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  #31  
Old 07-09-2004, 09:30 AM
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Default Re: WAR SEASON III - Debate Section

Aliens do exist. Matter of fact, they've even visited us.

In 1947, the French anthropologist Marcel Griaule had been studying African culture, and had been living with and studying the Dogon tribe, a group of people in West Africa, for 16 of the 19 years he was there. The Dogon live in a place called Bandiagara, in the nation of Mali.

Accepted and respected by the tribe, the Dogon elders decided to share some of their knowledge with Griaule, a candid mythology that not many of the normal tribespeople were even aware of. This knowledge had been passed down in the oral traditions of the Dogon for centuries.

What the Dogon elders detailed was a story of how the Nommo, an amphibious race of scaled humanoids, who came to them somewhere around 12,000-8,000 BC and taught them some basics of medicine and technology, thus beginning civilization on Earth.

What lends great credence to these claims is the Dogon's cosmological intelligence. The elders told Griaule that Sirius, a star of the constellation Canis Major; the brightest star in the heavens, wasn't just one star, but three different ones. They stated that the visible one (sigi tolo, or Sirius A) was just the largest and the brightest, and that it was orbited by a smaller star, (po tolo, or Sirius B). They said that the smaller star was the heaviest thing in the universe, made of metal, and in a 50-year orbit around Sirius A. The third star in the system (emme ya, or Sirius C) was said to be four times lighter in weight than Sirius B, and that it travels in the same direction around Sirius A, but in a larger orbit.

Alvan Clark, an American astronomer, didn't discover the existence of Sirius B until 1862. It was then determined as a white dwarf, and that the pull of its gravity caused Sirius's wavy movement. White dwarfs are small, dense stars that burn dimly. And while Sirius B is much smaller than planet Earth, a cubic meter of it may weigh as much as 20,000 tons.

Sirius C wasn't even discovered until 1995, when two French researchers, Daniel Benest and J.L. Duvent, authored an article based on observations of motions in the Sirius star system, that stated that certain perturbations which seemed to exist in the Sirius system could be explained by the existence of a third star in the system. Such a third star could be identified as a red dwarf, with about .05 the mass of Sirius B.

Sirius B and C weren't previously discovered because they can't be seen without very advanced technology, such as telescopes, which a dirt-poor tribe in Mali have never had access to. Aside from knowing about the existence of Sirius B and C (and being able to describe exactly what kind of stars they are), they also held other knowledge about astronomy, such as the fact that Saturn has rings, that the moon is dry and barren, that Jupiter has four large moons (a Galilean discovery), as well as how a heliocentric solar system works. There's no way the Dogon could have learned these facts from outside sources due to their seclusion.

The amphibious aliens who allegedly visited this tribe aren't an idea that soley rides with them, either. The Nommo are essentially identical in form to the half-human Fisher King, which supposedly visited ancient Merovingian kings of France; as well as the Sumerian culture-god Oannes, from Greek mythology, a half-human creature seen in olden Babylonia,
who, with similar beings, came out of the sea every day to teach the world's first agriculture, mathematics, law, and astronomy--every evening they would dive back into the water...this is yet congruos with Kappa, from Japanese mythology: mischievous half-turtle, half-human creatures that swam underwater, had webbed feet, and flew around in shell cars, who often came ashore and taught the natives various advanced arts.

More connections: Dogu statues, some dating back 12,000 years, some 4,000, and some earlier, are small figures constantly being dug up in Japan shown wearing goggles, which were unknown at that time. They are so old, that no one really knows what they were supposed to be anymore. And yet, 5,000 miles and 1,000 years apart, certain pairs of these statues present remarkably similar features, such as head ornamenting, reptilian textures on the bodies, and clothing decors. They look pretty much like diving suits, or space suits, or both. Isao Washio, a Japanese expert on Dogu, says:
Quote:
The gloves are fixed to the forearms with a rounded attachment while the eye pieces can be opened or closed. There are levers at their sides while the crown of the figures look like antenna. The 'designs' on the suits aren't ornamental but correspond to devices suitable for regulation of pressure.
which coincides with the Nommo mythology of the Dogon tribe in Mali, who claim these Nommo needed water to survive and had some kind of apparatus to provide them with it, as well as with the Kappa, which need fluid in their skull-bowl to stay alive on land.

Another thing to take note of: Dogu, Dogon. Similar, no? They're not the only linked words. Both Japanese and the Dogon langauge happen to have 12 words that are exactly the same, despite the fact that in Africa, some tribes and regions have no relation to others linguistically because of their isolation.

You can say otherwise, but the facts are there.
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  #32  
Old 07-09-2004, 01:32 PM
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Default Re: WAR SEASON III - Debate Section

About the dogon story:

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First, let's look at what astronomers know about Sirius to see if it is at least theoretically plausible that advanced life might have arisen in its vicinity. Sirius A, the brightest star in the night sky as seen from Earth, has a mass 2.35 times that of the sun. Its white dwarf companion, Sirius B, has a mass of 0.99 suns. Stellar evolutionary theory tells us that the most massive stars burn out the quickest, so that originally Sirius B must have been the more massive of the two, before burning out to become a white dwarf. Probably Sirius B spilled over some of its gas onto Sirius A during its aging process, so that the original masses of the two stars were approximately the reverse of what we see today.

A star with twice the sun's mass, as Sirius B probably had, can live for no more than about 1,000 million years before swelling up into a red giant; this does not seem long enough for advanced life to develop. But had life evolved, it would have disappeared during the red giant stage of Sirius B, when any nearby planet would have been roasted by the star's increased energy output, followed by a stellar gale for at least 100,000 years as hot gas streamed from Sirius B to Sirius A. During this mass transfer the two stars would have moved apart, thereby destabilizing the orbits of any planets in the system. According to observations of Sirius B as analyzed by H. L. Shipman of the University of Delaware, Sirius B has been a cooling-down white dwarf for at least 30 million years. Sirius B is now emitting soft x-rays, so that life in the region of Sirius would not be very pleasant today. But in any case, Robert S. Harrington of the U.S. Naval Observatory has recently shown that planetary orbits in the "habitable" zone around Sirius, defined as the region in which water would be liquid, are unstable. So there are unlikely to be any amphibious beings living on planets in the Sirius system today, if indeed any such beings ever lived there.

(......)

The Dogon are also supposed to know that Sirius B orbits every 50 years. But what do they actually say? Griaule and Dieterlen put it as follows: "The period of the orbit is counted double, that is, one hundred years, because the Siguis are convened in pairs of 'twins,' so as to insist on the basic principle of twinness." The Sigui ceremony referred to is a ceremony of the renovation of the world that is celebrated every 60 years (not 50). And the "twinness" referred to here is an important Dogon concept which explains why they believe Sirius must have two companions.

Is there any astronomical evidence that Sirius has more than one companion star? Some astronomers in the 1920s and 1930s thought they had glimpsed a third member of the Sirius system, but new and more accurate observations reported in 1973 by Irving W. Lindenblad of the U.S. Naval Observatory, Washington, D.C., showed no evidence of a close companion to either Sirius A or Sirius B.
Read the whole thing here > http://www.csicop.org/si/7809/sirius.html

My views on the subject >>

Do they exist? Real or fake?

To be honest, the word 'aliens' makes me think of little green creatures, with big black eyes and superior technology to ours. If that is the type of alien we're referring to, well, then I say, no, not in the Milky Way anyway, or at least not at this time.
Don't get me wrong, I believe in alien life, aka bacterial life, or even mammal-like life and plants on other planets and moons.

Why do I believe that visiting green little men don't exist? Well. let's take a look at ourselves first. The human race has been searching for other life for centuries now, to no avail. It's safe to say that any other race on another planet would search for life, just like we do. Well, if the other race would be more advanced than we are, they would've found us by now.

Even if these aliens existed, they probably wouldn't today. Look at our history. Only the last 100 years it's even possible to think of space flight, and we're actually capable of space flight for 50 years now. Compared to the age of the universe, that number is completely to be ignored. Wouldn't it be an extreme coincedence if aliens capable of interstellar space flight would exist and visit, just 'round the time when we're starting to develop space flight?

Even if this region of space where we live is filled with life...you could ask yourself: "where is everybody?". Not a single sign of life has ever been detected outside of earth. Wouldn't aliens try to colonise other planets, like we want to do to the moon, and maybe mars?
If we, humans, would want to colonise the entire Milky Way, with our current technology (rockets), that'd take 300 million years. 300 million years is nothing compared to the age of the universe.
Therefore, I think it's safe to say that no other alien civilisations older, more intelligent, or whatever then us exists (in the Milky Way).

Intelligent life could have existed in the Milky Way, but it certainly doesn't at this time in space.

Life itself on the other hand is quite common. Bacterias have been known to live 7 meter under ground, or in Antarctica, encased in ice. Life can survive under extreme conditions, it's be foolish to think that the earth is the only place with life on it. In fact, I almost consider it a fact that bacteria exist(ed) on Mars, and I'm just waiting for those bacterias to be discovered.
The basic ingredients for life are very common. Just alone in our solar system they are found on Earth, Mars, Europe(moon) and Titan(moon).

In 2025 a telescope is planned to be launched, capable of seeing planets as big as Earth (yes, seeing, not detecting). I wouldn't be suprised if planets full of life would exist, with plants, "mammals", or other slightly intelligent species.

If they do, are they peace-makers or invaders?

If (more) intelligent exist, and they'd be visiting earth, the're definately not invaders. I mean, we would've noticed about now, wouldn't we? With their superior technology, they could invade us anyday. Wich they don't.
I don't think they'de be peace-makers either. Why would they want "peace" with a race from wich they have nothing to fear? It wouldn't make sense to do so.

If not, why have so many people claimed sightings?

Mass hysteria? Unknown atmospheric phenomone? To be able to fully asnwer this question, we need to kow everything - and I mean everything - about the Earth, wich we don't.


I'm on Nox btw ^^;

Last edited by Seven; 07-09-2004 at 01:53 PM.
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  #33  
Old 07-09-2004, 07:02 PM
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Default Re: WAR SEASON III - Debate Section

elimN8- You seriously want us to believe a story told for generation to a fifth world colony has evidence of space travelers? There are mistakes in what you told. First: You said only a few number of Dogon members knew the tale. You'd think something that important would be told to ALL of them. Second: They told it through verbal expression. Ever play Telephone? Eventually, the message is misspoken and the original story is lost. Third: If every person made a separate prediction about space, at least one of them would be right. Does that mean anything? No, just a coincidence. Do we know everything that happened to every person back then like we do now? No, so maybe Sirius was discovered early by an unknown person.
Basically, using the Dogon tribe to prove the existance of Aliens is quite bogus. We're supposed to believe the aliens came to our planet just to tell us that Sirius has three stars?? Oh, the statues, they look so similar. So what! There are a lot of artworks that depict similarities from half way across the world. If you switched those statues, I bet the Dogon tribe wouldn't know who the Japan statue is supposed to be.
Aliens haven't visited this planet, it is not possible and quite a waste of time to visit and not do anything here then just leave.

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  #34  
Old 07-10-2004, 07:19 PM
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Default Re: WAR SEASON III - Debate Section

You've yet to provide one fact in that entire "argument". All you've done is throw suggestions around and use ridicule in an attempt to cast incredulity on the truth.

In response to my so-called "mistakes:
Quote:
First: You said only a few number of Dogon members knew the tale. You'd think something that important would be told to ALL of them.
Of course you would think that, but are you a member of the Dogon tribe? Didn't think so. Different location; different culture; different people. You can't assume that everyone's going to open up the same way about every situation. Additionally, what do you think the words candid mythology imply? I'll tell you: it implies that these beliefs are something they don't usually tell people.
Quote:
Second: They told it through verbal expression. Ever play Telephone? Eventually, the message is misspoken and the original story is lost.
If the original story was lost, how did they know the exact location and nature of a system of stars lightyears away from them?
Quote:
Do we know everything that happened to every person back then like we do now? No, so maybe Sirius was discovered early by an unknown person.
Which, as I've stated, is impossible, since the aspects of the Sirius system that the Dogon described can't even be seen without highly-advanced telescopes.
Quote:
Basically, using the Dogon tribe to prove the existance of Aliens is quite bogus. We're supposed to believe the aliens came to our planet just to tell us that Sirius has three stars??
This is what I'm talking about. You're trying to make the notion sound absurb via rhetorical quiestions, and reducing (in this case) the tribe's acquired information to a single factor--you should know that they were taught more than just the number of stars Sirius has, if you even read the passage. And, even when you put it like that, who's to say what the exact intent of the visitors was? Sure, it may seem miniskewl and pointless to you, but it must not have been to them.

Still, I ask you, why is such a thing so hard to believe? Perhaps it's because that's how all skeptics think: since the existence of "aliens" goes against realism, and what you've been taught is orthodox, you simply refuse to accept the idea, which is extremely ignorant and quite dismissive.

Quote:
Oh, the statues, they look so similar. So what! There are a lot of artworks that depict similarities from half way across the world.
Similar, but exactly the same, and forged without either of the creators ever having come into contact with each other at all? That just doesn't happen coincidentally.
Quote:
Aliens haven't visited this planet, it is not possible
Prove that they haven't. Moreover, prove that it's "not possible", i.e. how it can not happen ever under any provided circumstances.
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and quite a waste of time to visit and not do anything here then just leave.
The visit I described was anything but a waste of time, but I'm not really even going to acknowledge that statement beyond what I've already said.
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  #35  
Old 07-10-2004, 10:29 PM
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Default Re: WAR SEASON III - Debate Section

Alright, I think you failed to argue against my "guesswork" plot.
Quote:
Third: If every person made a separate prediction about space, at least one of them would be right.
I'll spin it another way.

Do you know how many tribes there are/were? Probably billions over the time span of human life. Let's take Tribe A. They have a story about a certain Planet X in a certain spot with blah blah blah. 100-1000 years later, our civilization hears about this story and we investigate with our technology and find out there is no Planet X where they said it was.

My point is, all tribes have stories passed down through generation (and can be lost). There has to be at least 1 space story for each tribe somewhere that explains the stars or something mystical. It just so happens that the Dogon tribe hits their mark right on the dot because of some visitors from space. So what about the other tribes that got their space stories all wrong? It's a matter of guesswork, that's all. If anyone guesses long enough, eventually you will get at least 1 correct.

Everything from the past that is not a written record is questionable until it can be proven by solid facts. Word of mouth isn't even that helpful in a court case, even if you absolutely know they are guilty.
The only solid proof there is for the Dogon's is the statue similarities, and even that is questionable, as I already stated.

~Jack~
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  #36  
Old 07-11-2004, 03:49 AM
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Default Re: WAR SEASON III - Debate Section

okay, i didnt really want to get into this but here we go. E8 in your story the aliens obviously had to travel a great distance to reach earth. Does the story explain how they got here? Did they use wormholes, spacheships..what? as wormholes are still unproven theoretical science for now i will assume they got here via spacecraft.

Now there are several things amiss with long distance space travel, perhaps the aliens have solved these problems, but i want to address them anyhow. Any realistic space flight would require going speeds at or at a great fraction of the speed of light. Without such speeds it would be impossible to travel even to a near star. These speeds would expose any spacecrafts to a great deal of hazards. One major hazard would be space debris, according to frank Drake (chairman of the Board of Trustees of the SETI Institute) "At relativistic speeds, even a collision with a particle of a few grams results in something close in energy to a nuclear bomb blast".
Not only that, the energy required to get to one tenth the speed of light would require as much energy as the united states produces in one hundred years.(drake)

So, I ask you, if space travel is that dangerous and costly why would an intelligent race want to travel great distances? what possible motivation could an alien race have for expending so much time and energy?
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  #37  
Old 07-11-2004, 06:44 AM
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Default Re: WAR SEASON III - Debate Section

Quote:
Originally Posted by lil_leprachaun33
Alright, I think you failed to argue against my "guesswork" plot.

I'll spin it another way.

Do you know how many tribes there are/were? Probably billions over the time span of human life. Let's take Tribe A. They have a story about a certain Planet X in a certain spot with blah blah blah. 100-1000 years later, our civilization hears about this story and we investigate with our technology and find out there is no Planet X where they said it was.

My point is, all tribes have stories passed down through generation (and can be lost). There has to be at least 1 space story for each tribe somewhere that explains the stars or something mystical. It just so happens that the Dogon tribe hits their mark right on the dot because of some visitors from space. So what about the other tribes that got their space stories all wrong? It's a matter of guesswork, that's all. If anyone guesses long enough, eventually you will get at least 1 correct.

Everything from the past that is not a written record is questionable until it can be proven by solid facts. Word of mouth isn't even that helpful in a court case, even if you absolutely know they are guilty.
The only solid proof there is for the Dogon's is the statue similarities, and even that is questionable, as I already stated.

~Jack~
Yeah Lep, I'm sure that they just guessed exact cosmological facts about planets in the solar system that they knew nothing about, and approximated the annual rotation of an invisible star.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finglonger
okay, i didnt really want to get into this but here we go. E8 in your story the aliens obviously had to travel a great distance to reach earth. Does the story explain how they got here? Did they use wormholes, spacheships..what? as wormholes are still unproven theoretical science for now i will assume they got here via spacecraft.

Now there are several things amiss with long distance space travel, perhaps the aliens have solved these problems, but i want to address them anyhow. Any realistic space flight would require going speeds at or at a great fraction of the speed of light. Without such speeds it would be impossible to travel even to a near star. These speeds would expose any spacecrafts to a great deal of hazards. One major hazard would be space debris, according to frank Drake (chairman of the Board of Trustees of the SETI Institute) "At relativistic speeds, even a collision with a particle of a few grams results in something close in energy to a nuclear bomb blast".
Not only that, the energy required to get to one tenth the speed of light would require as much energy as the united states produces in one hundred years.(drake)
You're taking too many things for granted. For starters, you're measuring things in relationship to our current perception of theoretical space travel, which shouldn't even apply as this is an entirely different race from an entirely different part of the universe with entirely different technological acheivements. There's no way I could possibly tell you the precise method they used to get here, other than that it was supposedly some sort of spacecraft.

However, there is no given "realistic" space flight like the kind you described in this case, because the hazards you presented are only potential threats given that the spacecraft is in fact, going speeds at or at a great fraction of the speed of light, and that this is a type of craft that would need to do so.

Hell, we don't even know their average lifetime expectancy; how do we know that they'll expire on the expedition, presuming that perhaps they don't have enhanced enough technology, and that it took virtually forever to get here? Even if we had a rough idea, who's to say that they haven't mastered perpetual or extended life-support? For that matter, who knows if they even die naturally at all? I certainly don't have that information, but that shouldn't override the fact that, however the feat was accomplished, one way or another, they arrived.
Quote:
So, I ask you, if space travel is that dangerous and costly why would an intelligent race want to travel great distances? what possible motivation could an alien race have for expending so much time and energy?
As I just stated, we don't even know how dangerous or costly it was for them, but as far as motivation goes, you need to consider the one key phrase in your question: intelligent. They were intelligent; they wanted to share their intelligence; they taught us. Why exactly they wanted to do so is really anyone's guess. Perhaps finding us wasn't intentional, but it very well could have been. Cutting theories short: nobody knows, so don't blame me when I say that I honestly don't see your argument.
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  #38  
Old 07-11-2004, 07:12 AM
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Default Re: WAR SEASON III - Debate Section

well nate, I have presented real science (limited as is our perception of space) but real science nontheless. You on the other hand have given us a story that might as well have been made up, because it provides no concrete evidence. I deal in real science and conventional space travel is not possible in the way we perceive it. My argument is simple and since you didnt catch it.... here it is in simple terms. Long distance space travel is an impossibility.(got it now??) As of yet, our science(which is the only thing we can go off of) has proven that it is too hazardous to travel long distances in space. Unfortunately, these so called "aliens" havent provided us with any of their advanced science so we have to deal with the facts at hand. Sorry, but I tend to prefer real science over science fiction.
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Old 07-11-2004, 09:00 PM
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Default Re: WAR SEASON III - Debate Section

Okay very interesting and different arguments that I had expected. First off guys we were talking about the ‘little green men type’ and not other things that some of you were talking about. After looking though all of them a few people stood out and I found it very hard finding the two winners but nether the less I award first place to Jack of Team Elite for his argument, even though I didn’t agree with much he said.

Second place was a lot harder to choose, it was between Mana, Finglonger, Nate and Seven, I then narrowed it down to Nate and Seven. Looking at Nate’s argument, I really was not sure about the debating style while Seven’s, even though he only did one argument, it was a good clear one and he argued well, so second place goes to Seven of Team Nox.

Even though hearing these debates, I stand by my guns that aliens exist lol.

The next debate topic will be given tomorrow.

BTW I have updated the rules, read them please.
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  #40  
Old 07-12-2004, 02:55 PM
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Default Week 2- Does God Exist?

WEEK 2

The topic for this week is a religious one. Yes I know a lot of you saw this coming sooner or later and its sooner dam it!

So the topic is: Does God exist?

-If He does, which religion is the right religion?
-If He doesn’t then how can all the ‘religious events’ be explained eg- miracles and eyewitnesses.

Discuss away.
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  #41  
Old 07-12-2004, 03:00 PM
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Default Re: WAR SEASON III - Debate Section

I'm a Christian and I really think god does exist. I have seen many miracles in my lifetime. My grandfather living after I pray. You could say it's just a coincidence but I don't believe you. 've seen clouds and smoke form into things that I've been thinking about. I figured I'd just get this started so it's not a long post.
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  #42  
Old 07-12-2004, 03:13 PM
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Default Re: WAR SEASON III - Debate Section

Well, to be quite honest, I'm not completely Atheist, but I'm not a bliever of God either. I prefer to see everything proven, mostly via my own senses, which is why, since I've never seen God in my life so far, I cannot bring myself to believe in him/her/it.

Obviously, it's arguable that our senses are never the most reliable of messengers, but since the senses are what I know I have, I rely on them heavily.
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  #43  
Old 07-12-2004, 03:27 PM
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Default Re: WAR SEASON III - Debate Section

Yes, but maybe you have seen signs of god,heard, signs of god with your own senses and just don't know or just refuse to believe. It's small simple things that could show go is there. Not big miracles. You just need to pay close attention to everything.
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Old 07-12-2004, 03:30 PM
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Default Re: WAR SEASON III - Debate Section

Perhaps you might want to elaborate on the little miracles of God that should lead me to believe.
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Old 07-12-2004, 03:35 PM
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Default Re: WAR SEASON III - Debate Section

I don't know what you've seen I'm just saying that it's possible that you've seen it and just don't want to believe because you haven't really seen god. The way you say it you've never seen god so you don't believe the he's there. Ok I've never seen Englad but does that mean that it's not there? no.
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