff going on underneath. Definitely not what I expected!
These lies that U.S spreads are unbelievable. The U.S medical field is in shambles. An enormous portion of the U.S society (and western world as a whole) refuse to vaccinate their children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco View Post
I dunno, I try my best to keep up with political/ethical issues, but sometimes I fall behind- this is one of those times so forgive me for sounding illiterate and/or stupid. [/DISCLAIMER]

Maybe we (by 'we' meaning the U.S., as a country and not considering individuality) are so behind because, as a country, we tend to hold this sort of... hypocritical tactful personality, where we fear to tread on toes. In our quest for freedom, this gave us a very liberal sense of freedom, comically so, where from the moment we're children we're taught to believe that we can say/do anything we want and that no one can take our 'rights' away. Which is all well and good, believe me, but can give an individual this sort of... invincibility complex, where we become untouchable and just in everything we do. We're often the place where phrases such as 'the customer is always right!' tend to be spoken of more, and such.

So then, given this attitude toward our own opinions and beliefs, anything that seems different will be responded to with heavy push-back, and God damn it all, because we're ingrained with the idea that we are always right, it then gives us this sort of incredible, unbearable perseverance that to this day shocks me. So, to me, it's really not a surprise that 'advanced' ideas, like that of humans possibly having a separate sexual orientation without it being either a terrible genetic mutation, or the invitation of the devil force-feeding itself into the all-American household.

We (again, as a country) tends to be fairly selfish anyway, so I can understand that many heterosexual individuals just simply lack the empathy to understand that a homosexual individual is, in fact, not much different than themselves- simply because it involves thinking of someone who is not themselves. And not only from the heterosexual side, mind you. I find that many homosexuals that I know personally only became interested in the recent political events because homosexuality and thus the allowance of marriage was one of the major topics. Again, suggesting that we only tend to be truly interested in the 'greater good' when it has to do with something that we'll benefit from, and that we'll understand.

Overly-religious homophobic 'prophets' will benefit from the publicity and/or money they'll receive, most likely from whatever texts they'll create about 'saving' oneself from the big bad homosexual monster, and homosexual couples will benefit from having the possibility of being able to marry.

TL;DR: I believe the U.S. is 'ethically' behind because we're selfish.

(Sorry, this is all over the place. But I guess some homosexual insight from someone who won't cry and moan about how I don't have my rights because of idiots or something would be a useful addition to the conversation?)

EDIT:



This is very interesting to hear. Recently I was exposed to a person who quite enjoyed telling a few people I knew (and a few I didn't), that they were going to hell for an eternity for their homosexuality. While I'm pretty used to hearing this, it really concerned in the manner of which he said it: He was smiling, quite satisfied with himself, as if watching a great event unfold.

Being someone who was raised as a Catholic, and to this day believing in God, I felt the need to say something about it- but I didn't want to start the old 'Zealot vs. Homosexual!' war. Forgive me for any mistakes, but I learned that only God could judge, and so I told him I found it particularly strange that he knew that my punishment was going to be 'hell for an eternity'. Perhaps homosexuality is a sin after all. But I just thought it was strange that he somehow thought he knew God's punishment for a certain sin, and it particularly troubled me that, as a self-defined 'Christian', he found pleasure in that his fellow human beings were going to hell.
If homosexuality is a sin, God gave it to them when they were born. The development of homosexuality is a combination of genetics and environment. The recent shift in the homosexual-heterosexual ratio has shown that the most probable reason is because we have overpopulated.
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Last edited by Teddiursa of the Sky; 06-29-2012 at 12:29 PM.
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