Battle Clauses Rant

[!CeMAn]

is there anybody else who is opposed 2 online battle clauses?? i understand that freeze clause and sleep clause are designed 2 guard against an entire team becoming incapacitated, but it also sucks the nature right out of pokemon! i put an opponent 2 sleep. they switch out. as long as that sleeping pokemon is stowed away i can't put anything else 2 sleep. yah, i know that's the point but it sucks. it's unnatural. just because a few people used 2 many sleep teams and abused them now everybody gets 2 suffer?

it's not enough that these clauses exist, but have fun locating an opponent who will agree 2 not use them. netbattle isn't an important tournament where rules are necessary- it's a playground. it makes more sense in an environment like that 4 clauses and wussy rules 2 exists. so many netbattlers are way 2 serious about pokemon. what ever happened 2 good old fasioned, straight underground, hardcore link battle style where the aren't any clauses and bans on moves. it's all in good fun anyway.

how can somebody say legitimate moves like double team and OHKO's are banned? just because they don't want the added headache of trying to work around them. "i won't battle any blissey's or snorlax or skarmory or blah blah blah my team can't beat those pokemon so rather than work on my team so it CAN, i'll just cry like a baby and refuse 2 battle." people even refuse 2 battle if you have a certain item attached. "no latias with whatever-it-was berry", or "no calm mind." grow up. yah maybe your team stomped mine but guess what, i couldn't put anything to sleep, i couldn't use my double team, and after about 14 ice beams, nothing else froze. why don't we try it where you DON'T have an advantage and my team is allowed 2 run at it's full purpose? how about no clauses, no bans? "*whine* no you'll hax me!"

what the potatoes is "HAX"?? that's what anybody says when they have bad luck. 'oh you haxed me.' no, actually you're making excuses. don't blame me because my pokemon pimp-slapped yours with a critical hit which is x2 effective. man, people online do a lot of whining...

i realise i must sound like some kind of whiner myself. maybe i don't understand the sacred code of online battling, i don't know. i just get really frustrated. does ANYBODY here agree at all? or am i the only one who thinks clauses, bans and restrictions take away the health of pokemon? once more: i don't use an abusive evasion, sleep team or anything like that, and i don't wish to. that's not why i'm complaining. just for the fact that my lil team can't do everything it could when it's against the ropes.

[mlugia]

Yes and No. Sleep clause and Freeze clause, IMHO, are completely different in nature. Sleep is controllable. You can't say "Oh, oops, I used Crunch and accidentally put your pokemon to sleep", but you can do that with Freezes, because Freeze is a 10% only status. The original Freeze clause, IMHO, was really stupid. "OMG YOU FROZE ME I GUESS YOU CANNOT USE ICE BEAM ANYMORE AGAINST ME OR ELSE YOU MIGHT VIOLATE FREEZE CLAUSE" Sleep, on the other hand, is completely controllable. Can you imagine the metagame if everything because usable? You'd see the Seattle Emerald Battle City competition metagame. 5 ubers and maybe a blissey, give or take a few sleepwhores. Granted, the metagame in my mind is from last november, the last time I used NB, but I believe the logic still is there. It's not a matter of "OMG EVERYONE SUFFERS IF I CANT PUT 2 POKEMON TO BED", but that everyone will use it. It's like a tide. There'd be a surge of sleep whoring, then everyone picks up a speedsub or an insomniac, and then the metagame shrinks right back, and it starts again. Sure, that's more normal, but what would sleep whoring do other than extend the life of a boring metagame?

Given these facts, and the fact that people have been weary of sleepwhoring since RBY, it's easy to see why people wouldn't play without sleep clause. Someone out there will, but the other 9 people won't. Tough luck, really. You can't force someone to believe what you believe, everyone has their own ideologies...

Good underground link battling slowly disappeared as people realized the game gets boring if all we use are 10 pokemon and 1 status effect. I mean, there's gotta be over 200 final form pokemon out there, but only 10 can be used because of stats. Yes, we all love... Exeggutor, but considering it's easily knocked out by Rayquaza and friends, who really want to use it anymore? If you're battling for fun, win or lose shouldn't matter anyways, so if you have to submit to someone else's clause, so be it. If you're playing to win, then you've already violated your own claims of letting people do what they want, right? =/

Move Bans are semi-Valid. Double team, not so much. OHKOs, on the other hand, has a very valid argument behind them. RBY, they weren't much of a threat, if you're faster, they autofail. That made it balanced. GSC onwards, if your level isn't under your opponent, you would DEFINATELY have a chance of OHKOing the opponent. Now online, you can't train, so you don't have a level thing going. IRL, it takes a lot of work to train 6 LV100s, while online, it takes a few clicks, and viola! It seems stupid that a well versed strategic team is torn apart by the 30% chance occurring quite a few times in one battle, especially if the 30% wasn't well earned to begin with... Sure, one can argue against it, but that's the basic theory (Though IMHO with FRLG, you've got good OHKO counters like subbing... Just my take.)
- Quick note: See: GSC Fishtauros.

Pokemon ban: Uber ban is legal and logical. Period. Legend ban, skarm ban, etc... questionable.

Hax: I believe haxing is the act of unnaturally good luck taking away your opponent's chance of winning, especially if that chance was pretty high to begin with. Eg: 5 FPs in a row results in Blissey getting owned by Special attacks? Doesn't happen much, but it turns the tide quickly. See: Chris vs Michael, Emerald Battle City tourney finals. Getting many CHs in a row could get ppl to cry hax, but IMHO, 1 CH in a crucial spot is nothing to cry home about, since it's just 1CH that could have happened anywhere.

Bottom line, there MUST be some restrictions put on the game, as with all games out there anyways. Magic has banned cards from the Unhinged sets, YGO has banned and restricted cards, etc. We all know hindsight is 20/20, and pokemon is no exception. We make better judgments on what to ban AFTER the game comes out, and by that time it is too late to take out Deoxys...

[!CeMAn]

i'm don't disagree with you.

how can somebody be afraid of a lil jynx PWNing an entire team? 'sleepwhore' :tongue: ! it's not like lovely kiss is 100% accurate, and besides they'll wake up eventually. maybe what i want is a little trust that i wouldn't be whoring it up. that's all.

hey i'm all 4 00ber ban. years ago before online battling even existed i would refuse 2 battle my friends unless no mewtwos were allowed. now i find out everybody else feels that way. fresh and fine with me. i feel 00bers are meant 2 be 1 of a kind; a reward 4 completing the various games and to be used only in the various games, not 4 battles with human opponents.

my bottom line is:
if i got raped by a team full of sleep whores, OHKO's and various "dirty" moves or 00bers, i wouldn't be nearly as upset as if my opponent, honest and true, was better than me. what's the big deal if you lose a battle because your opponent is a... i'm hesitant 2 say it: cheater. so what? that's why i feel rules and restrictions are better suited in a serious battle, tournament or title defense.

[mlugia]

Well, 75% chance is still pretty high, and the chance of pulling a 7 turn sleep is still there. If both parties agree on the whole "go all out" type battle, then it's fine. However, most people don't like building their team around being a faster sleep team or an anti-sleep team, since that's... only 2 kinds of teams. Slow teams are completely wiped out, pretty much, unless you luck out and Jumpluff's powder misses a few times in a row till you knock it out, but then out comes Jynx and you got screwed again =/

It's not so much that ppl who don't play sleep clause are cheaters, but rather that most people feel that sleep clause is essential to maintain balance in the game. (And that balance isn't that well maintaned anyways :p)

[!CeMAn]

isn't it 85% :silenced: ?

anyways, if there were no more clauses and sleep teams were straight, you think everybody would make one, and the metagame would ballon up, then shrink back, etc. well if everybody wants 2 make such dirty teams, perhaps there's a problem with the kinds of people battling there. anybody who would WANT 2, is nothing but a heel, iMO

the point is: i feel having only ONE poke asleep isn't balance. not with 5 other healthy ones. what about being poisoned? i think having an entire team poisoned is scarier than having all of them asleep.

you know, i'm sure there could be other things we can do. 4 example: have different sleep clauses. 6 healthy pokes = no more than 4 alseep, 5 = 3, 4 = 2, 3 = 1. or, if it gets violated, simply disqualify the sleep user and you win. i even think at LEAST 2 asleep is worlds better than just one. you could set up some wild stuff while still giving your opponent a fighting chance.

i get your point and it makes perfect sense. in fact, that is why i figured these clauses existed in the first place. however, it seems like a quick fix that takes away from the health of pokemon. what happens if people get fed up with thunder wave?? just like poison and paralyse or other status-inflict teams are perfectly acceptable, we need 2 establish better rules 2 make sleep teams just as acceptable.

[mlugia]

Well, the original sleep clause came with pokemon Stadium 1, and at the time, it restricted sleep to 1 pokemon only. While the idea carried over, the ratio did not. In link battles, you're allowed 6 pokemon, not 3, so putting 1 of 6 to sleep is not the same as 1 of 3. Some have tried arguing that we should expand it to 2 of the 6, but people generally disagreed.

The thing about sleep, above all other status (minus freeze), is that it incapacitates you. Period. Poison drains 12.5% a turn, Getting hit while being asleep can drain all your health, provided you never wake up before you get pounded. PAR might happy a few turns in a row, but the chance is pretty slim. Burn... see poison. Sleep has only sleep talk and insomnia (early bird too, but...) to counter, and Insomnia pokes aren't that great, and it wasn't even around in GSCRBY...

That's the rationale anyways, I don't particularly agree with either side, I think they both make valid points. Definately pro sleep clause though :p

(and LK/Sleep powder are both 75%)