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  #46  
Old 03-11-2011, 08:35 PM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Alonso View Post
lolwut.

Even if homosexuality is something genetic, it's still a problem.
Excuse me while I hit you with my favorite question for people like you: why?
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  #47  
Old 03-13-2011, 04:03 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Lord Khajmer View Post
Excuse me while I hit you with my favorite question for people like you: why?
Homosexuality is just wrong. Heterosexuality is what perpetuates the species.

I'm still not saying homosexuals should be eradicated.

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
It is not a problem per se, for I have nothing against it. Being gay is not a problem, it is simply something different. I have no problem with hanging out with gay people, it is when they get all in your face about it. That is when I start to say, "Okay, son. That is enough."

- Long live Negima!
It's not a global problem like world hunger or terrorism but it's a problem for themselves. One can only wonder what happened to early homosexual humans.
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  #48  
Old 03-13-2011, 04:29 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Alonso View Post
Homosexuality is just wrong. Heterosexuality is what perpetuates the species.
You seem to be implying that something that doesn't perpetuate the species is therefore amoral? How do you define wrong? How does homosexuality fundamentally cause this wrong? Saying that homosexuality is "wrong" is entirely not a justification. It just shuts off all methods of communication because you have some sort of gut thing that you're not thinking about and cannot admit to it that you haven't actually really thought about it on a deeper level other than the most superficial.

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It's not a global problem like world hunger or terrorism but it's a problem for themselves. One can only wonder what happened to early homosexual humans.
Nothing. Shakespeare considered himself to loving young boys as something "natural" and "true", that true love can only happen between members of the same gender. It isn't all that uncommon in the Victorian era, for example, to consider homosexuality as something entirely normal. Heck, for most of human history, women were just baby-generating flesh bags while "true love" was between men and this only really changed in the past couple hundred years or so. It's only a problem for homosexual people only in a sense that they are being discriminated about now.

It's not that hard to find that the reason why some people find homosexuality is a problem or "wrong" is because of their religion. I respect that, but I disagree with that, simply because I find homosexuality to be absolutely something that you can engineer and has a genetic basis. That is, while we don't understand human homosexuality, we certainly know that it is here to stay as it's in our genes somewhere. It's certainly in a large enough proportion to be called "wild type" nowadays.
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  #49  
Old 03-13-2011, 04:42 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Alonso View Post
Homosexuality is just wrong. Heterosexuality is what perpetuates the species.
I don't know if you noticed, but human as a species have moved beyond "we must procreate." There will always be heterosexuals to perpetuate the species. We don't necessarily need more.

Furthermore, if it's genetically encoded, then it isn't wrong. It's literally part of nature's formula, if there is a gene for it and the person does not suffer for it then there is nothing wrong with it. And fyi, any problems caused by homosexuality are not the fault of the homosexual, but the fault of you and others like you who assert that it is wrong. Homosexuals aren't the problem, you are.

Quote:
It's not a global problem like world hunger or terrorism but it's a problem for themselves. One can only wonder what happened to early homosexual humans.
They had fairly pleasant lives with their fellow humans hunting and gathering, and later involving themselves in the day to day activities of life in whatever Empire happened to be big at the time, and just not happening to pass on their genes.
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  #50  
Old 03-13-2011, 04:47 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
You seem to be implying that something that doesn't perpetuate the species is therefore amoral? How do you define wrong? How does homosexuality fundamentally cause this wrong? Saying that homosexuality is "wrong" is entirely not a justification. It just shuts off all methods of communication because you have some sort of gut thing that you're not thinking about and cannot admit to it that you haven't actually really thought about it on a deeper level other than the most superficial.

Nothing. Shakespeare considered himself to loving young boys as something "natural" and "true", that true love can only happen between members of the same gender. It isn't all that uncommon in the Victorian era, for example, to consider homosexuality as something entirely normal. Heck, for most of human history, women were just baby-generating flesh bags while "true love" was between men and this only really changed in the past couple hundred years or so. It's only a problem for homosexual people only in a sense that they are being discriminated about now.

It's not that hard to find that the reason why some people find homosexuality is a problem or "wrong" is because of their religion. I respect that, but I disagree with that, simply because I find homosexuality to be absolutely something that you can engineer and has a genetic basis. That is, while we don't understand human homosexuality, we certainly know that it is here to stay as it's in our genes somewhere. It's certainly in a large enough proportion to be called "wild type" nowadays.
Well, I don't believe that something that doesn't perpetuate the species is amoral; I can't be anymore direct than that. I do not have a religion either. I don't follow any pope, pastor or god. I'm trying to look at the situation through a scientific stand point, and because I am trying to look at it through a scientific stand point, I don't really care what Shakespeare or Victorian era people felt about love.

Even if you can engineer homosexuality, it doesn't mean we will do it to humans. I think it is apparent that a human was meant to be attracted to the opposite sex. Because homosexuality can be traced to genetic origins then I conclude that homosexuality is just a genetic mutation.
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  #51  
Old 03-13-2011, 04:52 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

Do you know what would be hilarious? Alonso's ancestors were homosexuals. That would seriously make me happy. Look, saying homosexuality is wrong, is like saying being african american is wrong. There are genes that determine both, they're not choices. How can you say it's wrong to be a normal human?
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  #52  
Old 03-13-2011, 05:01 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Ant2011 View Post
Do you know what would be hilarious? Alonso's ancestors were homosexuals. That would seriously make me happy. Look, saying homosexuality is wrong, is like saying being african american is wrong. There are genes that determine both, they're not choices. How can you say it's wrong to be a normal human?
Well they can't. At least not if they were a direct ancestor. If someone in my family was a homosexual then so be it. I can't do anything about it. They were born that way and that's that. Nothing I can do about it and nothing I will do about it. It's purely genetic.

We had the homosexual debate a few years ago here at PE2K. Really controversial then, still controversial now. I remember I said stuff way more controversial in that old thread and people flamed me like there was no tomorrow. It's obviously a touchy issue for some. You can say all you want Ant. It doesn't affect me.

There is nothing wrong with being African American and btw an African American isn't determined by genes.
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  #53  
Old 03-13-2011, 05:15 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Alonso View Post
There is nothing wrong with being African American and btw an African American isn't determined by genes.
Um... what? Of course being black is determined by genes, that's why if your parents are black you're black, and if your parents aren't black then you're not black. It's related to the amount of melanin in your skin which is controlled by your genes.
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  #54  
Old 03-13-2011, 05:17 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Lord Khajmer View Post
Um... what? Of course being black is determined by genes, that's why if your parents are black you're black, and if your parents aren't black then you're not black. It's related to the amount of melanin in your skin which is controlled by your genes.
Not all African Americans have "black" skin. Just look at Vin Diesel or North Africans.

If Ant2011 meant "black," he should've been direct.

Hey Ant2011, homosexuality and having black or dark skin may be linked to genes but the reasons behind them are completely different.
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  #55  
Old 03-13-2011, 05:28 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Alonso View Post
Not all African Americans have "black" skin. Just look at Vin Diesel or North Africans.

If Ant2011 meant "black," he should've been direct.
I apologize, I consider the term "African American" to be relatively insulting, implying that it's a different kind of American. Same goes for "Asian American" or "Latin American." I use the term black where you use the term "African American" because that term historically has applied generally to those of African descent. It has nothing to do with the literal color of the skin.
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  #56  
Old 03-13-2011, 09:53 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Alonso View Post
Not all African Americans have "black" skin. Just look at Vin Diesel or North Africans.

If Ant2011 meant "black," he should've been direct.

Hey Ant2011, homosexuality and having black or dark skin may be linked to genes but the reasons behind them are completely different.

So what you are saying is that genes have a reason? They have a reason to modify our basic human needs and physical appearance? They are alive? There is no real reason for genes to mutate except for an odd physical concentration on a human, same with skin color. There is no difference, they are both caused by genetic differences.
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  #57  
Old 03-14-2011, 12:08 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Alonso View Post
Hey Ant2011, homosexuality and having black or dark skin may be linked to genes but the reasons behind them are completely different.
Would you mind enlightening us on that?

Interestingly, it is specifically that I look at things at a scientific level that I find your comment about homosexuality being "wrong" to be even more baffling than before. Considering that science doesn't care about what's "right" or "wrong", it seems rather weird to come to any conclusion about homosexuality in terms of right and wrong under the context of science.

To be frank, Science doesn't care about morality or lack thereof. It is a secondary branch of science, ethics, that deals with the morality of science and the like. That is, the study of "morality" and "good" under the context of science. It's through ethics that we treat human beings as human beings regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, age, etc. This is why us as doctors strive to be as ethical as we can be.

You're making a fundamental assumption that males are meant to be with females. Have you ever questioned why you made this assumption in the first place? Certainly science can't provide you with that assumption. Consider that we of science have seen everything from asexual reproduction to cross-species breeding, we can't exactly define that something is meant for something else by the basis that it is the most common thing we see. By this analogy of yours, humans are meant to have O blood type only, but we know that people have A and B blood types (and some other rarer ones too). This just seems absurd.

Homosexuality is at worst a polymorphism due to its prevalence. Calling it a mutation isn't entirely true, from a scientific standpoint.
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  #58  
Old 03-14-2011, 12:51 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
You're making a fundamental assumption that males are meant to be with females. Have you ever questioned why you made this assumption in the first place? Certainly science can't provide you with that assumption. Consider that we of science have seen everything from asexual reproduction to cross-species breeding, we can't exactly define that something is meant for something else by the basis that it is the most common thing we see. By this analogy of yours, humans are meant to have O blood type only, but we know that people have A and B blood types (and some other rarer ones too). This just seems absurd.
I would also add to that that science not only doesn't give any assumptions, science as a practice actively discourages assumptions. In order to look at something scientifically you must take a rationalist perspective to it, which requires the elimination of all preconceptions and opinions not backed by thorough experimentation. Then taking that to the ethical aspect of science, as Kenny pointed out, unless it can be scientifically proven to cause direct harm to another individual's well-being, it is not ethically wrong.
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  #59  
Old 03-14-2011, 04:15 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Lord Khajmer View Post
unless it can be scientifically proven to cause direct harm to another individual's well-being, it is not ethically wrong.
Even then it's context dependent. Administering a patient methotrexate is harming them and their well being, but it also kills cancer cells. It is ethical to administer methotrexate to a cancer patient.
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  #60  
Old 03-14-2011, 11:47 PM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
So what you are saying is that genes have a reason? They have a reason to modify our basic human needs and physical appearance? They are alive? There is no real reason for genes to mutate except for an odd physical concentration on a human, same with skin color. There is no difference, they are both caused by genetic differences.
Darker skin has something to do with survival in the wilderness and loss of human hair. In short, to help adapt, fix a problem.

Homosexuality just genes gone wrong in the human bio. Heterosexuality doesn't need fixing. Its function is to ensure procreation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
Would you mind enlightening us on that?

Interestingly, it is specifically that I look at things at a scientific level that I find your comment about homosexuality being "wrong" to be even more baffling than before. Considering that science doesn't care about what's "right" or "wrong", it seems rather weird to come to any conclusion about homosexuality in terms of right and wrong under the context of science.

To be frank, Science doesn't care about morality or lack thereof. It is a secondary branch of science, ethics, that deals with the morality of science and the like. That is, the study of "morality" and "good" under the context of science. It's through ethics that we treat human beings as human beings regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, age, etc. This is why us as doctors strive to be as ethical as we can be.

You're making a fundamental assumption that males are meant to be with females. Have you ever questioned why you made this assumption in the first place? Certainly science can't provide you with that assumption. Consider that we of science have seen everything from asexual reproduction to cross-species breeding, we can't exactly define that something is meant for something else by the basis that it is the most common thing we see. By this analogy of yours, humans are meant to have O blood type only, but we know that people have A and B blood types (and some other rarer ones too). This just seems absurd.

Homosexuality is at worst a polymorphism due to its prevalence. Calling it a mutation isn't entirely true, from a scientific standpoint.
I do not mean wrong in the sense of morality. I mean it as a problem. Like when an engine isn't functioning properly because something is wrong in the design. An organism with the wrong design either dies out or changes. In science we may have seen everything but do humans reproduce asexually? No. Cross-species breeding is more common in the lab. Males are meant to be with females, or at least they are meant to be attracted to the opposite sex in order to procreate. Organisms are meant to multiply. Same-sex attraction gets you no where.

...

In case in it isn't clear yet. No, I am not a religious person.
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Last edited by Alonso; 03-14-2011 at 11:59 PM.
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