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  #1  
Old 08-06-2008, 02:36 AM
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Default Stem Cell Reasearch

So we've all (most) have heard about it on the news. What are your views on it? Are you for it or agaisnt it?

I myself am for it. If I were in a wheelchair for most of my life and someone offered it to me, I'd take it =).
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Old 08-06-2008, 02:44 AM
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Default Re: Stem Cell Reasearch

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Originally Posted by Skullz View Post
So we've all (most) have heard about it on the news. What are your views on it? Are you for it or agaisnt it?

I myself am for it. If I were in a wheelchair for most of my life and someone offered it to me, I'd take it =).
Ah, scientists... The haxors of the human body. Personally, I think the fact that people have figured out how to regenerate humans beyond natural capability is great, but I can't help but wonder if they could get the stem cells from aborted babies...
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Old 08-06-2008, 02:45 AM
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Default Re: Stem Cell Reasearch

Not using stem cells doesn't make a fetus any less aborted.

That's all I really have to say on this.
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Old 08-06-2008, 02:51 AM
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Default Re: Stem Cell Reasearch

I'm against it because it is inefficient. One of the major stem cell breakthroughs was proved to be a lie, the scientist confessed... Whereas taking cells from a person and then using those on them, or using cord blood, actually works, and avoids the controversial issue anyway.

Why go with the method that doesn't work as well or as often, has more side effects, and uses dead folks? It just seems pointless. If there was no reasonable alternative I'd reconsider, but since there are two better alternatives, why bother with stem cells from fetuses? It just seems rather foolish. Notice the medical investors are not investing in stem cells... Generally a bad sign. If there was money/efficiency in it, they'd be there in a heartbeat, but only a few companies are, not most of them.
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Old 08-06-2008, 02:52 AM
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Default Re: Stem Cell Reasearch

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Originally Posted by Fire Away View Post
Not using stem cells doesn't make a fetus any less aborted.

That's all I really have to say on this.
What I meant was, if they're going to be aborting fetuses they might as well get something useful out of them before they toss them. Wouldn't you want to have an aborted baby let an old man walk again then be thrown away then it just being thrown away? Because if you wouldn't you have something against old people
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireflyK View Post
I'm against it because it is inefficient. One of the major stem cell breakthroughs was proved to be a lie, the scientist confessed... Whereas taking cells from a person and then using those on them, or using cord blood, actually works, and avoids the controversial issue anyway.

Why go with the method that doesn't work as well or as often, has more side effects, and uses dead folks? It just seems pointless. If there was no reasonable alternative I'd reconsider, but since there are two better alternatives, why bother with stem cells from fetuses? It just seems rather foolish. Notice the medical investors are not investing in stem cells... Generally a bad sign. If there was money/efficiency in it, they'd be there in a heartbeat, but only a few companies are, not most of them.
1)Eventually, they actually will get a breakthrough if they keep working on it. In my opinion, new methods and tried-and-true methods should be upgraded equally.
2)Dead people don't want to be paid for having their stem cells taken.
3)If we give up on stem cells, we admit George W. Bush wasted trillions of government dollars... oh, wait.
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Old 08-06-2008, 03:11 AM
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Default Re: Stem Cell Reasearch

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Originally Posted by Pokol DaErran View Post
1)Eventually, they actually will get a breakthrough if they keep working on it. In my opinion, new methods and tried-and-true methods should be upgraded equally.
This is a waste of money and time and effort. When we discovered the X-ray, did we go looking for something else to do the exact same thing? No. It'd be silly. Other machines like the MRI exist, but that's for a different purpose, not the exact same purpose as X-ray. It looks at a different thing. This is the same thing. We want to focus on the most efficient and health-wise-beneficial option, and improve it as much as we can to make it good for people and affordable.

If the 'alternative' options were all non-controversial, people would just pick the best and focus on it. The only reason people like stem cell research from fetuses is so they can show how open to new things and 'tolerant' they are. Just like ethanol- politically correct to support it, but it's wasteful and stupid.


Quote:
2)Dead people don't want to be paid for having their stem cells taken.
People's OWN cells can be used to help them. You're not going to say "Hey self, PAY ME or I won't save you!". That, or your family's, and again, no need to demand pay for that.

Also, note that it takes money to get stem cells from fetuses too, teh difference is the government pays for it... So they overpay, are inefficient in processes, and the cost comes out of EVERYone's taxes.

Quote:
3)If we give up on stem cells, we admit George W. Bush wasted trillions of government dollars... oh, wait.
Bush is a republican, and opposed tihs. However, the president's not 100% in charge of what happens, and can be overruled by teh senate/house and forced to let money go to things he doesn't approve of. Also, there's no way to know this is a dead end until you try it.

And for your info, he didn't support it. There was a bill to fund it which he swore to Veto. =) Next time, use research, instead of cheap barbed strawman arguments to distract from the facts.
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Old 08-06-2008, 04:10 AM
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Default Re: Stem Cell Reasearch

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Originally Posted by FireflyK View Post
People's OWN cells can be used to help them. You're not going to say "Hey self, PAY ME or I won't save you!". That, or your family's, and again, no need to demand pay for that.
Bush is a republican, and opposed tihs. However, the president's not 100% in charge of what happens, and can be overruled by teh senate/house and forced to let money go to things he doesn't approve of. Also, there's no way to know this is a dead end until you try it.
Well, once a man who kidnapped himself to get attention cut off his own finger and sent it to his family to show them he meant buisness... But anyways, you have a point. We wouldn't try to invent a portable music player if we already had a MP3 that did the exact same thing, would we?

XD
But hey, the people at Apple can't even make a decent PC, why should they be able to figure out that they didn't need another MP3 when there was already one that worked perfectly well?
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Old 08-06-2008, 04:10 AM
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Default Re: Stem Cell Reasearch

I used to support it... but that was before I knew you could do the exact same thing with less controversy and more efficiency... which was about five seconds ago when I read FFK talking about it.
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Old 08-06-2008, 05:00 AM
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Default Re: Stem Cell Reasearch

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Originally Posted by Eeveeking929 View Post
I used to support it... but that was before I knew you could do the exact same thing with less controversy and more efficiency... which was about five seconds ago when I read FFK talking about it.
FFK makes us all seem like idiots. xP
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Old 08-06-2008, 05:14 AM
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Default Re: Stem Cell Reasearch

Fire Away has already said my words :P The baby is already aborted not much people can do about it :P
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Old 08-06-2008, 05:32 AM
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Default Re: Stem Cell Reasearch

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Originally Posted by lonewolf View Post


FFK makes us all seem like idiots. xP
So true. So true, indeed.

FFK has convinced me. There's nothing more I can say on the topic.
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  #12  
Old 08-07-2008, 03:33 AM
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Default Re: Stem Cell Reasearch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokol DaErran View Post
Well, once a man who kidnapped himself to get attention cut off his own finger and sent it to his family to show them he meant buisness... But anyways, you have a point. We wouldn't try to invent a portable music player if we already had a MP3 that did the exact same thing, would we?

XD
But hey, the people at Apple can't even make a decent PC, why should they be able to figure out that they didn't need another MP3 when there was already one that worked perfectly well?
... This would be backwards inventing. MP3 brands aren't quite the same as medicinal things. It'd be like inventing windows 98, THEN windows 95. Or inventing windows XP, then windows Vista (Oh... wait... That one DID happen! Stupid microsoft.)

Stem cells from another fetus/person can cause lots of side effects, including a hugely increased risk of either A) failure/the operation going wrong in some way, and B) cancer later in life. D= So while I support looking for more than one way to use stem cells/etc to cause problems, fetal stem cells from aborted babies aren't the way to go(Especially since they dont' always keep track of which were aborted for illness/genetic defect reasons and we don't know what effects this could have on donation-recievers down the line). Especially because some routes of abortion can 'warp' or damage the cells, leading to some issues when they're placed in the new person. :yikes: Cord blood seems to be the least risky and most efficient, though if removing cells from people, growing them, and reinjecting them improves, that's another viable way to fix these issues.


But yeah. ^^: TO all those who didn't know- That's why I hate politicians! Once they take a stand, they don't awnt to be seen as wrong, so they hide information to make people keep supporting them. =( Like ethanol. It seemed brilliant- use corn, a renewable resource, and a form of corn not edible for humans, to create fuel. Thus less pollution/reliance on oil.

Problem was? Ethanol is slightly less efficient than gasoline to use... AND, it takes like 1.7 gallons of gas to make 1 gallon of ethanol. So we lose energy/gas each time we make ethanol.

Yet it's 'green' and politicians supported it, so they continue to pretend that it's a good idea. THey're killing the planet to avoid saying they're wrong. Worse yet, there's evidence that other non-edible plants CAN be used efficiently to save gas, yet no one will look at those 'cause they pushed ethanol so much.

There's one experiment currently going on... While turning this other plant into gas would take about 2 gallons of gas to make 1 gallon of product.. The product would be used in a dual engine for when a car is started, to avoid the extra gas used to start the car / accelerate/ etc. It would make the car about 5x as energy efficient, and be used in tiny quanitites.

So, in that case, it WOULD be worth it... A 'normal' car would get, say, 80 miles per 4 gallons of gas. With this new product, the car would get 80 miles with a gallon of gas and a gallon of Product. The first car's 80 miles cost 4 gallons of gas. The second car's 80 miles cost 3 gallons of gas (1 gallon as 'gas', the other two to produce the gallon of product that is more efficient in this new engine).

Then there's the corrosion- if this product doesn't need as many/frequent oil changes, and corrodes the engine less, then money/stuff is saved there too.


Basically, people often forget to look at the WHOLE picture before opening their mouths... And then lie and hide information. =( Which is sad, because many folks think they're saving the world by using ethanol/stem cells, but they're really making it worse- and it's not their fault, 'cause they have no awy to know.

Now, I have a foot up, 'cause I know some people with connections, and have relatives who are scientists, including a rocket scientist... Thus I get the real deal. But people who don't may be fooled by politicians, or previously reputable papers, like the NY times. (Who are just full of 'controversial' news that oftne isn't true... Like when they ran pictures of innocent palestinians killed by israelies, then innocent israelis killed by politicians... It was the SAME set of bodies but moved to a new place, to support the side they were currently on in the war! Go figure!)

Sorry to ruin the debate. =p Now, if you're looking for one that's still 'up in the air'.... The next cars are likely to either be electric of some sort, or hydrogen-powered, raising the cost, safety, and damage to environment factors quite a bit. The jury's still out on what's best, though my best is on Hydrogen powered.


Or if you're looking for interesting but less controversial science... Early evidence has been enough to get a grant for a large study on food allergy cures. The suspected 'cure'? Camel milk. Unless cow milk, camel milk is composed of different things, and contains enzymes and other things similar enough to humans to somehow trick the human body and seemingly reduce or eliminate food allergies (Though not intolerances). Of all the unusual cures! Of course, if the camel has any allergies, they don't know if the human aquires those... And heating/pasteurizing the milk destroys whatever it is that works... So again, there's the issue of 'What are the risks vs. the gains?"

And finally- genetically modified food. Some people like it, some are scared of it. What people fail to consider, however... Is that like many things, it's good in small amounts, but dangerous in excess.
1. GMO foods are modified with EXISTING genes. Meaning, if a bunch of grapes are resistant to pests, other grapes will be modified to have the same genes as the first set. No one's creating new/mutant genes. They're just copying existing genes over into a different bunch of grapes, so that those, too, will have the resistance. So, the mutation rate, provided it's done properly, should be no higher than that of the first bunch of grapes.
2. If a really good gene is food and bred, one must be aware of the consequences. There's one kind of banana, can't remember the variety off the top of my head but will google if requested, that has VERY little gene differences. Basically, one variety was strong/immune to one disease/needed less nutrients and water, so everyone used samples of it for their crop. However, if a weakness turns up- if that banana is weak to a new disease that arises, for example- then the whole kind could die off. In natural variety, everyone has different genes, and resistances and weaknesses to different diseases. So, if a disease wipes out banana's with gene A, there's still bananas of the same variety/type with genes B, C, D, and E. And also, some plants, depending on if they're dominant/recessive or whether the genes merge (Like how some flowers, if they are bred from a red parent and a white parent, will be Pink, instead of one of the colors the parents are).... May survive with, say, AB, AC, AD, or so on and so forth. In a single-gene pool, they're all weak to the same stuff.

Relating to the 'too small gene pool'... This is common in purebred dogs and all sorts of other things with small gene pools. Hybridization- or breeding different genotypes- leads to 'hybrid vigor', or healthier plants/animals.

One example is fish. Many areas have ponds of one species of fish. These fish can mate with anothe fish to have egs, OR produce them asexually (clones with the exact same DNA). During times of plenty and health, the asexual/cloned fish do best. This is becaus they don't need to find and keep a mate, they all have the genes of a parent who is successful in the current environment, and they reproduce faster than sexual fish.

However, if a disease comes up, then due to less variety in the gene pool, the clone fish will mostly die off and become the minority, while more of the sexual fish will survive to reproduce, since they have varied gene combinations instead of identical genes. (Note that if the gene pool is tiny the sexual fish will be just as bad off as the clone fish. There's a reason why inbreeding, even in monarch families like in medieval england and such, caused issues and was avoided!).
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Last edited by FireflyK; 08-07-2008 at 03:45 AM.
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  #13  
Old 08-07-2008, 04:49 PM
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Default Re: Stem Cell Reasearch

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Originally Posted by FireflyK View Post
I'm against it because it is inefficient. One of the major stem cell breakthroughs was proved to be a lie, the scientist confessed... Whereas taking cells from a person and then using those on them, or using cord blood, actually works, and avoids the controversial issue anyway.

Why go with the method that doesn't work as well or as often, has more side effects, and uses dead folks? It just seems pointless. If there was no reasonable alternative I'd reconsider, but since there are two better alternatives, why bother with stem cells from fetuses? It just seems rather foolish. Notice the medical investors are not investing in stem cells... Generally a bad sign. If there was money/efficiency in it, they'd be there in a heartbeat, but only a few companies are, not most of them.
This lie was then verified to have some shreds of truth from the community as well. That's the most interesting aspect of that incident. The cells taken from umbilical cords are still subject to research in terms of pluripotency as far as I know. And we all know that the rest of the adult "stem cells" are simply progenitor cells, and are not true stem cells (i.e. they are restricted to a number of lineages).

The argument for fetal stem cells is its complete pluripotency (that is, it is totipotent). I do believe that this is both a blessing and a curse, as side effects often do come from this pluripotency problem, but at the same time, it should already be known that all known treatments so far has been highly restricted due to the lack of pluripotency.

I'm pretty sure companies have been flooding Japan with cash. You know, the guys that think they've made pluripotent stem cells with fibroblasts. (citation too lazy to get)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireflyK View Post
This is a waste of money and time and effort. When we discovered the X-ray, did we go looking for something else to do the exact same thing? No. It'd be silly. Other machines like the MRI exist, but that's for a different purpose, not the exact same purpose as X-ray. It looks at a different thing. This is the same thing. We want to focus on the most efficient and health-wise-beneficial option, and improve it as much as we can to make it good for people and affordable.

If the 'alternative' options were all non-controversial, people would just pick the best and focus on it. The only reason people like stem cell research from fetuses is so they can show how open to new things and 'tolerant' they are. Just like ethanol- politically correct to support it, but it's wasteful and stupid.

People's OWN cells can be used to help them. You're not going to say "Hey self, PAY ME or I won't save you!". That, or your family's, and again, no need to demand pay for that.

Also, note that it takes money to get stem cells from fetuses too, teh difference is the government pays for it... So they overpay, are inefficient in processes, and the cost comes out of EVERYone's taxes.
It isn't necessarily a waste of money to do so. If we never thought of PCR, our DNA cloning would still be requiring lots of E coli growth. We therefore have spent time and money to do the exact same thing as we did before, but with better efficiency. And your argument there also doesn't work in this context mainly because of the pluripotency issue. The alternatives are useful only up to a certain point, and until the Japanese figures out how they can effectively push the borders to complete pluripotency, there will always be a place for embryonic stem cells to be researched. You'd better hope they figure it out consistently soon, then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireflyK View Post
Stem cells from another fetus/person can cause lots of side effects, including a hugely increased risk of either A) failure/the operation going wrong in some way, and B) cancer later in life. D= So while I support looking for more than one way to use stem cells/etc to cause problems, fetal stem cells from aborted babies aren't the way to go(Especially since they dont' always keep track of which were aborted for illness/genetic defect reasons and we don't know what effects this could have on donation-recievers down the line). Especially because some routes of abortion can 'warp' or damage the cells, leading to some issues when they're placed in the new person. :yikes: Cord blood seems to be the least risky and most efficient, though if removing cells from people, growing them, and reinjecting them improves, that's another viable way to fix these issues.
I'm pretty sure people prefer the artificially inseminated fetuses as sources, but whatever on that. The risk of cancer comes with stem cells as a price tag unless they are progenitor cells, as far as I know. Even if we develop a totipotent cell line from fibroblasts, this issue will still remain. As for genetic defects: it's hard to tell, and sometimes the person himself has defects that needs correction as well. The only thing I can tell you is that you're making this less complicated than it actually is, and that there isn't a true answer to it. It would be preferable when this new technology comes out, but until then we have to make do with what we have.
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:25 AM
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Default Re: Stem Cell Reasearch

OK I'll say a few things on my opinion:
- Researching stem cells will cost some money, but you never know what kind of miraculous advancement it could create, maybe if we take some money out of the war? (Cmon Obama, win it!)
- The main side effects that have been mentioned are operation troubles, which research will certainly help, and cancer, which is mostly benign and able to take out.
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Old 09-07-2008, 04:08 PM
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Question Re: Stem Cell Reasearch

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Originally Posted by FireflyK View Post
Why go with the method that doesn't work as well or as often, has more side effects, and uses dead folks? It just seems pointless.
Are you saying we shouldn't recycle?
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