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  #61  
Old 03-23-2011, 05:05 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Originally Posted by aeoneeveemoon View Post
If you pay a doctor and a plumber the same wage, the doctor will naturally think, Oh, well, I work much more than he does even though our wages are the same. Therefore, I think I shall do as little work as I possibly can because there's no chance for advancement anyway. Ho-hum.
I'm not necessarily commenting on communism in a sense that it really doesn't have much of an impact on the discussion itself, but I'd like to clear up some of your misconceptions about my profession.

It runs under the assumption that all doctors care about are their wages. Some people are passionate enough about medicine to do it despite wage being an issue. For the rest of us, we just want the job stability. Doctors are generally bad business people. We don't want doctors who are otherwise.

Don't kid yourself on the US system for doctors is superior, because it isn't (in fact, it's significantly worse, healthcare-wise). Doctors, especially in the family medicine, pediatrics, and Ob/Gyn specialties, are notorious for being heavily underpaid and in general a slave to insurance companies and lawyers. I've seen many cases where doctors of these specialties are having difficulty staying afloat. In fact, I've heard from some colleagues in peds that they are paying money out of their pockets to practice, because the amount they make is less than the amount they need to pay out through things like malpractice insurance. The majority of doctors are in primary care like family med, peds, and Ob/Gyn. Very few are in the big money-making specialties like orthopedics surgery or neurosurgery.

Most doctors work on a dead end job anyway. Primary care is dead end. There is no advancement. You'll never get paid any more than you do once your patient count stabilize. There are very few hospital directors, and those are taken by hotshots in high-end specialties and those with connections.

When people say stuff like "oh you'll be fine, you'll make a ton of cash later anyway" because they have a preconceived notion that doctors make a lot of money. Most of us don't. Sure we make more money than the average middle-class salary worker, but it really isn't that much more.

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Originally Posted by aeoneeveemoon View Post
I pretty much disagree with everything our amazing leaders here in the U S of A do nowadays. Especially Obama. Even most Republicans are hypocitical nitwits today. And if anyone wonders why Americans have become so lazy it's because we don't even have to work to earn a freaking living anymore.
Mnehhhh. I'm personally Conservative all the way, and anyone 'pro-choice' can come and be flamed, since that's pretty much my major point against liberals.
I'm so going to get flamed now...
I could care less about your pro-life stance. Unless you cross the line and invade the ability for a doctor to perform abortions, there isn't much that I care about the pro-life camp. Unlike you, who have a moral highhorse, we work under the idea of patient autonomy: we must perform or refer to a doctor who can perform abortions if the patient wants to even if we are pro-life. We place the wellbeing of our patients first and give them a safe way of performing abortions instead of doing it themselves, get peritonitis, and die. Under the circumstance that this is the case, all doctors are pro-choice regardless of their stance outside of their profession. If they aren't, they aren't real doctors.
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  #62  
Old 03-23-2011, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Originally Posted by aeoneeveemoon View Post
I don't suppose anyone here who supports Communism knows that it's just one of those things that sounds really fantastic on paper but then does not work in real life?
See here.
If you pay a doctor and a plumber the same wage, the doctor will naturally think, Oh, well, I work much more than he does even though our wages are the same. Therefore, I think I shall do as little work as I possibly can because there's no chance for advancement anyway. Ho-hum.
Wow, and I thought I was cynical. Doctors work hard because their job is to help people. They take a solemn oath to do so. People who make this argument, I find, don't seem to get that people who will do a good job as doctors or teachers, etc., are the ones who don't do it for the money, they do it because they know their job makes a difference.

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I pretty much disagree with everything our amazing leaders here in the U S of A do nowadays. Especially Obama. Even most Republicans are hypocitical nitwits today. And if anyone wonders why Americans have become so lazy it's because we don't even have to work to earn a freaking living anymore.
Mnehhhh. I'm personally Conservative all the way, and anyone 'pro-choice' can come and be flamed, since that's pretty much my major point against liberals.
I'm so going to get flamed now...
Hey, you don't follow the lead of political big wigs like a sheep. You're cool by me.
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  #63  
Old 03-23-2011, 08:36 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post



I could care less about your pro-life stance. Unless you cross the line and invade the ability for a doctor to perform abortions, there isn't much that I care about the pro-life camp. Unlike you, who have a moral highhorse, we work under the idea of patient autonomy: we must perform or refer to a doctor who can perform abortions if the patient wants to even if we are pro-life. We place the wellbeing of our patients first and give them a safe way of performing abortions instead of doing it themselves, get peritonitis, and die. Under the circumstance that this is the case, all doctors are pro-choice regardless of their stance outside of their profession. If they aren't, they aren't real doctors.
Highly ironic, considering the Hippocratic Oath, neh? So it is okay to have a child born, and immediately place it in a room to starve, but once it leaves the hospital, 'tis murder! REDRUM! REDRUM!

It is murder unless it is "killed" before brain waves are emitted.
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  #64  
Old 03-24-2011, 01:34 AM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
Highly ironic, considering the Hippocratic Oath, neh? So it is okay to have a child born, and immediately place it in a room to starve, but once it leaves the hospital, 'tis murder! REDRUM! REDRUM!

It is murder unless it is "killed" before brain waves are emitted.
No, it actually isn't. "Murder" by legal definition is to end the life of a human being, where human being is a separate term from being biologically human. Being that "human being" lacks a legitimate legal definition, it's extremely legally gray, and only determined by legal interpretation, which in this case (in the United States) goes to the US Supreme Court case Roe v. Wade, which determined that the mother's interests outweighed the child's legally up until the third trimester. Considering that "murder" refers to the absolute right to life and therefore cannot be outweighed as an interest by anyone whose life is not threatened otherwise, it is legally not murder until someone officially legally defines it as such.
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  #65  
Old 03-24-2011, 03:03 AM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
Highly ironic, considering the Hippocratic Oath, neh? So it is okay to have a child born, and immediately place it in a room to starve, but once it leaves the hospital, 'tis murder! REDRUM! REDRUM!

It is murder unless it is "killed" before brain waves are emitted.
Medical ethics doesn't use the Hippocratic oath anymore. It hasn't for quite a while, historically speaking. Hippocrates never foresaw the events arising now as medical technology has come to this. Hippocratic oath for example notes that we are to be paternalistic to our patients because we know what's best for them. This sort of mindframe has come to an end when "autonomy" came along with the great renaissance of medical ethics.

Heck, we don't even practice primum non nocere either.

Your definition makes it hard to determine when that would be the appropriate time. Do we consider, for example, any neuron to be part of the brain before they are known to be a part of a certain organ (i.e. it can be part of the CNS, ANS, or the ENS. The impossibility of this method of determination makes it a real challenge without much benefit overall for patient. I appreciate your opinion, but I'm just stating the obvious as well.

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No, it actually isn't. "Murder" by legal definition is to end the life of a human being, where human being is a separate term from being biologically human. Being that "human being" lacks a legitimate legal definition, it's extremely legally gray, and only determined by legal interpretation, which in this case (in the United States) goes to the US Supreme Court case Roe v. Wade, which determined that the mother's interests outweighed the child's legally up until the third trimester. Considering that "murder" refers to the absolute right to life and therefore cannot be outweighed as an interest by anyone whose life is not threatened otherwise, it is legally not murder until someone officially legally defines it as such.
Agreed. I generally consider a fetus a living human being under the circumstance that they can live without intensive care or obviously "easy" procedures, which tends to coincide with the 3rd trimester. In general, almost no doctor would take an abortion near the 3rd trimester except under special circumstances anyway.
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  #66  
Old 03-24-2011, 02:58 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
Medical ethics doesn't use the Hippocratic oath anymore. It hasn't for quite a while, historically speaking. Hippocrates never foresaw the events arising now as medical technology has come to this. Hippocratic oath for example notes that we are to be paternalistic to our patients because we know what's best for them. This sort of mindframe has come to an end when "autonomy" came along with the great renaissance of medical ethics.

Heck, we don't even practice primum non nocere either.

Your definition makes it hard to determine when that would be the appropriate time. Do we consider, for example, any neuron to be part of the brain before they are known to be a part of a certain organ (i.e. it can be part of the CNS, ANS, or the ENS. The impossibility of this method of determination makes it a real challenge without much benefit overall for patient. I appreciate your opinion, but I'm just stating the obvious as well.
Um, my Uncle became a doctor just a year or two ago, and you still have to say the Hippocratic Oath. It is not a waste of breath.

Also, keep in mind that ethics and morals are different. Ethics is what is right, morals are just simply what society expects of someone.

Bottom line, abortion is wrong unless the "child" is "killed" before initial formation of the brain. This has nothing to do with political discussion anyway, I suggest we get back on topic.
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  #67  
Old 03-24-2011, 04:13 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
Um, my Uncle became a doctor just a year or two ago, and you still have to say the Hippocratic Oath. It is not a waste of breath.
I think what Kenny means is that while you still say it, it doesn't carry nearly as much weight in medical ethics anymore.

Quote:
Also, keep in mind that ethics and morals are different. Ethics is what is right, morals are just simply what society expects of someone.
No, ethics is the objective study of what is right and what is wrong, e.g. an ethical code, while morals are the personal view of what is right and what is wrong based on personal beliefs, e.g. a moral code. You may consider abortion wrong morally, but from an ethical standpoint, which is what doctors have to follow, it is not wrong. They don't have to do it themselves if they don't believe in it morally-the same goes for assisted suicide-but they do have to aid the person in doing so by directing them to someone who can because of their ethical obligations as doctors.

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Bottom line, abortion is wrong unless the "child" is "killed" before initial formation of the brain. This has nothing to do with political discussion anyway, I suggest we get back on topic.
Abortion, being a hot button political topic, absolutely is on topic for this thread, which has quite clearly become about political debate.

In any case, you are certainly entitled to your moral belief, although as Kenny said, that's a ridiculously vague statement, but ethically speaking, considering the results seen in countries where abortion is illegal, it is not and should not be considered wrong to the point of banning it.
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  #68  
Old 03-29-2011, 02:45 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

If you have ever read the book Infidel, I think your opinion would change.
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  #69  
Old 03-29-2011, 09:02 PM
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You mean this book? Doubtful. It doesn't have much to do with abortion.

Also, having a brain is meaningless towards ethical dilemmas. If "having a brain" were the only concern then all pro-lifers would be vegetarians. The development of that brain is of far more importance than its mere existence.
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  #70  
Old 03-29-2011, 09:12 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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You mean this book? Doubtful. It doesn't have much to do with abortion.

Also, having a brain is meaningless towards ethical dilemmas. If "having a brain" were the only concern then all pro-lifers would be vegetarians. The development of that brain is of far more importance than its mere existence.
I don't want to have my child, thus I will kill it. I am not saying it needs a brain, I am saying it needs brainwaves to that of a human (6-9 months).

Um, Infidel... have you read it? She worked at an abortion clinic for years.

But, two camels in a car. I am not going to argue, I am tired of it.
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Old 03-29-2011, 09:33 PM
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I don't want to have my child, thus I will kill it. I am not saying it needs a brain, I am saying it needs brainwaves to that of a human (6-9 months).
So what's so special about the brainwaves of a 6-9 month old fetus? What's your definition of human here?
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Old 03-29-2011, 09:35 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Um, my Uncle became a doctor just a year or two ago, and you still have to say the Hippocratic Oath. It is not a waste of breath.
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Originally Posted by Lord Khajmer View Post
I think what Kenny means is that while you still say it, it doesn't carry nearly as much weight in medical ethics anymore.
When I said it's not used anymore. I meant it. The official stance is not the Hippocratic Oath at all. Individual medical schools may have the Hippocratic Oath, but as long as one belongs to the AMA, that would be their ultimate stance. There's nothing really wrong with the Hippocratic Oath as long as it doesn't contradict with the AMA ethical codes, but it certainly isn't the principle guiding method as you are being lead to believe.

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Also, keep in mind that ethics and morals are different. Ethics is what is right, morals are just simply what society expects of someone.
Morality is an individualistic understanding of what's right and wrong, and may have societal impact and other influences. Ethics is a scientific study of morality to determine the best recourse. The two are entwined, which is why ethics deals with abortion as a major topic.

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Bottom line, abortion is wrong unless the "child" is "killed" before initial formation of the brain. This has nothing to do with political discussion anyway, I suggest we get back on topic.
So now there's a change in the stance you've made. While better, when do you define when there is a brain? For example, the embryological neural tube is composed of neurological ectodermal cells that form the brain. That tube forms in the 1st week of development.

In any case, as I have said before, I don't really care unless you're hindering doctors from doing their jobs, which you should understand by now that it's not up to them to decide for the patients. I just want you to understand that those people who are doing such things are undoubtedly wrong and should never be supported for their actions.

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Originally Posted by Lord Khajmer View Post
assisted suicide
Still a touchy subject that's heavily dealt with in ethics with the "anti-assisted suicide" camp winning. The current ethical stance is that we will never have assisted suicide or euthanasia.

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Originally Posted by Lord Khajmer View Post
Abortion, being a hot button political topic, absolutely is on topic for this thread, which has quite clearly become about political debate.

In any case, you are certainly entitled to your moral belief, although as Kenny said, that's a ridiculously vague statement, but ethically speaking, considering the results seen in countries where abortion is illegal, it is not and should not be considered wrong to the point of banning it.
Agreed. Pro-life/choice issue is often a hot topic in politics. This one has no clear-cut answer (unlike say evolution vs. creationism being taught in a science classroom) and will probably be a hot political topic for centuries to come. I think the current guidelines work well as it should err on the side of caution for the mother until things get sorted out.
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  #73  
Old 03-29-2011, 10:40 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Still a touchy subject that's heavily dealt with in ethics with the "anti-assisted suicide" camp winning. The current ethical stance is that we will never have assisted suicide or euthanasia.
It's legal in Oregon, Washington and Montana, actually, and in Oregon doctors are actually required to prescribe the drugs for it if the patient meets the conditions (of sound mind, 6 months or less to live, two witnesses certifying the request, etc.), although it does have to be self-administered. From the standpoint of ethics though, I suppose that probably is the case. Legally speaking, though, that's how it is in those states.
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  #74  
Old 03-30-2011, 05:21 AM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post



So now there's a change in the stance you've made. While better, when do you define when there is a brain? For example, the embryological neural tube is composed of neurological ectodermal cells that form the brain. That tube forms in the 1st week of development.
From what I have learned, as time passes, the brain waves get stronger and stronger as the brain forms.

Also, there was no change in stance. That is what I said previously about the subject.

The OP is asking us about our political views, and I think it is plain to see where everyone stands. If one wants to argue about moral and ethical dilemmas, I suggest you open up a thread for such a discussion.
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  #75  
Old 03-30-2011, 09:16 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
From what I have learned, as time passes, the brain waves get stronger and stronger as the brain forms.
"Brainwaves" have nothing to do with consciousness or sentience or anything that has to do with how human something is. Whatever connection that does exist is tenuous at best.
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