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  #1  
Old 03-27-2013, 03:46 PM
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Default WAR XII Discussion and Planning

WELCOME TO WAR XII DISCUSSION

As the title suggests, this is the hot spot to discuss all things WAR-related. This first post is subject to change around at any time depending on how things develop, so yeah, stay tuned for updates.

If you're new to the WAR and haven't taken part in it yet or this is your first time hearing about it, don't be shy. It's a lot of fun, it's been a great tradition here, and all of us started new at one point or another just like you. It's hosted every year during the summer and typically lasts about four to five weeks. This is the 12th WAR Season. Face it, you know something's really good when it goes on for 12 seasons.

Generally the way a WAR works is that special WAR teams are created, each having their own special theme and characteristics that differ from the other teams. Some teams are brand new, while others return from previous WAR seasons. PE2K members then join these teams, and compete in various sections such as writing, art, Pokémon battling, role play, and many others. Each week, these sections are judged, and the winners receive points. At the end of the WAR, the team with the most points is the winner and is forever immortalized in WAR history.

So hopefully I'll be able to answer some of your questions before they're asked, as well as lay down some preliminary things to discuss.

So, what does WAR stand for?

Worldwide Arena Rivalry.

Actually, for the longest time, WAR didn't really have an acronym, and I kind of just made this one up on the fly. Yes, 12 seasons later. But you have to admit, it fits really well!

Who created the WAR?

Bashaamo did back in 2003 on the original PE2K forum, back when it was hosted by Proboards. However, many PE2K members have contributed toward the WAR's ongoing success throughout the years. The format of the WAR has varied here and there as we're always trying new things to add spice to the idea and add variety.

The member who has been the main campaigner for the WAR is none other than HKim. This dude is like the godfather of the WAR and has always played a very active role with it ever since Season 1. If the WAR was a physical place, there would be a Bulbasuar shrine for this guy.

Who is in charge of the WAR?

WAR Leaders. They are typically the ones who keep tabs on everything and make sure each section flows smoothly. They also appoint the judges of the sections, the guys and gals in charge of running the individual sections. And in the end, they make the final decisions regarding the rules and how things are handled.

Don't worry, they don't bite.

TOPICS FOR DISCUSSION

You're free and welcome to chat about just about any aspect of the WAR in here, as long as it's clean and friendly. But here are some topics up for discussion, just to get the ideas and discussions going. Just remember that it's helpful to explain your opinions and why you feel doing such and such would be a good idea.

- How long the WAR should be
Typically, the WAR lasts for four to five weeks, but we're always open to opinions as to whether people feel it should be shorter or longer than that.

- How WAR Teams are made and how many should there be
In the past, sometimes we've had it where only a set number of WAR teams (usually six) would be permitted to participate by teams that had to be approved by the WAR Leaders. Other times anyone could make a WAR team and take part as long as it had a minimum number of members (no one-man teams). Also, there has been variance as to the minimum number of members a team could have, as well as the maximum number of members (the "member ceiling" method, typically used to ensure all WAR teams get a fair share of members and one team doesn't hoard most of them). We have used many different methods for previous WARs and we're always welcome to hear whatever idea you may have.

- How members join teams
We've used several methods in the past, such as just letting people freely decide what team fits their likes most to having a draft setup where team leaders chose their members from a WAR member pool. Most people prefer simply picking whatever team they like, but again, it's open for discussion.

- WAR Starting Date
Usually the WAR starts late June or early July on a Sunday. Most people are out of school by this time, so they have a decent summer break to take part in WAR sections.

- Submission and Judging periods
Submission durations typically last from Monday to Friday, giving participants five days to submit entries and perform for that section. Judging then usually occurs on that weekend, giving the judge two days to review entries or tally performance and then declare winners. This system usually works pretty well, but again, if you have ideas and good reasons to feel this should be changed, don't be shy, speak up.

- Points
In the past, there has been discussion with regards to how many points each section should be awarding (some sections, like role play, demand more participation effort, time, and energy than others, so typically these sections have more points to award during a week). Also, many people feel judges should receive points toward their teams for their hard work judging the sections each week.

Anyway, I'm sure there are other topics out there regarding to the WAR that can be discussed here that I didn't mention.
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Old 03-29-2013, 02:31 AM
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Default Re: WAR XII Discussion and Planning

!!!NOTICE!!!

I have been talking to Harry and Typhlosion Explosion regarding the WAR, and we feel it would be best to strongly consider relocating the WAR to Harry's new Pokémon website, called Pokémon Crossroads, when it is up and fully operational, which is expected to be sometime late spring or early summer.

Having the WAR on a different site and forum would alleviate essentially all of the major issues that are going on with PE2K, such as the lag, the database errors, and the overall outdated feel this place has.

As long as people would be willing to create new profiles there, the transition should be pretty quick and painless, and we would have a nice, clean slate to work with. However, if it's kept on PE2K, we're constantly running the risk of experiencing lag and database errors during sensitive times, like judging periods and so on. Seeing as how it's very unlikely these issues are going to be fixed, I'd like to push everyone to strongly consider the idea of moving it to Harry's site.

Harry, as we all know, has championed and supported the WAR ever since it started ten years ago. I would be more than honored to help him by bringing the WAR to Pokémon Crossroads and give it a much better home. I also think it would be a cool way to celebrate the WAR's tenth anniversary by having it be established on Harry's site, a guy who has poured countless hours of time and energy into making the WAR the best it can be.

But as always, I'm welcome to discussion regarding this. Let me know what your thoughts are about this, but to me, I strongly believe we should consider the relocation for many reasons.
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Old 03-29-2013, 02:36 AM
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Default Re: WAR XII Discussion and Planning

I agree with the above statement of moving WAR.
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Old 03-29-2013, 02:42 AM
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Default Re: WAR XII Discussion and Planning

Seconded, but you already know of my concerns with the lag here XD
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Old 03-29-2013, 02:55 AM
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Default Re: WAR XII Discussion and Planning

Heh, I didn't know Harry was announcing this yet. xD

Anyway, yeah, I feel it would be better to move it to PXR.

As Neo said though, PXR isn't completed yet, if you guys find it and sign up you won't be able to see anything. :I
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Old 03-29-2013, 02:46 PM
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Default Re: WAR XII Discussion and Planning

- How long the WAR should be
I'm kind of worried about activity, to be honest. As a judge last year, activity was pretty bad for my Pokemon Online/Showdown section with one or two weeks with no submissions at all and the rest with 1-3. So, while I'm not a fan of this as a participant, I think it would be more intelligent to have four weeks to be on the safe side.

- How WAR Teams are made and how many should there be
I would personally like for the teams to be made in the same way as the past. I vote against a member limit, though if absolutely necessary, we can implement one later in the process (before the start of the actual WAR). Five to six feels like a good number to accept, though it's a number I would like to be able to change later on if it would be in our best interests, depending on how many teams can get over the minimum member limit/have a reasonable number of members.

- How members join teams
Just let members pick one. Saves trouble, and if need be, we can always ask for members to move around.

- WAR Starting Date
School ends for me late June, and I believe it's the same/similar for most other people. The last day of June (June 30th) is on a Sunday, so that feels like a perfect date to start it, with the week(s) before being used for pre-WAR stuff. I'm thinking of the RP specifically here as a section that would benefit from this.

- Submission and Judging periods
Yeah, the system has worked excellently in the past. I feel that, in the case of a late judging, somebody should be designated to step in and take over to grade things and set a new theme for the week. Ideally, this would be one or two people total across all of the sections. I think last year, we had a situation where somebody was late in judging. While it totally might not happen again this year, we should be prepared for it.

- Points
Judges receiving points would be cool, but it shouldn't be a number that can sway the results greatly since it really is just effort points. I'm thinking if a "minor" section like Humor (if we have that again) is worth 10 points a week, Judging should be 5 points a week. That way, it COULD make a difference in a close matchup (esp. if judges are judging all five weeks and if a team has multiple people judging), but it won't be the bulk of their points.

Also down for moving to PXR. It looks to be a great site from what I've seen so far.
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Old 03-29-2013, 02:47 PM
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Default Re: WAR XII Discussion and Planning

- How long the WAR should be
I'm kind of worried about activity, to be honest. As a judge last year, activity was pretty bad for my Pokemon Online/Showdown section with one or two weeks with no submissions at all and the rest with 1-3. So, while I'm not a fan of this as a participant, I think it would be more intelligent to have four weeks to be on the safe side.

- How WAR Teams are made and how many should there be
I would personally like for the teams to be made in the same way as the past. I vote against a member limit, though if absolutely necessary, we can implement one later in the process (before the start of the actual WAR). Five to six feels like a good number to accept, though it's a number I would like to be able to change later on if it would be in our best interests, depending on how many teams can get over the minimum member limit/have a reasonable number of members.

- How members join teams
Just let members pick one. Saves trouble, and if need be, we can always ask for members to move around.

- WAR Starting Date
School ends for me late June, and I believe it's the same/similar for most other people. The last day of June (June 30th) is on a Sunday, so that feels like a perfect date to start it, with the week(s) before being used for pre-WAR stuff. I'm thinking of the RP specifically here as a section that would benefit from this.

- Submission and Judging periods
Yeah, the system has worked excellently in the past. I feel that, in the case of a late judging, somebody should be designated to step in and take over to grade things and set a new theme for the week. Ideally, this would be one or two people total across all of the sections. I think last year, we had a situation where somebody was late in judging. While it totally might not happen again this year, we should be prepared for it.

- Points
Judges receiving points would be cool, but it shouldn't be a number that can sway the results greatly since it really is just effort points. I'm thinking if a "minor" section like Humor (if we have that again) is worth 10 points a week, Judging should be 5 points a week. That way, it COULD make a difference in a close matchup (esp. if judges are judging all five weeks and if a team has multiple people judging), but it won't be the bulk of their points. My team last year fell off a cliff in terms of activity. We were still able to finish middle of the pack (it was a top heavy WAR, but still) with a large portion of our points coming from me and Amir judging, and I'm not sure if that's really for the best.

Also down for moving to PXR. It looks to be a great site from what I've seen so far.
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:06 PM
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Default Re: WAR XII Discussion and Planning

Yeah, I just realized PXR was supposed to be kept under the holiday wrapping paper for a little longer. My main point is that relocating the WAR is a potential option and we will likely have a sound and stable place to move it to.

So, in terms of some of the other issues at hand:

WAR LENGTH
Four weeks sounds as a good starting point, which is something we could add more onto if things with activity get more promising. I agree with Nitro, some sections did take a serious dip in activity to the point where submissions ended up being zero. I judged graphic art last year and while that section did actually turn out okay, I noticed these trends. Cutting it down by a week might be just the thing we need.

WAR TEAMS
This depends on what people would prefer.

Option #1 is fewer teams with more members, and Option #2 is more teams with fewer members.

Personally, I am leaning more toward Option #1. I'd rather have maybe three or four teams that have life, activity, and energy behind them as opposed to a lot of little teams that will be dropping like flies as the weeks roll on.

HOW MEMBERS JOIN TEAMS
Again, personally, let people decide on their team. I've seen drafts do ugly things in the past, and I'm not really sure there is a possible third method that could be used.

WAR STARTING DATE
A lot of this depends on the migration situation. If migration does happen, I may advocate for it starting a bit later, such as mid or late July to allow the new hosting location be situated and comfortable with hosting the WAR after all other priorities are met.

SUBMISSION AND JUDGING PERIODS
In terms of judging, I feel this is probably the fairest method:

[Monday - Friday] > Standard submission time
[Saturday] > Judging period begins, submissions can be put in as "last minute" submissions provided the judge hasn't reviewed and posted results yet. But once results are posted, it's too late.
[Sunday] > Pure judging, no submissions allowed. Gives judges an extra day to calculate results and post new themes for the upcoming week when applicable.

If a section hasn't been judged by Sunday night and it rolls into Monday, a WAR Leader should be prepared to intervene and judge that section, even if that WAR Leader took part in it. That judge, however, will lose the opportunity to earn points.

POINTS
Judges need to receive points to keep them motivated to do a good job. Again, I agree with Nitro, the point award should be decent, but not enough to throw off the balance to where a team could win just by judging everything. I feel a fair distribution is a judge should be earning roughly 20% of what they're awarding out each week. A section that awards 5 points each week means the judge should be earning 1 point each week. If 10, then 2 points. We may need to "inflate" the point amounts so there aren't any fractional points given out, such as having sections be worth something like 40 or 50 points each week and just work with higher and easier-to-divide and distribute numbers as opposed to single digits.
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:06 PM
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Default Re: WAR XII Discussion and Planning

Yeah, I just realized PXR was supposed to be kept under the holiday wrapping paper for a little longer. My main point is that relocating the WAR is a potential option and we will likely have a sound and stable place to move it to.

So, in terms of some of the other issues at hand:

WAR LENGTH
Four weeks sounds as a good starting point, which is something we could add more onto if things with activity get more promising. I agree with Nitro, some sections did take a serious dip in activity to the point where submissions ended up being zero. I judged graphic art last year and while that section did actually turn out okay, I noticed these trends. Cutting it down by a week might be just the thing we need.

WAR TEAMS
This depends on what people would prefer.

Option #1 is fewer teams with more members, and Option #2 is more teams with fewer members.

Personally, I am leaning more toward Option #1. I'd rather have maybe three or four teams that have life, activity, and energy behind them as opposed to a lot of little teams that will be dropping like flies as the weeks roll on.

HOW MEMBERS JOIN TEAMS
Again, personally, let people decide on their team. I've seen drafts do ugly things in the past, and I'm not really sure there is a possible third method that could be used.

WAR STARTING DATE
A lot of this depends on the migration situation. If migration does happen, I may advocate for it starting a bit later, such as mid or late July to allow the new hosting location be situated and comfortable with hosting the WAR after all other priorities are met.

SUBMISSION AND JUDGING PERIODS
In terms of judging, I feel this is probably the fairest method:

[Monday - Friday] > Standard submission time
[Saturday] > Judging period begins, submissions can be put in as "last minute" submissions provided the judge hasn't reviewed and posted results yet. But once results are posted, it's too late.
[Sunday] > Pure judging, no submissions allowed. Gives judges an extra day to calculate results and post new themes for the upcoming week when applicable.

If a section hasn't been judged by Sunday night and it rolls into Monday, a WAR Leader should be prepared to intervene and judge that section, even if that WAR Leader took part in it. That judge, however, will lose the opportunity to earn points.

POINTS
Judges need to receive points to keep them motivated to do a good job. Again, I agree with Nitro, the point award should be decent, but not enough to throw off the balance to where a team could win just by judging everything. I feel a fair distribution is a judge should be earning roughly 20% of what they're awarding out each week. A section that awards 5 points each week means the judge should be earning 1 point each week. If 10, then 2 points. We may need to "inflate" the point amounts so there aren't any fractional points given out, such as having sections be worth something like 40 or 50 points each week and just work with higher and easier-to-divide and distribute numbers as opposed to single digits.
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:14 PM
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Default Re: WAR XII Discussion and Planning

Alright, everything below the starting date part, I can't really help out with, seeing as how WAR is new to me. I have seen what it is, given that was the only thing I could do except for stalking the Trivia board.

Teams: Option one is good here, seeing as how PE2K is drastically dropping in activity. However, what would be the limit? I would suggest somewhere between 3-5, probably at least four teams, so it's not one whole team with a huge ton of people.

Picking Teams: Ugh. Drafts. No. But, I do have a possible #3. Alright, say we go with #1 (Which we probably will), and everyone picks a team for WAR XII. However, one member of a team is being disrespectful to the rest of the team for some reason. Picking teams is a privilege, not a right. So, first, we give a warning or whatever to that person about being mean and whatnot. If he/she continues, we relocate them to a new team, so it would be a mixture of options 1 and 2. Again, if they continue, out of WAR. Three strikes you're out system.

Start Date: Okay, honest to god, I remember that we were supposed to keep PXR secret or whatever. But, anyways, yeah, you guys don't know when it's coming out, neither do we, but I expect PXR to launch sometime in late June/July-early August. If PXR comes out before WAR this year, I would say migrate this over to PXR and have this as a last hurray to PE2K for giving us 12+ years of WAR and have it both here and in PXR. If not, I would say start sometime between late May to early June, since most people are out by the third week or so of May.

Yeah, guys. Why. Why ruin the surprise.
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:15 PM
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Default Re: WAR XII Discussion and Planning

Alright, everything below the starting date part, I can't really help out with, seeing as how WAR is new to me. I have seen what it is, given that was the only thing I could do except for stalking the Trivia board.

Teams: Option one is good here, seeing as how PE2K is drastically dropping in activity. However, what would be the limit? I would suggest somewhere between 3-5, probably at least four teams, so it's not one whole team with a huge ton of people.

Picking Teams: Ugh. Drafts. No. But, I do have a possible #3. Alright, say we go with #1 (Which we probably will), and everyone picks a team for WAR XII. However, one member of a team is being disrespectful to the rest of the team for some reason. Picking teams is a privilege, not a right. So, first, we give a warning or whatever to that person about being mean and whatnot. If he/she continues, we relocate them to a new team, so it would be a mixture of options 1 and 2. Again, if they continue, out of WAR. Three strikes you're out system.

Start Date: Okay, honest to god, I remember that we were supposed to keep PXR secret or whatever. But, anyways, yeah, you guys don't know when it's coming out, neither do we, but I expect PXR to launch sometime in late June/July-early August. If PXR comes out before WAR this year, I would say migrate this over to PXR and have this as a last hurray to PE2K for giving us 12+ years of WAR and have it both here and in PXR. If not, I would say start sometime between late May to early June, since most people are out by the third week or so of May.

Yeah, guys. Why. Why ruin the surprise.
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:54 PM
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Default Re: WAR XII Discussion and Planning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neku Sakuraba View Post
Yeah, guys. Why. Why ruin the surprise.
My fault, I didn't know it was still supposed to be under wraps. Anyway, let's try to refrain from mentioning you-know-what again.

Anyway, I think four teams sounds like a good number, but if we're going that route, we need some kind of determination as to how those four teams are decided. There's a few ways we could do that.

Option 1: We make a new thread for people interested in creating and leading a WAR Team. Here, they make a single post as to what their team will be about, why they want to be a leader, and what skills they possess that will make them a good leader. Then, after some time, people vote on teams. The other alternative is WAR Leaders decide on which four submissions should be permitted to make WAR Teams.

Option 2: Teams are created first, but in time, voting occurs that decides which of those four teams will be "finalists" and will go on to participate in the WAR. People on teams who didn't make it are free to switch teams.

Note that both of these options are possible without drafts. I agree that drafts aren't that great of an idea and they've resulted in messes in the past.

As far as start date goes, let's wait on that. I think that might be better rather than trying to guess what's going to happen.
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Old 03-30-2013, 08:04 AM
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Default Re: WAR XII Discussion and Planning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Emolga View Post
Option 1: We make a new thread for people interested in creating and leading a WAR Team. Here, they make a single post as to what their team will be about, why they want to be a leader, and what skills they possess that will make them a good leader. Then, after some time, people vote on teams. The other alternative is WAR Leaders decide on which four submissions should be permitted to make WAR Teams.

Option 2: Teams are created first, but in time, voting occurs that decides which of those four teams will be "finalists" and will go on to participate in the WAR. People on teams who didn't make it are free to switch teams.
I prefer Option 2. It's worked very well in the past. Option 1 seems kind of iffy, since imo a lot of what that intro post would be about would be kind of BS-y, with no offense to anyone. In my history in WAR, I've never found leadership qualities to be that important - the WAR teams I participated in (Team Trainer, Team Aqua, Team Octopus Babies, my own Team .) didn't really need much from leadership qualities and the like. The leader was just someone willing to accept submissions and keep the team lists/etc. organized. The only active interaction I had with my leaders would be in the team thread, but in many/all cases, that was just a casual conversation.

Team success basically revolves around all of the members chipping in, with leadership and things like that not playing a very active role. Maybe the only exception to that would be the RP section, but while the RP section is one of the more important sections in WAR (if not the most standout section), I don't believe in going Option 1 purely for the sake of the RP section, particularly since some leaders (possibly myself, for example) might not even want to be in the RP.

Maybe other people will view things differently and/or have had a different experience, but my experience is that the things that make a good leader mostly don't apply in WAR. Option 2, meanwhile, is tried and tested, and doesn't come with much downsides imo beyond having to change teams if one gets shut down - perfectly reasonable.

Also, I am down with four teams. However, as I said earlier, I would like to be able to change that number later on (either more teams or less teams) if it would be in our best interests. I should also add, it would be easier to make that decision if we decided which teams would be in after teams were formed (Option 2).
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Old 03-30-2013, 05:03 PM
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Default Re: WAR XII Discussion and Planning

I like all the ideas presented so far, even with all the double posts being caused by Quick Reply. I'd just like to suggest that a ceiling be implemented like in a couple of past wars. Don't want one huge team getting popular and it being like 20 vs 6 vs 4 vs 5 or something, you know?

And I'm partial to moving to Harry's site, but we should finish preparations here since it's all started already. Otherwise posts would need to be migrated or it would become disconnected discussion.
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Old 04-01-2013, 08:56 PM
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Default Re: WAR XII Discussion and Planning

Alright, we'll go with Option 2.

Also, sorry to be a killjoy here, but I think we need to make sure we do away with the "pure nonsense" teams like Octopus Babies and so on. I know, some people think it's cute and funny, but that kind of stuff is better saved for a parody WAR.

Yeah, you could legally make a team like "Pooping Seagulls," "Apocalypse Dung Beetles," and "Alien Butt Monkeys" that comply with all the rules, but think about what you're doing to the WAR's image when you do stuff like that. It's okay to clown around, act like a fool, and not take the WAR seriously when the WAR is in parody mode, but when it's not, try to keep things real. Otherwise, the other teams are not sure what to do, especially in the RP itself. If the RP was supposed to be like Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings, "Pooping Seagulls" is like trying to force Monty Python and the Holy Grail down on people when they were expecting something more serious. If you have all the teams with goofy names and nonsense goals, sure, then it works and can be pretty loony, funny, and enjoyable if done right and everyone's in the mindset to do it, but when some are and some aren't, you've got a confused hybrid of the two that doesn't know what to do with itself.

Since the general preference is to keep the WAR more serious, level-headed, and realistic, let's stick with that approach and not try to deviate from it.
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