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Fourth Generation Discuss the fourth generation Pokemon games: Diamond, Pearl, Platinum, HeartGold and SoulSilver.


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  #1  
Old 01-09-2009, 02:52 PM
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Default A Confession Of Faith (Or The Lack Thereof)

I am considering quitting playing Pokemon - permanently. Yes, this is a sad day indeed. My experiences with competitive battling are mostly from the R/S/E age, and my friends have recently gotten into WiFi battling. And thus, I raised a team to do the same.

However, I am starting to believe my morality and 'old ways' are frowned upon by today's generation. Back in the generation of Emerald, when I would play long hours every day, I eventually realized that with Ruby version as well, I could use the PP Max, use the PP Ups, and actually max out the PP of my Pokemon fairly - with my abnormally high level of patience. My friends locally, who saw that as 'unfair' (because I had both access to a second Gameboy Advance and Pokemon Ruby), purchased an Action Replay together and began using it to make 999x PP Max. Rather than be left behind and brutally crushed by my own strategy being cheated against me, I purchased my own Action Replay to speed up the process; something I had never done before; cheated at a video game.

With Diamond and Pearl, and the presence of PokeSav and the average people who consider Rare Candy cheating and "Quick-Hatch" codes valid as I have heard from unnamed sources, I am starting to think that my high morals are not adopted by anyone else in the competitive battling sphere at all.

If all professional athletes have access to steroids, is it the honest, hard-working athlete who refuses to 'cheat' at his or her sport of choice that is at fault if he or she loses a game?

I am sure most will agree with me that the answer to this question is most decidedly no - that steroids are wrong on every possible level.

If all competitive battlers have access to Action Replay, does it make it the fault of the honest, patient, hard-working trainer if he or she loses a battle to someone who uses their Action Replay?

I believe most will say that this is the fault of the player who does not use Action Replay - but I believe the two scenarios are analogous.

I have heard the argument "It's just a game, get over it" over and over again, but ultimately, everything can be seen in the terms of game, even life. There are winners, there are losers - and the people at the top either cheat to get there or work extremely hard. It is simply a matter of the stakes of the game, is it not? Should morality be thrown out the window the lower the stakes get?

Does anyone here agree with me? Or am I wasting my breath in my confession of my lack of faith in the competitive battling sphere?

I must admit, I am guilty of using the PP Maxes, even to this day in my competitive team. If I can find more people who believe the same thing as I do, who believe morality should be present no matter what the stakes are, I'll stop and re-breed my team - if the need to cheat to keep up is not present. If the cheating and lack of morals really is as bad as I have heard from friends, then I believe Pokemon Platinum will be the last Pokemon game I ever purchase, and WiFi will not be the place for me.

I would like only honest, meaningful answers, if anyone has the patience to even read this.

Last edited by Winterbane; 01-09-2009 at 03:06 PM. Reason: Accidental inclusion of "fault" twice in essay-like format
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  #2  
Old 01-09-2009, 03:13 PM
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Default Re: A Confession Of Faith (Or The Lack Thereof)

I see. Pokemon, yes, it's just a game, but as for me, I believe that whatever you do on this game reflects your personality.

I know that cheating can be good or bad, but it is up to the user. Yes, I admit, that I usually cheat on my Gold Version, but ever since that game got ''hang-up'', I stopped it.

Right now I am playing both Emerald and Pearl. I use everything in a natural way. If I ran out of that item, I will ask for a replacement to someone else who has that item.

Since I don't use an Action Replay, I can't comment about it farther from now. But as far as I remember, you can catch shinies, even Arceus, and make your items to the limit.
But honestly, I can't do such thing, it's because of conscience.

Well I understand you, and thank you for your time.

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  #3  
Old 01-09-2009, 04:13 PM
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Default Re: A Confession Of Faith (Or The Lack Thereof)

With Action Replay, you can fundamentally alter the game code to allow things; such as eggs hatching with only one step, 999x of every item, choosing which Pokemon appear in the wild - among others.

I am morally against the 'harsher' use of cheating devices, those steps that make raising a competitive team many times faster than if one were to train legitimately in-game. Although, perhaps my opinions on cheating devices are too harsh...
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Old 01-09-2009, 05:25 PM
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Default Re: A Confession Of Faith (Or The Lack Thereof)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterbane View Post
With Action Replay, you can fundamentally alter the game code to allow things; such as eggs hatching with only one step, 999x of every item, choosing which Pokemon appear in the wild - among others.

I am morally against the 'harsher' use of cheating devices, those steps that make raising a competitive team many times faster than if one were to train legitimately in-game. Although, perhaps my opinions on cheating devices are too harsh...

I think its probably that most "cheaters" dont need to cheat, but they find it convenient. I believe that, with the current OU metagame, people need to find a team that works for them. If you consider what a bore it would be to make a team, and then realize a fatal flaw, then have to make an entirely new one... I mean, I can understand that. Heck, I get my teams from various trades-- I place an order and people deliver. I don't question it, and neither do my morals. I didn't cheat, I don't know for sure if they cheat, so... have I done anything wrong? No.

As a second thought, you are put at a severe disadvantage if you don't cheat.
If its a problem with your morals, just get them from somewhere and don't question it...
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  #5  
Old 01-09-2009, 06:13 PM
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Default Re: A Confession Of Faith (Or The Lack Thereof)

I enjoy raising my team from scratch. I am disheartened though, when I lose to obviously cheated or hacked Pokemon - such as shiny legends with max IVs. With regards to 'harsher' cheating, it's more the one-step egg hatching, guaranteed correct nature + ability - and the "skipping EV training by cheating" that bothers me. Hacked in TMs and HMs? Rare Candy levelling? I may be against it and lose respect for people who are so lazy that they can't level a Pokemon naturally, but it's not as bad as PokeSav or directly altering game code.

It is possible to get 999 Rare Candies in the game (trading, migration, Battle Frontier, etc.), otherwise the code would prevent it. Changing the egg steps of a Pokemon, however, is impossible aside from a simple calculation of Flame Body/Magma Armor applied to the egg steps. 1 Step Egg Hatching is impossible without cheating, as is making Roserade or Meganium appear in the wild to EV on - as well as creating a perfected Pokemon instantly with PokeSav. I think I've figured out my morality crisis.
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Old 01-09-2009, 09:50 PM
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Default Re: A Confession Of Faith (Or The Lack Thereof)

Cheating is cheating regardless of the method nor the reasons behind it. I know that there are plenty of battlers here who use Pokesav and use the excuse they don't want to waste their life breeding and raising. Is this wrong? Yes, I do feel it to be wrong. Regard of their age, they don't know what the meaning of hard work is? How is one suppose to appreciate something if they obtained it with little to no effort?

They could easily go through life thinking it's okay to copy off my friends work because I already know this and that. It's the exact same thing when applied to Pokemon. Using shortcuts to get to your goal faster is just flat out cheating regardless of the reasoning behind it.

It is simply just unfair for those who do things the proper way. Those who cheat are able to constantly update and change their teams according the latest Meta-Game from the battle simulator Shoddy. Even then it's not a true simulator. It doesn't take into consideration the rarity of the Pokemon given out. Thus, making Wi-fi and Shoddy ENTIRELY different.

It's one thing to use Shoddy, but to apply what's used there to Wi-fi isn't the same. Both don't operate under the exact same premise. To use a Pokemon you can make in 3 minutes with PokeSAV compared to a Pokemon that took a week to breed and raise is unfair.

Yet, there really isn't anything one can do about it. All you can really do is try to find ways to shorten your breeding times and hatching. Find better ways to Train and Raise your Pokemon to try and keep up with those who use cheating devices.
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Old 01-09-2009, 10:28 PM
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Default Re: A Confession Of Faith (Or The Lack Thereof)

Hm, glad to see someone of status here agrees with me. I suppose you're right, Teo. Sometimes the frustration does get through to you though - for example, when I was playing Emerald, I had said friends harassing me on a daily basis to 'hurry up' my training so that I could battle against them. At the time, I hadn't known that they were using the AR for more than just PP Maxes, to say the least.

I suppose I can avoid the clans for now, work on getting my ideas planned out, and get the teams made before looking into clanning at all or looking for any battles - its not as though I have friends now pressuring me to hurry up, with university life and all taking an obvious priority.
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Old 01-10-2009, 03:16 AM
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Default Re: A Confession Of Faith (Or The Lack Thereof)

The fact is that hurrying up your training doesn't actually affect the way the battle goes.

If you go breed by hand and EV-train by hand and get every move by hand and max PP by hand and then fight someone who made the same thing as you with action replay, the only thing the action replay is going to affect is what you decide to complain about after the battle.

Unless they are actually doing something that is not possible in any way to get in the game (Pokemon with stats, moves, abilities, or other attributes related to battling that they would not be able to get in game in any way no matter what) they aren't doing anything wrong. That's where your steroids comparison falls short.

Steroids and other enhancers don't just "speed up" something that would happen anyway, they cause people to reach a level of athletic ability that they would not naturally be able to reach at all.

The fact is that competitive Pokemon battling is about one thing. The battling. Everything that happens outside of actual battle is irrelevant. You are expected to have your Pokemon trained and ready when you go to battle, whether you did it "morally" (lol video game morals) or not. You are expected to have IV-bred, to have EV-trained, to have all of your moves on there correctly. If you didn't have time to do it by hand and you insist on doing it that way, then you'd be at a disadvantage no matter who else "cheated" or didn't.

The point is that competitive battling only takes into account what happens during battle, it doesn't care about anything else. Pokesav, action replay, whatever, can and does make Pokemon that perform the same way in battle as regular normal old everyday Pokemon.

The fact is that if you are a good breeder and a relatively efficient EV-trainer, you will be able to update your team constantly. A good tip is to never ever get rid of Pokemon you have already EV-trained and bred well and never to raise them to level 100 so that you can always re-EV them later. If you keep everything (and don't forget to write down all the EVs and whatnot!) then after a few weeks/months battling, you will have a relatively large pool of Pokemon to draw from, and if a new set is made for one of them, you'll have one on you already that you can just re-EV or teach TMs/move tutor to meet the requirement. Another useful tip is to breed EVERY Pokemon you breed with egg moves even if you don't plan on using them on the set, and then to clone it (or have someone else do it if you aren't handy with the GTS) while it still has the moves on. You can get two Pokemon for the price of one this way.

Say you wanted to breed a swords dance Feraligatr to use. Well, breed the totodile to have Dragon Dance and then clone a copy! That way later you'll be able to raise the totodile into both Feraligatrs, a Swords Dance one and a Dragon Dance one. Keeping more than one copy of the same Pokemon can be key if you are trying to keep up in a world where people increasingly can just make whatever they want at any time. Your friends who use action replay may not expect another version of the same Pokemon because they might figure it would take you too long to breed two of them and go through the training again.

Anyways. Long post short:

There are ways to keep up. Trust me. I've done it both the easy way and the hard way, and I remember things that I used to do.

List of vague tips/rememberthis'es:

1. Make sure you have all the Power Items for EV-training. Even if you have to devote a day or a few to the battle tower, these are IMPERATIVE. EV training is hardly even slow once you have them all.

2. Do not fear cloning/cloners. It may be against your ethics, but think of it this way. It's something you already have. You already worked for it.

3. Keeping in mind #2, trade. A lot. If you breed one good-IV baby Pokemon often you can trade its clones for many many many many competitive Pokemon. Sometimes they come fully EV-trained. Even if you don't want to use someone else's Pokemon (some don't) remember that you can use them to breed to pass on their good IVs and to pass on their egg moves/TMs if they are male.

4. From #3: If you're playing through the game with limited TMs, make sure the one-off ones are on a male, breedable Pokemon from a common egg group. This means that you can pass it on. This might get tricky. If you want to really go for it, plan on what you want to breed ahead of time and teach it to a male that has the proper egg moves as well. 2 in 1. Be efficient with all of your resources since they are limited. You can always trade for more TMs, too. So don't panic if you lose one.

5. Use the two-for-one trick I mentioned up above. Have someone clone your baby Pokemon, or do it yourself. That way you can raise more than one moveset/EV of the same Pokemon while only taking the effort to breed it once. Choose natures that work for multiple sets instead of more specialty sets unless you really want to use the more novelty ones.

6. Collect Smeargles. Yeah! If you have good-IV male smeargle you can use their sketch ability to easily pass on almost any egg moves within their egg group. This might be tricky to find and tricky to breed a good one of, but if you breed a truly good smeargle it will save you a lot of effort in the long run.

7. Collect Ditto. Look for a good nature and at least two perfect IVs that correspond well with the natures. Examples are such as:

Bold 31 HP + Defense
Adamant 31 attack + speed
Naive 31 special attack + speed

Stuff like that. Just stats that are beneficial to the nature that the Ditto is. This way you can everstone the ditto to pass on nature and good stats at the same time. A collection of good-IV Ditto is essential to the hand-breeder.

8. Be smart. Just look for ways that can lessen the amount of time that it takes you. There are probably some I didn't mention.
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Old 01-10-2009, 03:42 AM
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Default Re: A Confession Of Faith (Or The Lack Thereof)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teo View Post
Cheating is cheating regardless of the method nor the reasons behind it. I know that there are plenty of battlers here who use Pokesav and use the excuse they don't want to waste their life breeding and raising. Is this wrong? Yes, I do feel it to be wrong. Regard of their age, they don't know what the meaning of hard work is? How is one suppose to appreciate something if they obtained it with little to no effort?

They could easily go through life thinking it's okay to copy off my friends work because I already know this and that. It's the exact same thing when applied to Pokemon. Using shortcuts to get to your goal faster is just flat out cheating regardless of the reasoning behind it.

It is simply just unfair for those who do things the proper way. Those who cheat are able to constantly update and change their teams according the latest Meta-Game from the battle simulator Shoddy. Even then it's not a true simulator. It doesn't take into consideration the rarity of the Pokemon given out. Thus, making Wi-fi and Shoddy ENTIRELY different.

It's one thing to use Shoddy, but to apply what's used there to Wi-fi isn't the same. Both don't operate under the exact same premise. To use a Pokemon you can make in 3 minutes with PokeSAV compared to a Pokemon that took a week to breed and raise is unfair.

Yet, there really isn't anything one can do about it. All you can really do is try to find ways to shorten your breeding times and hatching. Find better ways to Train and Raise your Pokemon to try and keep up with those who use cheating devices.
It is harder to make a good, legit looking poke that you might think.
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Old 01-10-2009, 05:00 AM
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Default Re: A Confession Of Faith (Or The Lack Thereof)

And there is also the fact of legends and one time pokemon. I don't know about you, but don't want to spend hours, days, and even months soft resetting to get a legend with the exact ivs and nature when I can just go to pokesav and make one in five minutes. I mean it's like what tasteless said.

I did also lol at morals in video games. I'm just saying, if morals were in video games, then there wouldn't any Halos, GTAs, Gears of Wars, etc. every made :\
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Old 01-12-2009, 09:06 AM
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Default Re: A Confession Of Faith (Or The Lack Thereof)

omg if t means tht much to u then dont cheat

if not buy n ar and use only minor codes like, max tms thts the only 1 tht i have used lol
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  #12  
Old 01-12-2009, 07:17 PM
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Default Re: A Confession Of Faith (Or The Lack Thereof)

I agree cheating is bad, unless you do things like, PP Max or All TMs or 999 Master Balls.(I am guilty of those)
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  #13  
Old 02-23-2009, 08:44 AM
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Default Re: A Confession Of Faith (Or The Lack Thereof)

You may be happy to know there's someone else who shares your point of view. But trust me, the patient and honest person will usually win in the long run. Just stick at your training and DO NOT even contemplate using an AR. If you need motivation just try to imagine the looks on your cheating friends faces when you beat them in a battle with the scales in their favor.
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Old 02-23-2009, 12:47 PM
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Default Re: A Confession Of Faith (Or The Lack Thereof)

I understand your disappointment about needing to cheat, but in this case I beg to differ. Firstly, competitive battling is more about skill, strategy and the ability to put together a good team, not about hard work and patience. PokeSav actually just speeds up the process of training, and doesn't change anything unless you hack abnormally high stats, which is banned from competitive battling. Also, hacking Rare Candies doesn't matter as level is unimportant in competitive battling, as all matches are Lv100 set.

Also, I don't understand why you need to cheat just because others are doing it. If you EV train and IV breed your Pokemon correctly, they will turn out exactly the same as hacked Pokemon with legit stats. So if you don't want to cheat, then don't, you can keep your morals and still win battles. In my opinion, winning a battle with a team you worked hard on is much more satisfying than winning a battle with a team that you conjured out of thin air.

So, pretty much, in conclusion, it really makes no difference whether you cheat or not, and you are definitely NOT at a disadvantage if you don't cheat. The only thing that decides a competitive battle is skill and strategy.
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Old 02-23-2009, 03:43 PM
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Default Re: A Confession Of Faith (Or The Lack Thereof)

Like Void and Tasteless already explained, that people can make teams in a few minutes does not affect things within a battle.

However, in general terms it does affect those who refuse to cheat.

It affects them by having many more people able to participate in Wi-Fi battles.

Now this is not necessarily good or bad. There can positive and negative things about it, and it might depend on each person.

I could write out all the reasons I can think of, but rather I'll let others post whether they think its good or bad that cheating has made the field of battlers much larger.
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