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Rate My Team Get your competitive battling team rated here and get help with movesets and battling strategies.


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  #1  
Old 03-30-2010, 12:36 AM
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Default "Why is that Pokemon an Uber?"

Hai, guise! I think we should make a nice big thread detailing (and possibly debating in a friendly manner) why certain Pokemon are classified as Ubers (or not Ubers) and thus illegal (or legal) for standard play. While some Pokemon are obvious, such as Mewtwo (for its ridiculously high Special Attack, of course), some seem ambiguous at times. For instance, Wobbuffet is often hotly debated as an Uber. Garchomp has been called Uber by some, and even Dragonite is sometimes called an Uber.

Now, since HeartGold and SoulSilver just came out, let's start with Ho-Oh and Lugia. Why are they Ubers? While yes, they are powerful, my Espeon, or even my Feraligatr, could theoretically own either of them.

Also, why is Jirachi not Uber? It's freaking strong, with the capability to not only take a massive hit but to dish out some powerful strikes as well.
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Last edited by Akai Shizuku; 03-30-2010 at 12:40 AM.
  #2  
Old 03-30-2010, 01:55 AM
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Default Re: "Why is that Pokemon an Uber?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akai Shizuku View Post
Hai, guise! I think we should make a nice big thread detailing (and possibly debating in a friendly manner) why certain Pokemon are classified as Ubers (or not Ubers) and thus illegal (or legal) for standard play. While some Pokemon are obvious, such as Mewtwo (for its ridiculously high Special Attack, of course), some seem ambiguous at times. For instance, Wobbuffet is often hotly debated as an Uber. Garchomp has been called Uber by some, and even Dragonite is sometimes called an Uber.

Now, since HeartGold and SoulSilver just came out, let's start with Ho-Oh and Lugia. Why are they Ubers? While yes, they are powerful, my Espeon, or even my Feraligatr, could theoretically own either of them.

Also, why is Jirachi not Uber? It's freaking strong, with the capability to not only take a massive hit but to dish out some powerful strikes as well.
lol.
Bcoz the metagame has a lot of counters for it. Heatran, Magnezone and even Gyarados are examples.
Garchomp has Sand Veil, amazing typing combination and Swords Dance. Nuff said.

Also, dude, this section is only for competitive metagame, if I'm correct. Your analysis are complety in-game/adventure based.
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Last edited by SaviorSephiroth; 03-30-2010 at 01:58 AM.
  #3  
Old 03-30-2010, 01:56 AM
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Default Re: "Why is that Pokemon an Uber?"

Simply put, a pokémon is classified as uber if it is too powerful to participate in standard play, having little in the way of counters or checks that can stop it from completing its intended goal. Smogon determining tiering depending on three charactoristics:

Offensive Characteristic: A Pokémon that is capable of, in common battle conditions, sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Defensive Characteristic: A Pokémon that can, in common battle conditions, wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Support Characteristic: A Pokémon that can, in common battle conditions, consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Lugia and Ho-oh are capable of meeting two or three of these criterea each. They're both defensive behemoths, dwarfing the stats of all special walls (Bar blissey) in the OU while having access to instant recovery moves and a variety of support moves. Not only do they both have access to Calm Mind, they can also dual screens and can set up with ease. Ho-oh's signature move, Sacred Fire, is also an excellent defensive option thanks to the high likelihood of inflicting a burn, essentially doubling Ho-oh's already impressive physical bulk. They're also pretty fast, meaning they could get the jump on many potential threats if EV'd appropriately, setting up before they have a chance to move. Combine their excellent walling potential and the draining nature of Pressure, and you have two supeb walls. If you think your espeon or feraligatr could work through either of these threats with ease, think again. As a quick demontration, a shadow ball from a timid, Max SpAtt LO espeon could not even 2HKO a calm lugia with no EVs at all.

Offensively, both pokes are capable of causing a world of pain. Lugia packs arguably the best defensive statline in the game, making setting up a breeze. After a Calm Mind or two, it's nigh on untouchable as far as OU standards go. Physical threats may not fare much better against a stat line that rival's OU's best physical walls. Base 90 stats aren't too shabby on the offense, especially when coupled with defenses which allow for multiple CM setups. If a player hasn't brought a PHazer, you'd be hard pressed to deal with a boosting lugia. Aeroblast would also come into it's own in OU play, and couple with Hydro Pump/Surf offers almost perfect coverage.

Ho-oh is arguably even more theatening, and definately an immediate threat thanks to an attack stat that only 4 OUs surpass and access to two excellent STAB moves- Sacred Fire and Brave Bird. Many players consider Sacred Fire to be the best move in the game, a move as strong as earthquake with a 50% burn rate and no drawbacks apart from a small accuracy drop. A complementary movepool of other physical attacks offer coverage not afforded by the STAB moves. A well rounded special movepool allows for mixed sets or offensive Calm Minder sets too.

So yeah, neither are OU material in the slightest. Lugia was never going to be, but the SR weakness (Ho-oh's biggest drawback) earnt him a test on the smogon server sometime last year. If was hugely apparent how badly it outclassed the rest of the metagame with proper support, and promptly shipped back to ubers.

As for why Jirachi isn't uber, it really isn't good enough. All of its options have solid counters, it's statline is unremarkable (Good, but unremarkable), it doesn't overcentralise the metagame in any way. It's nowhere near as strong as some of the top offensive threats in OU, and its STAB moves both have poor coverage. It's just not scary enough to handle for a raise in tier to even be considered.

(Btw, Garchomp is deemed uber by the vast majority of players, and dragonite has never really been considered for uber status. It's been living in salamence's shadow as far as sweeping goes, and neither are without checks or counters either. Nit'e defensive and supporting talents would never be enough to get it a rise either.)
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  #4  
Old 03-30-2010, 02:20 AM
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Default Re: "Why is that Pokemon an Uber?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akai Shizuku View Post
Hai, guise! I think we should make a nice big thread detailing (and possibly debating in a friendly manner) why certain Pokemon are classified as Ubers (or not Ubers) and thus illegal (or legal) for standard play. While some Pokemon are obvious, such as Mewtwo (for its ridiculously high Special Attack, of course), some seem ambiguous at times. For instance, Wobbuffet is often hotly debated as an Uber. Garchomp has been called Uber by some, and even Dragonite is sometimes called an Uber.

Now, since HeartGold and SoulSilver just came out, let's start with Ho-Oh and Lugia. Why are they Ubers? While yes, they are powerful, my Espeon, or even my Feraligatr, could theoretically own either of them.

Also, why is Jirachi not Uber? It's freaking strong, with the capability to not only take a massive hit but to dish out some powerful strikes as well.
= /

Wobuffet is Uber because there is no way to outpredict it. It traps everything in the game, and Encore makes it way too easy for him to abuse his high HP to decimate a team's offensive core. I'm glad he's not OU.

Garchomp is Uber because he conveniently outspeeds all base 100 Speed Pokemon, which is astounding, and makes him the best Swords Dancer this side of Rayquaza. Also, he has a better HP stat than most tanks and walls, and killing him was so difficult that Vaporeon actually had to invest in its awesome base 110 Special Attack to guarantee an OHKO. Even then, Yache Berry could save Garchomp, and he can OHKO with a +2 Outrage (don't remember if Earthquake does it as well). Moreover, he gets STAB on the two of the most powerful physical attacks in the game; conveniently, they sport some of the best coverage you can hope for, only truly walled by Skarmory and Bronzong, both of whom can be taken care of using Fire Fang/Fire Blast.

I don't understand why Dragonite can be considered Uber. If anything, I'd say Salamence because he's very fast (much faster than Dragonite) and has no definite counters in OU. Outrage, alongside Draco Meteor, Dragon Dance and a potential 328 Speed, has made Salamence the prime example of a "broken" OU Pokemon, if we were to decide there are any.

Jirachi shouldn't be Uber because it's a grounded Steel type, and because he only has four moveslots. He can be trapped by Magnezone, is countered by many bulky Earthquake users, and though he learns a ridiculous amount of great moves, he can only use four at a time, and thus it's usually easy to counter him once you know the moveset. He's not Uber because he can't overpower entire teams like Garchomp or Manaphy can.

Also, don't be ridiculous about Ho-Oh and Lugia. I shouldn't even explain it. Seriously.
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  #5  
Old 03-30-2010, 02:36 PM
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Default Re: "Why is that Pokemon an Uber?"

Don't forget Garchomp's massive Sand Veil hack. Got a sandstorm going? Good news! Your Garchomp has a 1 in 5 chance of dodging an Ice Beam, thereby leaving that Yache Berry for another day!

Seriously, when Garchomp was around, to be 100% sure of preventing a Garchomp sweep through your team, you needed to bring 3 Pokemon that were checks. THREE! That's half your team! Needless to say it severely centralised the metagame, especially the list of Pokemon that fit the criteria are short. Weavile... Starmie... Vaporeon... Mamoswine... and some say Cloyster (Skill Link Icicle Spear, they said)... and maybe a select few more.

Wobbuffet is the cheapest Pokemon ever to grace OU. Shadow Tag means you can effectively trap a wall or a Choice item user, then proceed to murder them. Encore to lock them into a move, then Mirror Coat or Counter appropriately. Hell, if you could predict, you could just throw out a Counter for a free KO. With proper Wish support, Wobbuffet could go on forever. Encoring a set-up move basically meant a free turn for you -- Bring in a Pokemon that only needs one turn of set-up (coughCharizardcough) and then proceed to set-up while your opponent switches out their Encored mon. WobbaZard (Wobbuffet + Belly Drum Charizard) was ridiculously popular in 3rd gen until Wobbuffet got banned. It was nothing short of devastating.

EDIT: I would also like to shamelessly advertise for my RMT which no one has replied to. Eheh.

I'll answer for Mewtwo as well. Mewtwo was banned since 1st Gen because the Special Stat encompassed Special Attack and Special Defense, meaning that no Special Attack could scratch Mewtwo, the Pokemon with the highest Special in the game. It was also blindingly fast, outspeeding everything in the game except Electrode if I remember correctly. It didn't help that all the Pokemon with high Attack were all utter sloths when it came to the Speed department, so they all got slaughtered. Psychic had unparalleled coverage, hitting everything for neutral, and Psychic was only weak to two types: Bug (of which Twineedle, exclusive to Beedrill, and Pin Missile, exclusive to Jolteon and maybe a few others, NEITHER OF WHICH COULD BE BACKED BY STAB), and Ghost (of which the only move was the 40 Base Power Lick. ..........Yeah.). So Mewtwo was basically a humongous behemoth. Did I mention that Psychic had a 30% chance of dropping the target's Special? Not even poor Chansey could withstand it. It was largely due to Mewtwo and other Psychic-types (Alakazam was a huge offender too, dominating OU) that the Dark and Steel-Types were created, and also the split between Special Attack and Special Defense, as well as freaking Blissey. Unfortunately everyone found out about Mewtwo's pretty monstrous Attack and movepool almost as huge as Mew's and equipped with Swords Dance, it crushed everything anyway.

Mew has Jirachi's stats, but what seperates Mew from Jirachi is that it can do anything you ever dreamed of. That's all you need to know. Baton Pass, Perish Song, Status Spreader, Screener, you name it, Mew can do it. Mew can also pass any stat it wants (more notably the offensive stats and Speed) and thick 404 HP Subs, so yeah.
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Last edited by Starkipraggy; 03-30-2010 at 02:49 PM.
  #6  
Old 03-30-2010, 03:23 PM
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Default Re: "Why is that Pokemon an Uber?"

Quote:
Unfortunately everyone found out about Mewtwo's pretty monstrous Attack and movepool almost as huge as Mew's and equipped with Swords Dance, it crushed everything anyway.
I think you mean curse (:
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  #7  
Old 03-30-2010, 06:31 PM
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Default Re: "Why is that Pokemon an Uber?"

Nice troll thread dood. 2/10

Anyway

Quote:
Wobuffet is Uber because there is no way to outpredict it. It traps everything in the game, and Encore makes it way too easy for him to abuse his high HP to decimate a team's offensive core. I'm glad he's not OU.
Just to add onto this, Tickle Wobbuffet + CB Pursuit user can eliminate anything in the game basically. -6 Pursuit on Skarm does 95% min from CB Tar just to give you a hint at what you are dealing with.

Using this method its so easy to remove counters/checks its unreal.
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  #8  
Old 03-30-2010, 09:52 PM
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Default Re: "Why is that Pokemon an Uber?"

Does anyone know why Entei is NU?
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  #9  
Old 03-30-2010, 10:30 PM
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Default Re: "Why is that Pokemon an Uber?"

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Originally Posted by Akai Shizuku View Post
Does anyone know why Entei is NU?
Because it's pretty poor, all things considered. It's bulky stat line is let down by it's typing, it's physical movepool is pretty shallow, and lacks a decent physical STAB. It's going to get flare blitz from an upcomin event, but arcanine will still outclass it. On the special side, it's not bad but has to compete with houndoom, who has nasty plot and better offensive options. All in all it's just not that good.
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Old 03-31-2010, 03:00 PM
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Default Re: "Why is that Pokemon an Uber?"

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Originally Posted by NTT View Post
Because it's pretty poor, all things considered. It's bulky stat line is let down by it's typing, it's physical movepool is pretty shallow, and lacks a decent physical STAB. It's going to get flare blitz from an upcomin event, but arcanine will still outclass it. On the special side, it's not bad but has to compete with houndoom, who has nasty plot and better offensive options. All in all it's just not that good.
wat Entei will still be outclassed by Arcanine even with Flare Blitz?

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo o

And I thought the dog finally got his day. :(
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Old 03-31-2010, 03:37 PM
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Default Re: "Why is that Pokemon an Uber?"

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wat Entei will still be outclassed by Arcanine even with Flare Blitz?

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo o

And I thought the dog finally got his day. :(
People seem to think so. Arcanine only falls behind slightly in attack and speed, and has the awesome extremespeed to compensate for stat loss. It has two excellent abilities, howl can be used for stat boosting and has thunder fang to maul water types. The recent addition of morning sun is also very handy in UU where SS is rare, and coupled with Intimidate can make for a half-decent bulky set. It's superior SpAtt stat makes mixed sets more appealing on Arcanine too. Entei certainly won't be useless, and stone edge is a useful tool arcanine doesn't have access too, but I personally can't see it usurping arcanine as a physical sweeper. It's like when dragonite got outrage- it's viability jumped way up but salamence still goes round singing "anything you can do I can do better" =P
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  #12  
Old 04-01-2010, 11:13 AM
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Default Re: "Why is that Pokemon an Uber?"

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Originally Posted by NTT View Post
People seem to think so. Arcanine only falls behind slightly in attack and speed, and has the awesome extremespeed to compensate for stat loss. It has two excellent abilities, howl can be used for stat boosting and has thunder fang to maul water types. The recent addition of morning sun is also very handy in UU where SS is rare, and coupled with Intimidate can make for a half-decent bulky set. It's superior SpAtt stat makes mixed sets more appealing on Arcanine too. Entei certainly won't be useless, and stone edge is a useful tool arcanine doesn't have access too, but I personally can't see it usurping arcanine as a physical sweeper. It's like when dragonite got outrage- it's viability jumped way up but salamence still goes round singing "anything you can do I can do better" =P
Nah, Mence can't do Light Screen/Heal Bell/Roost stall effectively, and now that Draggy has Extremespeed from HG/SS, it'll fill a nice niche... which is currently being dominated by Scizor though. @_@

So Entei is just as useless... lol.
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  #13  
Old 04-01-2010, 12:14 PM
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Default Re: "Why is that Pokemon an Uber?"

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Originally Posted by Starkipraggy View Post
Nah, Mence can't do Light Screen/Heal Bell/Roost stall effectively, and now that Draggy has Extremespeed from HG/SS, it'll fill a nice niche... which is currently being dominated by Scizor though. @_@

So Entei is just as useless... lol.
Perhaps it was the wrong choice of song. "Anything outrage allows you to do I can do better" is probably more fitting, since dragonite's support sets don't like outrage's locking effect. It made it a better sweeper, but only in that it brought up closer to Mence's level. Same goes for entei- it's a better sweeper than before, but not better than arcanine. I can see it doing very well in NU though.
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  #14  
Old 04-01-2010, 12:51 PM
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Default Re: "Why is that Pokemon an Uber?"

Yeah, I guess.

Let's go into why Kyogre and Groudon are Uber.

Kyogre: With Scarf, this monster will crush your Pokemon with Rain-boosted, STAB Water Spout, which comes up to about 475 Base Power, almost as powerful as Explosion, and it also comes from a humongous Base 140 Special Attack. Let's not even talk about Specs. Drizzle is a ridiculous ability since auto-Rain gives you the ability to use Thunder freely, and also allow Kingdra to dominate instantly. The Calm Mind sets are ridiculous as well, ignoring any Special Attack, even if super-effective, then killing everything in sight.

Groudon: Groudon is a massive tank, and a huge check to Kyogre if it switches in on it. It's STAB Earthquake does massive damage, though not on the level of Kyogre. Its Drought ability is extremely useful, basically eliminating one weakness, and also instantly wiping out some strategies (such as Swift-Swim sweeping). Swords Dance turns it into a huge danger, and it is also capable of playing support and crushing team cores due to the huge Defense.
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