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  #61  
Old 10-25-2012, 12:14 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
Sure you can. Pedophilia has genetic predisposition and we freely persecute them for it.
There are negative psychological effects when pedophilia is acted upon. But, again, I do not hold them responsible for it (unless of course they act upon it, because it is negative).
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  #62  
Old 10-25-2012, 03:18 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
Sure you can. Pedophilia has genetic predisposition and we freely persecute them for it.

The issue, of course, is that religion doesn't come into play if we speak of ethics of homosexuality, so I have no idea why this is being up for discussion in the first place. But what's done is done.

It is a fascinating topic though, the study of Bible and its relevance to homosexuality.
I think religion keeps getting brought up because a lot of people's sense of ethics and morality are based on religion, and it can be used to justify people's both positive and negative views on homosexuality.

I really cannot fathom how homosexuality is constantly compared to paedophilia. Homosexual acts are committed between consenting adults.

We freely prosecute for paedophilia because, as Teddiursa of the Sky has pointed out, paedophilia has long lasting negative psychological effects. It is also committed with non-consenting people, who often do not have the mental capacity to understand what is happening, or that they have the ability to say no. There are so many things wrong with paedophilia that I couldn't even begin to list them.

Coming back to your point about it being a genetic condition/predisposition, some people are more likely to develop sociopathic tendencies than others, suggesting a predisposition for murder and other heinous crimes (of which, I would include paedophilia), should we not prosecute them for it because of a 'genetic predisposition'?
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  #63  
Old 10-25-2012, 06:42 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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Originally Posted by Teddiursa of the Sky View Post
There are negative psychological effects when pedophilia is acted upon. But, again, I do not hold them responsible for it (unless of course they act upon it, because it is negative).
Again, we are drawing a mirror between homosexuality and pedophilia. Obviously we are talking about ones who are acting on their genetic predisposition, one which we do persecute for and one that we shouldn't. It is not the genetic predisposition that's the issue, but the sociocultural issue that surrounds it that makes us persecute pedophilia but not homosexuality. That's the point I was trying to get across.

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Originally Posted by Neptune's Disciple View Post
I think religion keeps getting brought up because a lot of people's sense of ethics and morality are based on religion, and it can be used to justify people's both positive and negative views on homosexuality.

I really cannot fathom how homosexuality is constantly compared to paedophilia. Homosexual acts are committed between consenting adults.

We freely prosecute for paedophilia because, as Teddiursa of the Sky has pointed out, paedophilia has long lasting negative psychological effects. It is also committed with non-consenting people, who often do not have the mental capacity to understand what is happening, or that they have the ability to say no. There are so many things wrong with paedophilia that I couldn't even begin to list them.

Coming back to your point about it being a genetic condition/predisposition, some people are more likely to develop sociopathic tendencies than others, suggesting a predisposition for murder and other heinous crimes (of which, I would include paedophilia), should we not prosecute them for it because of a 'genetic predisposition'?
The study of ethics was born to transcend religion and provide a correct standard to which the rules can be abide by without having to dip into religion. This is why you can objectively state that there is no ethical issues with homosexuality, rather than subjectively state through religion that there is or isn't any issue with homosexuality.

No, we persecute people for acting upon a genetic predisposition. What I wasn't communicating through the text was that, due to the context that Teddiursa placed upon, which dealt with an action towards a particular genetic predisposition that is being persecuted. Where in anybody's right mind would we do something as stupid as "thought policing"?

We compare and contrast pedophilia with homosexuality because...they both have genetic predispositions and one is a hideous crime while the other has no ethical issues. That's why we do that.
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  #64  
Old 10-25-2012, 09:23 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
Again, we are drawing a mirror between homosexuality and pedophilia. Obviously we are talking about ones who are acting on their genetic predisposition, one which we do persecute for and one that we shouldn't. It is not the genetic predisposition that's the issue, but the sociocultural issue that surrounds it that makes us persecute pedophilia but not homosexuality. That's the point I was trying to get across
The issue is not cultural, unless you consider the psychological health of children a cultural issue. I have no problem with pedophiles unless they actively violate children. I should have clarified my previous statement further by including the fact that homosexual intercourse, when practiced between two consenting adults, is harmless and therefore should not be considered immoral.
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  #65  
Old 10-26-2012, 10:56 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

My opinion is simple.

I do not have any problems with the way anyone is born, born with out a leg, downs syndrome, aspergers or even hemophilia and people are born the way they are if they turn out the way they are because of how they are born it's not their fault and no one should complain about it.

If your going to fault gays for being gays, how about you fault me for having aspergers, i was born with it grew up with it and became an adult with it, you gonna pick on me?
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  #66  
Old 10-27-2012, 02:34 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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Originally Posted by Teddiursa of the Sky View Post
The issue is not cultural, unless you consider the psychological health of children a cultural issue. I have no problem with pedophiles unless they actively violate children. I should have clarified my previous statement further by including the fact that homosexual intercourse, when practiced between two consenting adults, is harmless and therefore should not be considered immoral.
It is cultural in a sense that there are cultures to which sexuality in children is permitted. There has been a multitude of Anthropological studies on African tribes to which this is in action. It'll be folly to state that there isn't a cultural issue to that.

However, I said "sociocultural issue". That is, there is a secondary component to it, the one that you are talking about there. It's not just a cultural issue, but also one that involves us as a society. This is where you have mental health of children to consider. If this isn't widely accepted, then how society has structured itself dictates how children would behave to a certain degree. In our society, it is much more likely that the children will be scarred and require psychological treatment.

Again, that's what I'm getting at: a genetic predisposition does nothing, since that would be thoughtpolicing. Acting upon a genetic predisposition is why we persecute pedophilia. We don't persecute homosexuality in the same way is not because of a genetic predisposition, but because homosexuality is by definition not unethical.
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  #67  
Old 10-28-2012, 12:26 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

I have two arguements against homosexuality:

1. Homosexuality is unnatural.

Some people seem to think that there is an “essence” of what a proper human being should be like as well as what our sexual organs should be used for. They believe that sexual organs should only be used for procreation.

First, it isn’t clear why being unnatural is wrong. My hands weren’t made for walking, so is it wrong for me to walk on my hands? No.

Second, I don’t know why sexual organs should only be used for procreation. Perhas some people think that’s why God created sexual organs, but so what?

Third, homosexuality is found in nature. It is something that could fulfill a role, such as a homosexual who helps care for children of a family member rather than producing new children. This could give living offspring a better chance at survival rather than produce more offspring that might not have enough resources to live.
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  #68  
Old 10-28-2012, 02:18 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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Some people seem to think that there is an “essence” of what a proper human being should be like as well as what our sexual organs should be used for. They believe that sexual organs should only be used for procreation.
It's funny because homosexuality is natural. Some people just seem to struggle with the truth.
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  #69  
Old 10-28-2012, 02:39 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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Originally Posted by Faith View Post
Third, homosexuality is found in nature. It is something that could fulfill a role, such as a homosexual who helps care for children of a family member rather than producing new children. This could give living offspring a better chance at survival rather than produce more offspring that might not have enough resources to live.
There are actually studies showing that gay primates help protect their troops. Basically, the alpha male gorilla sees no threat from the gay one, which is quite often its offspring or brother, and therefore does not chase it away. However, the gay gorilla helps the alpha male by keeping other male gorillas away who may try to oust the alpha. The gay gorilla has the same strength and athletic ability as their straight counterparts, so it gives double the protection for the troop without causing competition for the alpha. From this study, it is theorised that homosexuality is a genetic trait which may not lead to reproduction for the individual, however it helps the survival of its family.

I would certainly also argue that homosexuality is natural, as it occurs in basically every single animal on the planet. I know it's cliché, but homophobia only exists in one. Go figure.

Kenny, while ethics in its purest form may be considered to be without cultural or religious reference, it is simply not true in practice. Ethics are entirely subjective, and tuned to the culture in which the individual exists. People who are raised in one culture or religion will likely have a different sense of morality and ethics than one raised in another, the severity of the difference is directly proportional to the difference in culture.

In my opinion, because of a whole bunch of different reasons, homosexuality is a completely normal behaviour and not in any way unethical. It doesn't hurt anyone, however some people believe that it is unethical, and they tend to be the ones that hurt those that are gay. In the truest sense of ethics, homosexuality should not be considered unethical as it does not hurt anyone, nor take away the rights or ability to live of anyone else. Unfortunately, not everyone's ethical sense agrees with that.
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  #70  
Old 12-05-2012, 02:27 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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  #71  
Old 12-13-2012, 06:19 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

As a Christian, I guess I don't mind throwing my view out.

I also want to lead with the statement that I do not wish to push my beliefs or religion on anyone. We are all individuals, and we have the right to decide things for ourselves. I'm offering a viewpoint, and if you don't agree, that's completely fine. You have that right and that ability.

I know a lot of people tend to be wary of us because of some of our more extreme members' views.

Honestly speaking, I don't really support gay marriage. I don't hate gays, I don't think they should be deprived happiness. Let me get that out now so people will continue reading.

Now, while I don't really agree or support it, I do have to say this:

A lot of Christians like quoting the Bible and its famous abomination verse. Don't honestly care to take the time to find it. But it is in there. What a lot of Christians overlook is this:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," -Matthew 28:19

It doesn't say pick and choose who. It says all nations, which can be interpreted in any number of ways, but I think just means that: ALL NATIONS. Everyone in their nations. A lot of Christians aren't good representatives of this. We can't connect and even try to spread the message to people willing to hear us if we don't build a connection with them. Heck, even just for the sake of being friends, what's the issue?

Another:
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye." Matthew 7:1-5

Not much to add here. It's the proverbial "Let he without sin cast the first stone." Even if you're a Christian and think it's wrong, you're not without sin. We aren't meant to judge. It isn't our place to do so. Leave that up to the higher power.


I'm sorry if I upset anyone or it seems like propaganda. I just want to show people we're not all zealots on a crusade. As long as churches aren't forced to host homosexual weddings against their will, go for it. I'll let the grand scheme of things take care of any judgments or punishments. That's much too far above my pay grade.

Hope it doesn't cause too much of a stir. If it does, for sanity and friendliness sake, I'll do something about this post. But I want at least a few people to know we're not all Westboro's running around.

EDIT
Reviewing the thread a little more, I guess Cobalt Shadow pretty much said the same thing as me but in a more concise and easy to follow form. Sorry.

Last edited by Sircry; 12-13-2012 at 06:24 AM.
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  #72  
Old 12-20-2012, 04:02 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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Originally Posted by Sircry View Post
As a Christian, I guess I don't mind throwing my view out.

I also want to lead with the statement that I do not wish to push my beliefs or religion on anyone. We are all individuals, and we have the right to decide things for ourselves. I'm offering a viewpoint, and if you don't agree, that's completely fine. You have that right and that ability.

I know a lot of people tend to be wary of us because of some of our more extreme members' views.

Honestly speaking, I don't really support gay marriage. I don't hate gays, I don't think they should be deprived happiness. Let me get that out now so people will continue reading.

Now, while I don't really agree or support it, I do have to say this:

A lot of Christians like quoting the Bible and its famous abomination verse. Don't honestly care to take the time to find it. But it is in there. What a lot of Christians overlook is this:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," -Matthew 28:19

It doesn't say pick and choose who. It says all nations, which can be interpreted in any number of ways, but I think just means that: ALL NATIONS. Everyone in their nations. A lot of Christians aren't good representatives of this. We can't connect and even try to spread the message to people willing to hear us if we don't build a connection with them. Heck, even just for the sake of being friends, what's the issue?

Another:
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye." Matthew 7:1-5

Not much to add here. It's the proverbial "Let he without sin cast the first stone." Even if you're a Christian and think it's wrong, you're not without sin. We aren't meant to judge. It isn't our place to do so. Leave that up to the higher power.


I'm sorry if I upset anyone or it seems like propaganda. I just want to show people we're not all zealots on a crusade. As long as churches aren't forced to host homosexual weddings against their will, go for it. I'll let the grand scheme of things take care of any judgments or punishments. That's much too far above my pay grade.

Hope it doesn't cause too much of a stir. If it does, for sanity and friendliness sake, I'll do something about this post. But I want at least a few people to know we're not all Westboro's running around.

EDIT
Reviewing the thread a little more, I guess Cobalt Shadow pretty much said the same thing as me but in a more concise and easy to follow form. Sorry.
I am not here to challenge your theological views, but what sufficient argument could you have against homosexual marriage? What would motivate you to remain unsupportive of their righteous endeavor, and how is it any different from any other civil rights plight in the history of humanity?
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  #73  
Old 12-20-2012, 05:36 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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Originally Posted by Teddiursa of the Sky View Post
I am not here to challenge your theological views, but what sufficient argument could you have against homosexual marriage? What would motivate you to remain unsupportive of their righteous endeavor, and how is it any different from any other civil rights plight in the history of humanity?
I guess I should correct myself or clarify.

I don't support the "right" to Christian marriage. As in, I don't think churches should have to give the rites under law because it wouls be infringing on their rights.

If a church willingly supports the marriage, I suppose thats fine. But im wary of a group picking and choosing which aspects of doctrine it observes as opposed to following all.

Im fine with civil ceremonies. Domestic partnerships and courthouse ceremonies.

I never said or implied that it was different than other movements. They're human beings and deserve happiness too.
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  #74  
Old 12-20-2012, 05:47 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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Originally Posted by Sircry View Post
I guess I should correct myself or clarify.

I don't support the "right" to Christian marriage. As in, I don't think churches should have to give the rites under law because it wouls be infringing on their rights.

If a church willingly supports the marriage, I suppose thats fine. But im wary of a group picking and choosing which aspects of doctrine it observes as opposed to following all.

Im fine with civil ceremonies. Domestic partnerships and courthouse ceremonies.

I never said or implied that it was different than other movements. They're human beings and deserve happiness too.
Then do you disagree or agree with the federal government and how it threatened the Church of Latter Day Saints' tax exempt status when they refused African American membership and interracial marriage?
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  #75  
Old 12-20-2012, 06:29 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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Then do you disagree or agree with the federal government and how it threatened the Church of Latter Day Saints' tax exempt status when they refused African American membership and interracial marriage?
I agree with the government 's action.

The difference I'm seeing is that in Scripture, it doesn't, as far as I know, question interracial relations, as King Solomon married a woman of different race. Though, to be fair, he wasnt a model of perfect behavior.

I'm not saying or implying gay marriage is basically wrong. What I'm trying to get at is that a church, mosque, or any religious institution shouldn't be forced to accept a decision which violates their basic written beliefs, the exception being groups like WBC who invent or interpret in a way that specifically is targeted for hate.

If a church openly accepts the marriage and sanctions it of their own accord, fine. The members that don't like it can leave. But institutions shouldn't have THEIR rights infringed upon just as homosexuals shouldn't have theirs. In my church, the pastor rejects marriages at times that he doesn't believe fit the sanctity of the beliefs the MLS follows.

I like this discussion board. Its stimulating and this is opening my mind a bit. Giving me a new way to see it and think about it.

Last edited by Sircry; 12-20-2012 at 06:36 PM.
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