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Fourth Generation Discuss the fourth generation Pokemon games: Diamond, Pearl, Platinum, HeartGold and SoulSilver.

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Old 02-01-2008, 12:14 AM
shedinjask's Avatar
shedinjask Offline
Elite Trainer (Level 1)
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,042
Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

The difference between you using theorymon and me using theorymon is you are saying 'look at these great counters' and I'm saying 'no they're not counters', and proving why, and that by itself is just theorymoning but that seems to be all you go on where you have no tests for your side and DT has been tested and retested and tourneyed and decided broken over and over again.

If Blissey is hit once, she will simply heal. If you manage to hit her again then you are lucky, but you can't count on it which ruins the idea of a definitive counter.

My point about chess and Pokemon is that both are metagames, you can't just make a thread like this and hypothesize everything and expect people to take you seriously about it. This is true for both games. If the rules of chess were to be changed, they would need extensive testing. The difference between this is that smart people made chess and so nothing really needs to be changed, where GameFreak made Pokemon with no concept of a metagame in mind so we need to set rules and they change the game every gen so we need to set more rules. Fire Away's analogy, since you seem to have missed it, is that you can't just try to tell players of a game you've never played seriously to change their rules. A pawn moving three spaces in the first turn instead of two could have drastically gamebreaking effects or it could not matter at all, but unless you play the game (which you don't) you have no way of knowing it and therefore no way of arguing it.

When I called you a newbie I simply meant you were new. Didn't mean to be insulting.

The Cressy vs Garchomp was just an example of what would go on. Everyone would be trying to set up Double Team since it's one of the best if not the best strategies and matches would lead to stallwars.

The reason I ignored Miracle Eye and its clones and Psych Up is that (read this carefully) Pokemon that learn one of them are either terrible Pokemon (Linoone), are already pressed for moveslots (Blissey) or have better things to do (Bronzong). If Bronzong has better things to do besides Psych Up, and Psych Up is an otherwise bad move on it, and Bronzong can't afford to lose a moveslot, then allowing Double Team makes Bronzong worse. Now, replace 'Bronzong' with any of the learners of Psych Up/Miracle Eye/Odor Sleuth/Foresight. You could say 'Bronzong doesn't have to run it something else can.' but the fact still remains that I am forced to use an otherwise useless move to counter an otherwise dominating strategy, which is overcentralization. It decreases diversity, which is bad.

Please point out to me the counters to DT I failed to adress in the long seventh point. No-miss moves, Miracle Eye clones, Hazing, statting up and hoping for a hit. I think I covered them all except Psych Up, and like I said that leads to boring stall wars.

Bottom line: Double Team forces me to either use it or use a specialized, specific, outclassed counter to it. It also takes the idea of a perfect counter or even a shaky counter away. Cresselia is now no longer a Garchomp counter, because there's no guarentee she's going to beat it.

Your argument about 'luck vs skill is lol' is also really bad. I've been wondering about the philosophy of nothing being random (the way a light wave reflects happens for a specific reason, nothing is due to luck), but even if nothing is luck we are basically losing control of the game. Skilled players would lose to something they had no control over. Now, something like a crit would fall under that. If we unban DT, then we barely have any more control over Pokemon than we do 'guess the number and win!'.

When I say I'm going back to Smogon I really try to avoid this place but I can never resist a debate.
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