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  #46  
Old 10-01-2010, 02:24 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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Originally Posted by Hassan_Descartes_AbdAllah View Post
If you are talking about absolute mathematical proof about these, then there are none, because that cannot even be applied here. Things like socilogy, politics and religious doctrines, they cannot be proven with mathematical evidence, nor empirical one. At the end of the day its a matter of belief, but- and its a big but- that belief need to be justified by Intellectual means. Sure, there might not be any proof for it, but there might be every pragmatic reason to believe in it. Please refer to my first post in this particular thread for more info on this.



I wonder if this thread is proper to answer that question, why do we not discuss this elsewhere? Open another thread perhaps?



Well you're wrong, Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) did perform miracles, but that is completely besides the issue. Whether someone performed (the past tense is important) any miracle or not doesnt have any bearing on the matters truth. We have Prophets all over the Bbile performing signs and miracles, this doesnt ipso facto prove they are Genuine Prophets of God. The reason is obvious, you are not able to verify whether what those authors were saying about Miracles are true or not. You cannot go back in time machine (at least not todays age) to check if those people were legit.

Secondly, whether Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) was Divine or not this true is completely besides the issue. A person claiming divinity doesnt show hes legit in claiming that. We have had loads of people from all over the world claiming Divinity. This does not add a salt-grains intellectual weight to their claims.



First off, there are proofs, and there are intellectual basis, and people believed him out of the evidence he brought with him, as well as the clarity and sensibility in his message. Islaam is kind of a package deal: there are multiple "facets" to it that is intellectually appealing. A person can claim to be intellectually legit if he picks any of these, as long as his motivations for picking Islaam as a religion is legit.





You're very much wrong. Again, should we discuss this issue right here in this thread or open another one?
I think another one on the intellectual basis of religion in general would be appropriate. We are kind of derailing the discussion.
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  #47  
Old 10-01-2010, 03:51 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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I think another one on the intellectual basis of religion in general would be appropriate. We are kind of derailing the discussion.
Indeed. But give me a couple of days. First off Im busy with studies, secondly, it might take a time to compile the pieces of the evidences to make one coherent paper.
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  #48  
Old 10-02-2010, 01:53 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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Many people dont think about this, but faith requires reasonable justification as well. Not that you need to write these on paper and make a long argument to believe, but without reasoning, there is no justification for anything, not even faith.

When Jesus(peace be upon him) came to this earth, he performed miracles for this exact reason. Just going around the place and telling people to have faith wouldnt make sense at all. He needed to give Reason for his people to believe. His miracles spoke out thus: "These are Signs that this man has been sent by God. So believe in what he says, for this belief is justified with reason." The Christian Tradition conformed to this until very recently.

Same goes for the Prophets preceding him. God always sends His Prophets armed with Miracles and Divine Signs, so that people know Truth from Falsehood. Otherwise every weirdo on the street could come up to people and ask them to have faith in whatever "Divine" message have been "revealed" to them.

For nearly two thousand years, the Church held that Religion is based on Intellect, and not merely Faith. This gave rise to Savants such as St. Thomas Aquinas or St. Augustine. "Faith is Enough Reason" is just a new thing people have invented: it has no actual basis in the Doctrinal teachings of any religion.

If God wants us to believe, He would give us reason to believe in it. Thats the Crux of the Matter.
That is because until recently, people generally accepted that said signs, in fact, happened. In a more skeptical society, we know that there is no reason to believe that the "proofs" the Church has given us, in fact, ever occurred. The Bible is a book detailing the history and customs of Christianity. None of what it has can be considered evidence.

"Faith is enough reason" is a new thing that people have invented because it is the only justification remaining for them. Past claims of miracles and visions don't work anymore. We are skeptical enough today to realize that those claims have never been provable. People in past ages were not. "Faith is enough reason" is not some newfangled thing people invented just because they could, they invented it because the old justifications weren't working anymore.

Hence, religion still has no justification.

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Otherwise every weirdo on the street could come up to people and ask them to have faith in whatever "Divine" message have been "revealed" to them.
Weirdos do. People believe. For all we know, those Prophets were said weirdos.

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First off, there are proofs, and there are intellectual basis, and people believed him out of the evidence he brought with him, as well as the clarity and sensibility in his message. Islaam is kind of a package deal: there are multiple "facets" to it that is intellectually appealing. A person can claim to be intellectually legit if he picks any of these, as long as his motivations for picking Islaam as a religion is legit.
I suppose it would be more appropriate for you to provide examples in a different thread.
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  #49  
Old 10-02-2010, 08:33 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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That is because until recently, people generally accepted that said signs, in fact, happened. In a more skeptical society, we know that there is no reason to believe that the "proofs" the Church has given us, in fact, ever occurred. The Bible is a book detailing the history and customs of Christianity. None of what it has can be considered evidence.
The point I was trying to make was not that the claims of the Church held water. Rather I was basically implying that this is the claim the religious authorities were making, so we need to consider that instead of the other proposition. "Faith is based on, well, faith" is an innovation and does not comply with religious teachings, so people need to realize reality and get out of this mindset. If they do not, then it only shows that they are being hypocritical.

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Weirdos do. People believe. For all we know, those Prophets were said weirdos.
This argument was aimed at the christian who claims religion is based on faith, and not agnostics or anti-religionists. Basically saying "do you consider yourself in the ranks of the followers of these weirdos? If not, then change your mindset, and accept reality."

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I suppose it would be more appropriate for you to provide examples in a different thread.
Indeed I intend to, but I am more busy than I primarily thought. I have university admission exams coming after one month, so my life is basically centered around that. Secondly, compiling the pieces of evidences and making a coherent post is time consuming. I will try and open the desired thread as soon as possible, if God wills.
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  #50  
Old 10-11-2010, 11:50 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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Originally Posted by Legend collector View Post
Genesis 1
1; In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


best answer!!
This^

But we can all agree that at first there was physically nothing. (God, being spiritual does not apply to that.)

So riddle me this: If there was nothing at first, how did the dust get there to make the Big Bang? And even if that did take place, how could living things come into existence without creation or reproduction.

(This is not meant to sound like 'hahaha, proved you wrong', I just really want to know the Atheists' take on this.)
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  #51  
Old 10-12-2010, 02:32 AM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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Originally Posted by Male Snorunt View Post
This^

But we can all agree that at first there was physically nothing. (God, being spiritual does not apply to that.)

So riddle me this: If there was nothing at first, how did the dust get there to make the Big Bang? And even if that did take place, how could living things come into existence without creation or reproduction.

(This is not meant to sound like 'hahaha, proved you wrong', I just really want to know the Atheists' take on this.)
To the first one, Big Bang theory doesn't hold that at first there was nothing. Leading belief says that it started with an enormous... well, everything. A great big ball consisting of all the matter in existence. For some reason, it exploded, and thus, the Big Bang.

As for the second, no one knows for certain, but consider that organic life boils down to carbon-based chemical compounds arranged in a complex structure. It only had to react once, in one place in the world, and then asexual reproduction takes over, evolution begins, fast forward about 3.5 billion years and we're here, fully evolved sentient discussing how it all started. Poetic, n'est pas?
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  #52  
Old 10-13-2010, 08:56 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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Originally Posted by Lord Khajmer View Post
To the first one, Big Bang theory doesn't hold that at first there was nothing. Leading belief says that it started with an enormous... well, everything. A great big ball consisting of all the matter in existence. For some reason, it exploded, and thus, the Big Bang.

As for the second, no one knows for certain, but consider that organic life boils down to carbon-based chemical compounds arranged in a complex structure. It only had to react once, in one place in the world, and then asexual reproduction takes over, evolution begins, fast forward about 3.5 billion years and we're here, fully evolved sentient discussing how it all started. Poetic, n'est pas?
Well, how did that big ball get there? And then you say, "for some reason, it exploded" That's exactly what I'm asking about. Why did it explode?

Besides, how would an explosion create matter? They don't now, and since you don't believe in divinities, surely to atheists it was no different back then. And if it didn't, then what actual significance did it have? Fire? We've had fire and explosions for the 4,000 years Earth has existed, and I have never seen it spawn any new universes.
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  #53  
Old 10-13-2010, 09:59 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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Originally Posted by Lord Khajmer View Post
To the first one, Big Bang theory doesn't hold that at first there was nothing. Leading belief says that it started with an enormous... well, everything. A great big ball consisting of all the matter in existence. For some reason, it exploded, and thus, the Big Bang.
But that completely ignores the laws of thermodynamics as we know it.
  • First law of thermodynamics: The internal energy of an isolated system is constant.

If there was an infinitely massive (or minute) amount of mass which is, theoretically all the mass within the universe in one single point, then there is no outside force on it which would cause a massive reaction. If the Big Bang theory, currently the most credible scientific non-religious idea on creation, is true, then there would need to be an outside force to cause a mass reaction. In my opinion, the existence of God (yes, I am Christian) allows for an outside force which holds the most intrinsic laws of matter to be intact.

The only way for an outside force to be taken out of the equation here would be to allow for the flow of work energy, heat energy, or mass energy into the system. In modern physics, the only systems which allow for change regardless of outside force would be for an open or closed system. However, this can't be the case because an open or closed system can only occur within a larger system.

We consider a glass of water on a table an open system, because a few independent open systems can influence the system of the glass of water. For example, the air temperature or the pressure around the glass can influence the properties and interactions of that glass of water. However, the universe is the ultimate isolated body. As far as we can prove, there is nothing that influences what goes on in the universe. The universe, as it's own physical body, has a constant amount of energy which reacts in and of itself. No energy flows in or out of the universe.

Quote:
As for the second, no one knows for certain, but consider that organic life boils down to carbon-based chemical compounds arranged in a complex structure. It only had to react once, in one place in the world, and then asexual reproduction takes over, evolution begins, fast forward about 3.5 billion years and we're here, fully evolved sentient discussing how it all started. Poetic, n'est pas?
Poetic, perhaps. But if everything boils down to the arrangement of carbon, actually, not even that, the very properties of carbon as a basic element, there has to be some grand scheme of things which we can't comprehend. If something is so beautiful, is it really so unreasonable to infer that someone made it that way?

Even Einstein said "We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books . It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranges and obeying certain laws, but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations."
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  #54  
Old 10-14-2010, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Male Snorunt View Post
Well, how did that big ball get there? And then you say, "for some reason, it exploded" That's exactly what I'm asking about. Why did it explode?
The idea is that the big ball of matter was always there. My personal theory is that there was another universe before this one, and another before that one, and another before that one, and so on. The logical chain of events follows that whatever force which causes the universe to perpetually accelerate runs out, gravity causes all the matter to attract to each other as physics states it must do, causing it to, after an impossible to measure length of time, end up in that original ball. Then something triggers an explosion, and boom, universe.

Quote:
Besides, how would an explosion create matter? They don't now, and since you don't believe in divinities, surely to atheists it was no different back then. And if it didn't, then what actual significance did it have? Fire? We've had fire and explosions for the 4,000 years Earth has existed, and I have never seen it spawn any new universes.
>Implying I don't believe in God.
That aside, the Big Bang didn't create anything. Take a look at any video of an object exploding. What happens? Is anything created or destroyed? No. The force of the explosion scatters the materials of the object. So too with the Big Bang. All the matter in the universe already existed in this ball form, and when it blew up, all that matter was scattered across the inky blackness of space. Gravity kicked in to form galaxies, stars, planets, etc., and here we are today.
P.S. the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, not 4000 years. Proven by science.

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But that completely ignores the laws of thermodynamics as we know it.
  • First law of thermodynamics: The internal energy of an isolated system is constant.
Keyword here is "as we know it." The laws of physics aren't immutable, they're our best guess based on our observations of the universe.

Quote:
If there was an infinitely massive (or minute) amount of mass which is, theoretically all the mass within the universe in one single point, then there is no outside force on it which would cause a massive reaction. If the Big Bang theory, currently the most credible scientific non-religious idea on creation, is true, then there would need to be an outside force to cause a mass reaction. In my opinion, the existence of God (yes, I am Christian) allows for an outside force which holds the most intrinsic laws of matter to be intact.
First, clearing something up, it's not a non-religious idea, as you just proved by stating that God allows for this outside force to cause the Big Bang (a believe I share). Secondly, we have no idea how it happened from a scientific perspective. It was nearly 15 billion years ago, our own planet isn't even a third of that age. Unless we can invent a time machine and go back to see it, we're not going to know how it happened, whether it was the intervention of God or some other cause we can't even conceive, and frankly to try and convince anyone that one idea of how it did is the most logical answer.

Quote:
The only way for an outside force to be taken out of the equation here would be to allow for the flow of work energy, heat energy, or mass energy into the system. In modern physics, the only systems which allow for change regardless of outside force would be for an open or closed system. However, this can't be the case because an open or closed system can only occur within a larger system.

We consider a glass of water on a table an open system, because a few independent open systems can influence the system of the glass of water. For example, the air temperature or the pressure around the glass can influence the properties and interactions of that glass of water. However, the universe is the ultimate isolated body. As far as we can prove, there is nothing that influences what goes on in the universe. The universe, as it's own physical body, has a constant amount of energy which reacts in and of itself. No energy flows in or out of the universe.
You're making one mistake though. You're treating the universe as a closed system as we would think of a ball suspended in a bubble. As though there's order. We're talking about the entire universe here, the very embodiment of chaos. It stands to reason that the Universe Ball wasn't a perfectly ordered body, it was most likely volatile and prone to explode at anything. And even if you do consider it like you would any other closed system, it was prone to one particular force which could exist outside of it. Why? Because it's neither matter nor energy. It's called time.

Think of the Universe Ball as a star. A very, very large star. And by its very nature, it's burning up certain molecules in order to maintain a certain energy. When stars of a decent size run out of fuel, they blow up. Likewise, when this very large star ran out of fuel, it blew up. And before you pull a black hole on me, I'll point out that stars of different mass do different things. The largest we've observed become black holes. This one? It would be several billion times larger than the largest star to ever grace our skies. Who knows what it would do on exploding.

[
Quote:
Poetic, perhaps. But if everything boils down to the arrangement of carbon, actually, not even that, the very properties of carbon as a basic element, there has to be some grand scheme of things which we can't comprehend. If something is so beautiful, is it really so unreasonable to infer that someone made it that way?
Entirely plausible, and I would agree, not necessarily with the course of evolution being a plan, but at least its beginnings. However, that's not necessarily the case. It's just as plausible that it happened out of nowhere, completely by accident.

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Even Einstein said "We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books . It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranges and obeying certain laws, but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations."
Yeah, to actually understand that quote you need to understand Einstein's meaning for God. You perceive it as him saying "the reason for the basic laws of the universe is God." His belief was that the title of God applied to those basic laws themselves. Gravity, physics, thermodynamics, 1+1=2, all of that is what he considered God, rather than a personal, sentient being.
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  #55  
Old 10-14-2010, 01:37 AM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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You're making one mistake though. You're treating the universe as a closed system as we would think of a ball suspended in a bubble. As though there's order. We're talking about the entire universe here, the very embodiment of chaos. It stands to reason that the Universe Ball wasn't a perfectly ordered body, it was most likely volatile and prone to explode at anything. And even if you do consider it like you would any other closed system, it was prone to one particular force which could exist outside of it. Why? Because it's neither matter nor energy. It's called time.
So you're saying time is a force independent of the universe?

Quote:
Think of the Universe Ball as a star. A very, very large star. And by its very nature, it's burning up certain molecules in order to maintain a certain energy. When stars of a decent size run out of fuel, they blow up. Likewise, when this very large star ran out of fuel, it blew up. And before you pull a black hole on me, I'll point out that stars of different mass do different things. The largest we've observed become black holes. This one? It would be several billion times larger than the largest star to ever grace our skies. Who knows what it would do on exploding.
That's not a good analogy for the Big Bang. In the case of a star, the star had to form at some point, it had to contract from pre-existing hydrogen clusters in space. The continuous expanding/contracting universe model has even less evidence to it than theories about human life coming from other planets on the backs of asteroids (which is known as the Panspermia or Extraterrestrial Origin of Life Scenario). Eventually there has to be a beginning, for no mass comes out of nothing.
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Old 10-14-2010, 02:26 AM
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So you're saying time is a force independent of the universe?
It's neither matter nor energy, so yes, I'm saying time is a force independent of the physical universe.

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That's not a good analogy for the Big Bang. In the case of a star, the star had to form at some point, it had to contract from pre-existing hydrogen clusters in space. The continuous expanding/contracting universe model has even less evidence to it than theories about human life coming from other planets on the backs of asteroids (which is known as the Panspermia or Extraterrestrial Origin of Life Scenario). Eventually there has to be a beginning, for no mass comes out of nothing.
Who says that the mass had to come into existence at all? Who's to say that if you went back infinity years in time you wouldn't find the same matter that exists now. Here's the deal. We can not physically know what there was before the Big Bang. Why? Because all the physical material currently in existence is in the state of post-Big Bang. Whatever it was before then, there's no evidence of it now. So you're right, the continuous expanding/contracting universe model doesn't have any evidence behind it. Neither does God kickstarting the Big Bang. Personally, I say both. But then that's just me.
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  #57  
Old 10-14-2010, 02:51 AM
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P.S. the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, not 4000 years. Proven by Science

Keyword here is "as we know it." The laws of physics aren't immutable, they're our best guess based on our observations of the universe.
Right here you contradict your own point. The Earth could be any age, because science is based only on what we currently know. You can't really prove that 'fossils washed up onto the shore are a million billion years old', just as you can't prove that matter isn't created somewhere in any universe.

Also, you have yet to give a reason for either how all of the matter and energy got there in the first place. If there are no creators, there can be no creations.
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Old 10-14-2010, 03:32 AM
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Right here you contradict your own point. The Earth could be any age, because science is based only on what we currently know. You can't really prove that 'fossils washed up onto the shore are a million billion years old', just as you can't prove that matter isn't created somewhere in any universe.

Also, you have yet to give a reason for either how all of the matter and energy got there in the first place. If there are no creators, there can be no creations.
All right then, allow me to rephrase. The earth is at least 4.5 billion years old, based on samples from both the earth itself and meteorites. At the absolute, absolute least the oldest rock formations on the earth are 4 billion years old, so obviously the earth is at least as old as that. And furthermore, settled human civilization is 10,000 years old, and the human race older than that, so 4000 is impossible based on actual records of civilization.

And as for where the matter and energy came from, you have yet to provide me with any evidence indicating that that matter and energy haven't always existed, and must have been created at some point.
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  #59  
Old 10-15-2010, 09:25 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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Right here you contradict your own point. The Earth could be any age, because science is based only on what we currently know. You can't really prove that 'fossils washed up onto the shore are a million billion years old', just as you can't prove that matter isn't created somewhere in any universe.

Also, you have yet to give a reason for either how all of the matter and energy got there in the first place. If there are no creators, there can be no creations.
Yes, we cannot prove the Earth in 4.5 billion years old. But we can prove that it is not 4000 years old, because that would contradict what we observe in the decay of radioactive isotopes.

Also, what basis do you have to say that creations must have creators?

The nihilist argument won't get you anywhere either. True, no one can prove you wrong if you argue that all human knowledge and logic is worthless. But I can say with 99% certainty that you don't believe that. Hence, if you can't even argue from your own belief system, then your belief system can't be worth much.
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Old 10-15-2010, 09:34 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

and going on Lusankya's point, the big thing we have about our history is the Egyptians over 6000 years ago, or 4000BC....

That totally demolishes any theory that the earth is 4000 years old, plus all the scientific proof, evolution and so on. Dinosaurs being dead proof, and crocodiles/alligators being living proof of how old the earth is...
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