Racist Flags?

[Inferno]

This came up in another thread recently about the American Confederate flag and how some view it as racist, but others view it as a momento of history and somehting to be proud of. Do you think flags can really be racist? Or is that just something that people say to stir up trouble and use as an excuse to say the word oppression?

[liquid crystal]

This is an interesting topic, and coincidentally enough, just the other day I heard about this on the radio.

Apparently, some folks want the South Vietnam flag to be the official flag for Vietnamese-Americans, while many other folks believe that this would be offensive because of the connotations associated with the Saigon regime.


As for the Confederacy's flag, I don't think it's racist, just goofy. Only hicks and rednecks put Confederate flag bumper stickers on their cars, in my experience.

[JohtoTrainer]

This is an interesting topic, and coincidentally enough, just the other day I heard about this on the radio.

Apparently, some folks want the South Vietnam flag to be the official flag for Vietnamese-Americans, while many other folks believe that this would be offensive because of the connotations associated with the Saigon regime.


As for the Confederacy's flag, I don't think it's racist, just goofy. Only hicks and rednecks put Confederate flag bumper stickers on their cars, in my experience.

Hicks? WTF? Shut up.

It's called heritage. I'm not a hick or a redneck and I have a confederate flag flying at my house. Over-generalization. None of my black friends think it's racist, and one of them actually has one flying at his house.

[liquid crystal]

Hicks? WTF? Shut up.

It's called heritage. I'm not a hick or a redneck and I have a confederate flag flying at my house. Over-generalization. None of my black friends think it's racist, and one of them actually has one flying at his house.


It's just my oppinion, calm down.
Where do you live? Maybe it's deferent over there.

EDIT: Oh, you live in Virginia, never mind that question.

[Inferno]

hicks and rednecks is kinda strong. And where I'm from, those are fighting words. Those are up on a list with the N word and other racist/prejudice slang.

But anyway, I just look at the Confederate flag as a part of history, just like the South Vietnam flag. The really bad thing is that so many people have talked about it now that it DOES have a negative connotation, but only to ignorant people who don't actually know US/World history.

THere are some people though who just like to get a rise out of people, so they will sport a Confederate flag because it'll get some attention. And that should not be labeled as hickish, that is merely ignorance.

[liquid crystal]

Those are up on a list with the N word and other racist/prejudice slang.
What? How could you possibly compare those two?!

because it'll get some attention
There are better, much more subtle ways to get attention... And better less subtle ways, too.


Okay, I'll end this argument: I'm very sorry to anyone I might've offended.

[JohtoTrainer]

In some places calling someone a Hick is pretty much the same as calling a black person the N word. It's very offensive. The only difference is white people don't go around claling eachother hicks, but some black people do go around calling each other the N word. Pretty stupid if you ask me. :rolleyes:

[Bashaamo]

This is HATE flag:

http://www.markdery.com/archives/images/SWASTIKA.gif

It is offensive and represents a dark time in human history that should not be celebrated. This is an example of how a flag can be racist.

The flag of the CSA is not a symbol of hate or racism, but rather a historical symbol.

The fact is the majority of Confederate soldiers did not own slaves and went to war over sectionalist fervor and fear of loss of way of life thanks to newly elected Abe Lincoln. It is also true that many Confederate soldiers would have been racist, because black slaves were at the bottom of the social class in the south.

However to me the Confederate is a manifestation of the rebellious spirit that those confederates had. People should be proud of it. If I were a Southerner I'd be proud as hell of it.

[Inferno]

you are a smart man, Bashaamo. and I am proud. I am very proud of my heritage.

And here's a little tidbit, many of the african american slaves who were servants to the rich white men of the South had a better life than a lot of the poor white folks that lived during that time. They had housing that was paid for, enough food for every one of them, and the beatings did not occur as often as publicized. Of course I didn't live during that time, so I don't know. but those are the facts that have been proven to me.
That doesn't make slavery right by a long shot, but racism really isn't as big of a problem as prejudice between different social/financial classes. That seperation exists everywhere, and it hinders the growth of the nation and the world.
I'm going to end what I am saying, because it is off topic.

[!CeMAn]

i don't know my facts on this because i'm not an American... But isn't the Confederate flag the South's flag? The one that wanted to rebel against Lincoln and the Yankee army? The one that stood for slavery, hatred and war?

[Alakazam]

A flag cannot be racist. Period. A flag is a piece of cloth, usually marked with symbols. What makes people percieve flags as racist or hateful are certain interpretations of the symbols on the flags themselves, and, more importantly, the people that flew said flag(s).

Example: The flag of Nazi Germany is only seen as hateful because of the horrible nature of the Nazis and the unspeakable crimes they commited against humanity. If you take away the owner / creator of that flag, all you have is a red flag embossed with a swasitka, which is a buddhist sign of good fortune.

Now, on to the Confederate flag: this has always been a controversial flag, but, again, there is nothing wrong with the flag itself. Personally, I am completely disgusted with that flag...to me, it is the mark of a traitor, and symbolizes both hatred and rascism (as well as a sign of extreme antiamericanism). There's nothing ignorant about such an opinion, as much as you'd love to think there is.

Bashaamo: both the Nazi flag and the flag of the CSA are "historical symbols" by definition. :wink:

[Inferno]

No, that truly is ignorance. You don't know all the reasons behind CSA going to war with the North. If you actually believe the South's sole reason for going to war was to keep African Americans down, you are ignorant. Not everyone was racist. The rich plantation owners of the South wanted to go to war with the North. They feared the North not only taking away their cheap laborers, but taking over their jobs completely, disrupting their cash flow, and hindering the way of life they had set up for themselves. These plantation owners voiced that the Northerners hated the South's way of life, and that the only way to keep them from interfering was to go to war. Many of the plantation owners didn't truly think they could win the war, but they wanted to take the North down with them. Since they went with a fight, the North lost money and resources and people along with the South. Making it seem less harsh on the South. Some yankees owned slaves though. And many African Americans who were freed and went to the North for a "better way of life" ended up coming back because work was too scarce, prices were too high, and it was just over-populated. I know of several cases when the ex-slaves came back and worked under the same conditions, but only they were "paid" this time around, and could spend their money freely and could go where they wanted. The crime rate increased after slavery was abolished. So many of the ex-slaves were out on their own without housing, food, clothes, and money they had to resort to theivery. The Confederate flag doesn't represent hatred and racism in the way that you think. Confederate soliders never stood for hatred. They stood for pride in their way of life and heritage. Which is what it stands for still today. But to say that the flag stands for war and racism, almost every flag stands for that. Flags are a universal symbol of war, it was in ancient China, Rome, Egypt, South America, Latin America, North America, All of Euro-Asia, even the Phillipines, Indonesia, and everywhere you can think of just about. Flags receive a stigmatism because they are most frequently flown and seen during times of war and hardship, because war brings out patriotism, and that's truly what flags should be. Signs of patriotism. But truthfully, I cannot see any flag as being racist, depicting hatred, and being a remembrance of war. People should have pride in the flags they fly, just like they should see the glory in their heritage. But what's the use, people will always believe what is instilled in them, preaching won't really change much. It might give more distinction between right and wrong, but it can never really change people's opinions. So, why try.

[Bashaamo]

Bashaamo: both the Nazi flag and the flag of the CSA are "historical symbols" by definition. :wink:

Poor choice of words on my part. I was speaking in the context of contemporary dispalys of the flag (on cars, signs, tattos, etc.). Usually when you see someone with the Nazi flag displayed they are not descendents of the Nazis or have any physical connection to Nazi Germany, they show the flag for hate not history.

And as I see it at least 9/10 times the Confederate flag is shown by those of Southern descent who are proud of this symbol and the history that they have a bond to behind it.

Simply put the descendents of the Nazis for the most part are ashamed of that flag, but those whose ancestors were the "Johnny Rebs" are proud of their historical connection to the "stars and bars."

But again poor word choice on my part.

But also Alakazam you needn't remind us with your "a flag is just a flag" I think we went into this discussion with that knowledge.

[Alakazam]

No, that truly is ignorance.

Not at all. It's simply a point of view that differs from your own, but is just as valid, which is something you clearly fail to grasp.

You don't know all the reasons behind CSA going to war with the North.

Oh really? wrong again

If you actually believe the South's sole reason for going to war was to keep African Americans down, you are ignorant.

Well then, you just proved with your own logic that I am not ignorant, since I never siad that I believe that, which I certainly do not.



Not everyone was racist. The rich plantation owners of the South wanted to go to war with the North. They feared the North not only taking away their cheap laborers, but taking over their jobs completely, disrupting their cash flow, and hindering the way of life they had set up for themselves. These plantation owners voiced that the Northerners hated the South's way of life, and that the only way to keep them from interfering was to go to war. Many of the plantation owners didn't truly think they could win the war, but they wanted to take the North down with them. Since they went with a fight, the North lost money and resources and people along with the South. Making it seem less harsh on the South. Some yankees owned slaves though. And many African Americans who were freed and went to the North for a "better way of life" ended up coming back because work was too scarce, prices were too high, and it was just over-populated. I know of several cases when the ex-slaves came back and worked under the same conditions, but only they were "paid" this time around, and could spend their money freely and could go where they wanted. The crime rate increased after slavery was abolished. So many of the ex-slaves were out on their own without housing, food, clothes, and money they had to resort to theivery.

Thanks for the history lesson....you assume (and assume wrongly) that you're telling me things I've never heard before.

The Confederate flag doesn't represent hatred and racism in the way that you think. Confederate soliders never stood for hatred. They stood for pride in their way of life and heritage. Which is what it stands for still today. But to say that the flag stands for war and racism, almost every flag stands for that. Flags are a universal symbol of war, it was in ancient China, Rome, Egypt, South America, Latin America, North America, All of Euro-Asia, even the Phillipines, Indonesia, and everywhere you can think of just about. Flags receive a stigmatism because they are most frequently flown and seen during times of war and hardship, because war brings out patriotism, and that's truly what flags should be. Signs of patriotism.

Symbols (all flags are symbols) are meaningless without interpretation. There is no universal interpretation of any symbol, especially flags. What you say about the interpretation of the CSA flag by the original creators is true, though it doesn't make any other intrepretations less valid.

Allow me to give you an example to illustrate my point: Consider a man who leads a tribe of native americans. He is the leader. and he creates a flag to represent his people. Years later, this tribe makes war (flying that same flag) on a local village of white people (the reasons for the war starting aren't relevant). To the people of the town being attacked, that flag represent pain, suffering, anf death, since the only time they looked upon it was as their village was veing attacked. Are they wrong? Are they ignorant? Of course not.

Let me again return to the swastika as an example. Originally, it was meant to be a symbol of good luck / good fortune. Would you say that its ignorant to interpret the flag as a symbol of racsism? I certainly hope not.

You're right that most flags of nations could be tied to war, and why not? It makes perfect sense to some people. For Iraqis during the 2003 US invasion to interpret the US flag as a symbol of war and death is just as logical as patriotic Americans to view it as a symbol of freedom and pride.

But truthfully, I cannot see any flag as being racist, depicting hatred, and being a remembrance of war. People should have pride in the flags they fly, just like they should see the glory in their heritage. But what's the use, people will always believe what is instilled in them, preaching won't really change much.It might give more distinction between right and wrong, but it can never really change people's opinions. So, why try.

While I agree with you that a flag cannot in and of itself be rascist, I think it can certainly represent hatred or war. I think you need to get off your high horse and realize that everyone who doesn't think like you is ignorant. You haven't given us any distinction between right and wrong' you've just proved to me your own ignorance of other views.

[Alakazam]

(sorry for the double post)

Poor choice of words on my part. I was speaking in the context of contemporary dispalys of the flag (on cars, signs, tattos, etc.). Usually when you see someone with the Nazi flag displayed they are not descendents of the Nazis or have any physical connection to Nazi Germany, they show the flag for hate not history.

Granted; I was merely playing the devil's advocate. But yes, I do agree that the Nazi flag carries far darker symbolism than the confederate flag.


But also Alakazam you needn't remind us with your "a flag is just a flag" I think we went into this discussion with that knowledge.

I'd like to believe that, but I felt it was neccesary. My apologizies to you if you already knew that.

[Inferno]

You are right. I assumed you did not know all of those facts and thoughts, because those confirm to me that the flag is not racist or hateful. But now that I know you know all those facts and you still believe what you believe, you no longer lack the knowledge in my eyes, there for making you not ignorant, yet educated and opinionated.
I also was not attacking you directly saying that you said or believed southerners "went to war to keep African Americans down." But there are many people who argue that.

I know I did not give distinction between right and wrong, that's why I gave up.
But please educate me if you see that I am ignorant and lack knowledge on subjects.

[!CeMAn]

if you are American, this is your flag:

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:yFIqUjzVwz8J:www.pjstar.com/images/dailypics

Waving that Confederate flag around instead of this one... it seems like you're giving your own country the finger. Like you want to be divided from the north. That's not 'proud of decent', it's more like rebel rousing.

Furthermore, don't cling to the past by embracing a flag which got it's butt kicked. You could just as easily find more positive symbols to be proud of. Raise the American flag with pride because, face it: That's your country's flag and that's the flag that will protect you in time of war. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Just a casual observer's opinion... Please don't hate me.

[Alakazam]

if you are American, this is your flag:

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:yFIqUjzVwz8J:www.pjstar.com/images/dailypics

Waving that Confederate flag around instead of this one... it seems like you're giving your own country the finger. Like you want to be divided from the north. That's not 'proud of decent', it's more like rebel rousing.

Furthermore, don't cling to the past by embracing a flag which got it's butt kicked. You could just as easily find more positive symbols to be proud of. Raise the American flag with pride because, face it: That's your country's flag and that's the flag that will protect you in time of war. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Just a casual observer's opinion... Please don't hate me.

My sentiments exactly :ermm:

[liquid crystal]

if you are American, this is your flag:

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:yFIqUjzVwz8J:www.pjstar.com/images/dailypics

Waving that Confederate flag around instead of this one... it seems like you're giving your own country the finger. Like you want to be divided from the north. That's not 'proud of decent', it's more like rebel rousing.

Furthermore, don't cling to the past by embracing a flag which got it's butt kicked. You could just as easily find more positive symbols to be proud of. Raise the American flag with pride because, face it: That's your country's flag and that's the flag that will protect you in time of war. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Just a casual observer's opinion... Please don't hate me.

I'll probably be yelled at again in this thread for saying this, but--

My mother has a bumper sticker with the flag of Ireland; my family and I are quite proud of our Irish heritage, but we have neither a bumper sticker of nor and actual US flag: Does this automatically make us anti-American? Are we "rousing" all those Irish-American "rebels"?

[!CeMAn]

I'll probably be yelled at again in this thread for saying this, but--

My mother has a bumper sticker with the flag of Ireland; my family and I are quite proud of our Irish heritage, but we have neither a bumper sticker of nor and actual US flag: Does this automatically make us anti-American? Are we "rousing" all those Irish-American "rebels"?

i don't think so. That's different.

in the same breath, however, one could ask you what you're doing in a country where you feel you'd rather hold up a flag of a different country.

[Alakazam]

I'll probably be yelled at again in this thread for saying this, but--

My mother has a bumper sticker with the flag of Ireland; my family and I are quite proud of our Irish heritage, but we have neither a bumper sticker of nor and actual US flag: Does this automatically make us anti-American? Are we "rousing" all those Irish-American "rebels"?

Of course not, since Ireland isn't a dead "nation" that suceeded from the US and went to war with it, and lost.

[Herp]

Now, i have a comment on the nazi "flag of hate." ive studied Hitler's age for a while now, and learned that most of it, was against the nazi's will or that they just didnt know hitler's intentions. I recommend if you want to really learn what happened, that you read [I]"Hitler Youth" By Susan Campbell Bartoletti. I learned alot from this book and I want to share it with others. While im at it i suppose I'd like to thank my 6th grade L.A. teacher, Ms. Sarah Artrip for geting me into learning about Germany's History.

EDIT: Liquid, im also Irish and quite proud of it :happy:

[Sudo]

Stop reviving old threads Herp!

Read the rules in the time you spend not reviving old topics.

[Hogtree]

Since it's been bumped anyway:
http://www8.plala.or.jp/TheDrops/union%20jack.gif
is seen as a racist flags in the UK. Weird but true. Mainly because of the "British National Party [BNP]" holding a similar flag.

Who are the BNP? I bunch of lowlife racist Neo-Nazi scum. [Which I guess you already realised.]

I've got a question then. This Confederate-bashing [which since I don't know anything about, I'll keep out of the arguements]? What about the English, Scottish, Welsh and Northerm Irish flags?