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  #1  
Old 06-07-2011, 03:51 PM
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Default The "promiscuous woman" walk

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First of all, I used the term "promiscuous woman" obviously because the 4 letter word associated with it is censored on pe2k. Not that it matters.

This was basically in response to a pretty important matter where there was a police department in the US that essentially blamed a woman for dressing like said 4 letter word, resulting in her rape.

I have some problems with that issue:

1. Rape (in a non-date rape/drunk sense) is of course not actually about sex. It's about power. This is why a majority of the victims know the instigator of such an act to begin with. Even under the circumstance of date rape (which is by far the most common form of rape in the US), the instigator has much power over the other person.

2. Calling one said 4 letter word is essentially blaming the victim.

3. While dressing provocatively is more likely than not a risk factor for rape, one must also note that looking weak also is a risk factor. Secondarily, women are driven by hormonal interactions within their brains: a woman is more likely to dress provocatively near her menses by sheer hormones. However, one should also note that the biggest risk factor is drinking: specifically the men drinking.

4. People also fail to realize that clothes for women are far more provocative than ever before. Culturally speaking, young women don't actually have non-provocative attire if they shop in places where young women shop (such as say Garage).

5. Culture is an important aspect of this case in itself. American culture still has a far lower amount of sexual assaults than developing countries in general. However, we should note that we have a culture of blaming the victim as well. Thus it should be something to reflect back upon.

Does the walk work? Sure: it provides awareness to a problem. I don't see an issue with that at all.
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Old 06-07-2011, 04:49 PM
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Default Re: The "promiscuous woman" walk

The reason the clothes is more "provocative" than before is because women have never had this much freedom, ever before.

And of course one has to be proud and confident.
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Old 06-07-2011, 06:29 PM
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Default Re: The "promiscuous woman" walk

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
The reason the clothes is more "provocative" than before is because women have never had this much freedom, ever before.

And of course one has to be proud and confident.
Sure, but the spectrum is shrinking. The influence of popular culture is a huge reason, considering that it's telling girls that sex, drugs, and Britney Spears are what one should be striving for. Clothes are an extension of that phenomenon.

I mean, heck some of the cosplay you see is more conservative than normal fashion nowadays. o_O
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Old 06-10-2011, 08:06 AM
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Default Re: The "promiscuous woman" walk

Provocative clothing has lots its meaning in today's world in my opinion. Who are women actually provoking by dressing up in these 'provocative clothes'? The people who dress in 'standard clothes'? The men in general? The government? The general public? Nowadays there are so many clothing brands and styles that can be considered into the definition of provocative that they've lost their meaning. Teens trying to stand out from the crowd with this clothing have only formed a huge mass of their own. Young women who dress in these clothes have nearly formed a sub-culture in which older and older women take part in. It's not like dressing up in 'provocative clothes' is that much different from dressing in a bikini, which was considered provocative a few decades backwards but is now casual.

Rape in Western world countries is such a minor problem compared to developing, third world countries that it's not even amusing. It's wrong no matter where it occurs but I don't see how dressing up in a certain way and making a huge walk scene raises any positive awareness. Promoting something by attaching a negatively charged word to the matter promoted is generally not a good way of promoting. Would you promote homosexual rights with a 'Huge F****t Parade' rather than the current current Gay Pride Parade?

So, in my opinion, yes. The walk raises awareness but in the wrong way. The victims are the problem only as long as they themselves consider them to be part of the problem. Advertising your 'provocative' style publicly only further raises people's image of the victim being a cause to the rape problem as well.
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Old 06-21-2011, 04:26 AM
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Default Re: The "promiscuous woman" walk

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Originally Posted by IT View Post
Provocative clothing has lots its meaning in today's world in my opinion. Who are women actually provoking by dressing up in these 'provocative clothes'? The people who dress in 'standard clothes'? The men in general? The government? The general public? Nowadays there are so many clothing brands and styles that can be considered into the definition of provocative that they've lost their meaning. Teens trying to stand out from the crowd with this clothing have only formed a huge mass of their own. Young women who dress in these clothes have nearly formed a sub-culture in which older and older women take part in. It's not like dressing up in 'provocative clothes' is that much different from dressing in a bikini, which was considered provocative a few decades backwards but is now casual.
Agreed. It's interesting how things have changed. And I think I've illustrated the problem of culture in general as well. I'm not entirely sure why this is the case though.

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Originally Posted by IT View Post
Rape in Western world countries is such a minor problem compared to developing, third world countries that it's not even amusing. It's wrong no matter where it occurs but I don't see how dressing up in a certain way and making a huge walk scene raises any positive awareness. Promoting something by attaching a negatively charged word to the matter promoted is generally not a good way of promoting. Would you promote homosexual rights with a 'Huge F****t Parade' rather than the current current Gay Pride Parade?
The thing is that at a grassroots and reactionary level, it should at least raise awareness of the problem close to home and allow young men and women who were forced into coercion to come out. In that sense, I think this is a positive aspect of the parade itself, as some of the rape victims do in fact join the walk.

It wasn't meant to solve the problem of rape anywhere outside of the US. I don't think that's a bad thing either. Cystic fibrosis is a freaking rare disease (1 in thousands), but we still research it for those few that are affected, and potentially develop new technologies to save a wider range of people. In this case, perhaps if it helps even 1 person come out against their rapist, it would be positive. I don't know, perhaps we might learn a thing or two about the power of people. Perhaps I'm optimistic as well.

Well Gay Pride is ironically identical in application. Remember that gay was an offensive word prior to its popular usage not as a derogatory term for homosexuals, but rather as a term for homosexuals.

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So, in my opinion, yes. The walk raises awareness but in the wrong way. The victims are the problem only as long as they themselves consider them to be part of the problem. Advertising your 'provocative' style publicly only further raises people's image of the victim being a cause to the rape problem as well.
That I think is a fair assessment of the issue of the walk as well. It's interesting to note that the general public would more likely than not brush it off like the gay pride parade (which ironically is very similar in it that a lot of the men and women wear barely anything either).
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Old 06-21-2011, 07:51 AM
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Default Re: The "promiscuous woman" walk

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
Agreed. It's interesting how things have changed. And I think I've illustrated the problem of culture in general as well. I'm not entirely sure why this is the case though.



The thing is that at a grassroots and reactionary level, it should at least raise awareness of the problem close to home and allow young men and women who were forced into coercion to come out. In that sense, I think this is a positive aspect of the parade itself, as some of the rape victims do in fact join the walk.

It wasn't meant to solve the problem of rape anywhere outside of the US. I don't think that's a bad thing either. Cystic fibrosis is a freaking rare disease (1 in thousands), but we still research it for those few that are affected, and potentially develop new technologies to save a wider range of people. In this case, perhaps if it helps even 1 person come out against their rapist, it would be positive. I don't know, perhaps we might learn a thing or two about the power of people. Perhaps I'm optimistic as well.

Well Gay Pride is ironically identical in application. Remember that gay was an offensive word prior to its popular usage not as a derogatory term for homosexuals, but rather as a term for homosexuals.



That I think is a fair assessment of the issue of the walk as well. It's interesting to note that the general public would more likely than not brush it off like the gay pride parade (which ironically is very similar in it that a lot of the men and women wear barely anything either).
And who do you think sets what pop culture is? The people.

Um, gay originally meant happy and uplifting, not homosexual, so, no, it was never a derogatory term, ****** was.

Point is, no, clothes are not getting more suggestive, that is Mormon and Muslim talk. It does not bring about rape, as rape was more prominent before modern ages. If I was a bigot like on Gran Turino, I'd tell you to get the fk off my lawn.
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Old 06-21-2011, 03:46 PM
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Default Re: The "promiscuous woman" walk

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
And who do you think sets what pop culture is? The people.
Hollywood. Industry. To think that people are little more than ants in a propaganda-filled environment is silly.

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
Um, gay originally meant happy and uplifting, not homosexual, so, no, it was never a derogatory term, ****** was.
Gay is obviously a negative term. People still use it in this fashion.
"Oh man I got grounded" "that's gay"

The fact of the matter is that the reason why it became a negative term was because it got associated with homosexuals, and people began changing the connotation behind it. Hence to change it back, the homosexual community started using it in a positive manner.

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Point is, no, clothes are not getting more suggestive, that is Mormon and Muslim talk. It does not bring about rape, as rape was more prominent before modern ages. If I was a bigot like on Gran Turino, I'd tell you to get the fk off my lawn.
I don't think anybody's arguing that clothes are in their all-time low in terms of the amount of cloth that exists on a woman's body. I mean, knee-high skirts were considered risque like 50 years ago. Now we have wearing miniskirts as a norm. So yes, it has been more suggestive even if we compare to fashion 10 years ago. Mormon/Muslim talk is specifying that wearing these clothes are an act of infidels, which obviously is not my argument. I simply state what is and left it at that.

One cannot deny that wearing less clothing is more likely to provoke drunk men into doing stupid things. Until we fix the problem of alcohol, sexy clothes will always give a higher risk of being raped than not, even if it isn't that big of a difference due to the sheer little amount of rape that is random. Seriously, it doesn't matter if it was more prominent in the modern ages that it exists now in this form as well as the more common "assailant is someone the girl/boy knows" form.
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Old 06-21-2011, 04:22 PM
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Default Re: The "promiscuous woman" walk

From what I see, Kenny is right that the people in Hollywood and such are basically ruling over pop culture. They wanted to make costumes that were more appealing to certain audiences, so they made these eye-catching, barely-anything-on-there outfits. Others in the industry see it as a sort of baby cash cow or something like that, and copy what they're doing. Soon, all the biggest names in the entertainment industry are dressing like that to try and steal the spotlight from one another, although not explicitly.

Meanwhile, in the rest of wherever, girls are seeing their idols scantily clad, guys are getting huge boners from seeing those pop stars on stage or in movies like that, and the trends start to spread into the more common people's lives. Soon, that special outfit is now mainstream, and now every girl is wearing booty shorts that are so small you can call them underpants.

That's pretty much how it works, imo. If everyone started wearing togas, for example, and it just happened to look good, then perhaps every teenager will be wearing a toga around. It's really the designers up top that have the most power in how pop culture is.

Now that I have pretty much nothing else to contribute right now, I want to see all men wearing nothing but speedos and sports bras outside because it is extremely sexy.
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Old 06-21-2011, 04:34 PM
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Default Re: The "promiscuous woman" walk

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
The thing is that at a grassroots and reactionary level, it should at least raise awareness of the problem close to home and allow young men and women who were forced into coercion to come out. In that sense, I think this is a positive aspect of the parade itself, as some of the rape victims do in fact join the walk.
I understand the meaning behind the walk. An effectictive way to raise awareness, that I can agree to. My main point was just that maybe provoking isn't the best way to solve problems, which are accused of being caused by provocation. Seems like a classic eye-for-an-eye situation and those generally lead nowhere.

The aim was to get positive reactions and raise awereness of sexual assaults against women dressing like this, and as the organizers of the walk said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlutWalk Melbourne
If nothing else, we hope that SlutWalk Melbourne — and its interstate counterparts — will lead people to think a little more deeply about their use of language: if they use the term "****" against people, why and what do they think it means?
So, it was worth a try, I guess. Trying is the most important thing anyways when it comes to solving problems as major as sexual assaults.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices
Um, gay originally meant happy and uplifting, not homosexual, so, no, it was never a derogatory term, ****** was.
Not only are you going completely off-topic, you are also wrong. In case the word that is censored starts with an 'F', I would suggest you take a look into the world of dictionaries before going on a rant about its original degrading meaning. For example, the food named as such was first printed in a dictionary in 1851 whereas the derogatory word was first printed in 1914.

Also Kenny, hi. You're still as cool as you used to be.
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Old 06-21-2011, 05:13 PM
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Default Re: The "promiscuous woman" walk

IMHO, women can dress however they want, just so long as they do the following:

- Don't dress into something that makes themselves look ridiculous.
- Don't let their hormones take over all of their rational thinking.
- Keep away from anyone that they might feel uncomfortable being around with.

If only all of those women can do these things then I don't see any reason for this walk.
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Old 06-21-2011, 08:25 PM
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Default Re: The "promiscuous woman" walk

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
Hollywood. Industry. To think that people are little more than ants in a propaganda-filled environment is silly.


I don't think anybody's arguing that clothes are in their all-time low in terms of the amount of cloth that exists on a woman's body. I mean, knee-high skirts were considered risque like 50 years ago. Now we have wearing miniskirts as a norm. So yes, it has been more suggestive even if we compare to fashion 10 years ago. Mormon/Muslim talk is specifying that wearing these clothes are an act of infidels, which obviously is not my argument. I simply state what is and left it at that.

One cannot deny that wearing less clothing is more likely to provoke drunk men into doing stupid things. Until we fix the problem of alcohol, sexy clothes will always give a higher risk of being raped than not, even if it isn't that big of a difference due to the sheer little amount of rape that is random. Seriously, it doesn't matter if it was more prominent in the middle (I think you meant middle) ages that it exists now in this form as well as the more common "assailant is someone the girl/boy knows" form.
People run those things, people decide what is popular, people decide to listen.

I can deny it, and I will. Rape was more common 35, 40, 50, 60, 70 years ago than it is now. Want to know why? Women have rights. It has everything to do with the argument. No, rape rates have not increased, they have and will not increase(d), they have decreased. That proves that the way women dress have very little effect on the amount of rape.

Alcohol affects everyone differently. It does not make everyone a wh0r3, or a sex craving maniac, so alcohol is not necessarily the problem, rather, it is sexism that is the problem.

Thus, the argument is void.
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Old 06-21-2011, 08:52 PM
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Default Re: The "promiscuous woman" walk

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Originally Posted by IT View Post
I understand the meaning behind the walk. An effectictive way to raise awareness, that I can agree to. My main point was just that maybe provoking isn't the best way to solve problems, which are accused of being caused by provocation. Seems like a classic eye-for-an-eye situation and those generally lead nowhere.

The aim was to get positive reactions and raise awereness of sexual assaults against women dressing like this, and as the organizers of the walk said:

So, it was worth a try, I guess. Trying is the most important thing anyways when it comes to solving problems as major as sexual assaults.

Also Kenny, hi. You're still as cool as you used to be.
Certainly more useful than doing nothing at all as the alternative anyways. Thanks. ;)

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
People run those things, people decide what is popular, people decide to listen.
You seem to confuse the idea of culture and people. We are nothing but slaves to culture, as we learn such a thing while we're young and malleable. It becomes innate in us to follow popular culture in such a way. Why do you think 12/13 year old girls become huge fans of Paris Hilton and called her "an inspiration" and a "role model"?

Don't kid yourself about the power of culture. In the 1980's a psychiatrist that taught me some stuff told me of an alarming trend with the question, "what do you want to be when you grow up?"
Prior to 1980's: we hear things like "doctor" or "fireman" and what not. Their role models are real human beings with real stories behind them.
After 1980's: "rich"

Culture is learned, and thus we are in an era where Hollywood has become a rather potent vector to such things. No longer are we influence by writers like Katherine Mansfield. We're much more influenced by what Brad Pitt's doing. And that's all there is to it. Skinner was right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
I can deny it, and I will. Rape was more common 35, 40, 50, 60, 70 years ago than it is now. Want to know why? Women have rights. It has everything to do with the argument. No, rape rates have not increased, they have and will not increase(d), they have decreased. That proves that the way women dress have very little effect on the amount of rape.

Alcohol affects everyone differently. It does not make everyone a wh0r3, or a sex craving maniac, so alcohol is not necessarily the problem, rather, it is sexism that is the problem.

Thus, the argument is void.
"Acquaintance rape" is still the most common form of rape today. I think you misinterpret my words, since I wasn't arguing about changes in rates of rape in the past than now, mainly because I've already said that this is irrelevant as long as that number is greater than 0. Women rights, undeniably, does have some positive impact on this problem as women is more likely to speak out in this day and age than before.

Alcohol is the #1 drug for date rape and acquaintance rape. It's a drug designed to cause disinhibition in people. This is the mechanism of effect of alcohol and is an undeniable fact. So yes, alcohol is a huge part of the problem when you on top of that stack the culture of sexually aggressive men when drunk. This remains that sexy clothes will undeniably raise the probability that intoxicated people would do unsavory things (and interestingly, the group most likely to do stupid things while drunk are also the group most likely to get drunk in the first place). It's literally the most scientific thing I've typed in the entire thread. >.>

Last edited by Kenny_C.002; 06-21-2011 at 08:56 PM.
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