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Fourth Generation Discuss the fourth generation Pokemon games: Diamond, Pearl, Platinum, HeartGold and SoulSilver.


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  #1  
Old 01-28-2008, 04:29 AM
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Question Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

I was just reading the forums and I noticed that under one of Sticky Threads in Pokebattle forum that there are rules against putting more than 1 pokemon asleep, no double teaming or minimizing (basically, raising evasion), and no 2 of the same pokemon...

So I was wondering, why are these rules in place? Seems to take out alot out of the Pokemon battle. Why are we allowed to say.. pass on stat ups and use poison or paralysis type attacks or lower attacks etc etc... but Sleep and Raising Evasiveness is not allowed?

thanks,

ray
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:32 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StellarRay View Post
I was just reading the forums and I noticed that under one of Sticky Threads in Pokebattle forum that there are rules against putting more than 1 pokemon asleep, no double teaming or minimizing (basically, raising evasion), and no 2 of the same pokemon...

So I was wondering, why are these rules in place? Seems to take out alot out of the Pokemon battle. Why are we allowed to say.. pass on stat ups and use poison or paralysis type attacks or lower attacks etc etc... but Sleep and Raising Evasiveness is not allowed?

thanks,

ray
Sleep is allowed. Putting more than one Pokemon to sleep isn't. That's really not fair.

DT/Minimize is not allowed, because that makes the game a game of luck, rather than skill. Thats not what we want our battles to be based on.
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  #3  
Old 01-28-2008, 04:32 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StellarRay View Post
I was just reading the forums and I noticed that under one of Sticky Threads in Pokebattle forum that there are rules against putting more than 1 pokemon asleep, no double teaming or minimizing (basically, raising evasion), and no 2 of the same pokemon...

So I was wondering, why are these rules in place? Seems to take out alot out of the Pokemon battle. Why are we allowed to say.. pass on stat ups and use poison or paralysis type attacks or lower attacks etc etc... but Sleep and Raising Evasiveness is not allowed?

thanks,

ray
because what if some1 had a pokemon and put all their opponents to sleep that wouldn't be fun because the person would just have to sit there or if some1 brings in a team of smeargles or Arceus or something else that wouldn't be fun
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  #4  
Old 01-28-2008, 04:34 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

Yeah you can still use sleep but you can only put one Pokemon to sleep. Also to many people complain that Double Team makes the game more luck based. I don't mind a Double Team battle once in a while but I am glad it is not part of the standard metagame.
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  #5  
Old 01-28-2008, 04:45 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

Well at first I didn't like the Evasion Clause but now I see why. if you take a poke and raise its evasion all the way up and then bp it, its unstoppable unless you bring out a DTer and then it will into a 2 hour miss out. sleep i love. 2 of the same poke in a team is i think more of a warning than anything because if you six garchomps in your team is cool, but ice shard weavile pwns. I still don't get the haxed clause but sometimes its better to join than to fight
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  #6  
Old 01-28-2008, 05:08 AM
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Question Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

But aren't there moves to raise Accuracy and also lower Evasivness?? It's not like raising Evasiveness is broken.

I would think that the game lacks strategy and skill if you're assuming that all your attacks hit as long as you use 100 ACC moves. A simple, I hit you, you hit me, mix in a switch-in to take a hit (a counter) every now and then. I wouldn't think it's luck if a trainer strategically used up a Move Slot on their Pokemon (25% of their total available move slots) to counter those 1 hit KO sweepers.

All I'm saying is, it seems that by adding these rules you're kinda limitting the strategies in the game to simply tankers, healers, sweepers... basically all the stuff already posted.

I don't know, I am new afterall. I'm sure someone will quote that soon enough.

Also, don't the Ghost pokemon tend to have alot of attacks that only work on sleeping opponenents? So if I put someone to sleep.. then they switch out.. do I then have to withdraw my ghost pokemon basically and wait till they use that pokemon again??

And yeah, I thought that having more than 1 of the same pokemon would be a weakness and that maybe it's a guideline/warning to trainers.. but when you post it as a rule that's completely different. I can easily see some strats using more than 1 of the same (ie most ppl here seem to be in the mentality that everyone has 1-2 sweepers, tanker, bp, etc.. it'd be interesting to mix that stereotype up).

So basically, when it comes down to it.. is Sleep and Double Team/Minimized and Multiple of the same pokemon prohibited basically because there's no counter? Like how Psych pokemon use to be godly in 1st gen Pokemon. Because I really don't think you should just say that it's luck-based...
  #7  
Old 01-28-2008, 05:31 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

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Originally Posted by StellarRay View Post
But aren't there moves to raise Accuracy and also lower Evasivness?? It's not like raising Evasiveness is broken.

I would think that the game lacks strategy and skill if you're assuming that all your attacks hit as long as you use 100 ACC moves. A simple, I hit you, you hit me, mix in a switch-in to take a hit (a counter) every now and then. I wouldn't think it's luck if a trainer strategically used up a Move Slot on their Pokemon (25% of their total available move slots) to counter those 1 hit KO sweepers.

All I'm saying is, it seems that by adding these rules you're kinda limitting the strategies in the game to simply tankers, healers, sweepers... basically all the stuff already posted.

I don't know, I am new afterall. I'm sure someone will quote that soon enough.

Also, don't the Ghost pokemon tend to have alot of attacks that only work on sleeping opponenents? So if I put someone to sleep.. then they switch out.. do I then have to withdraw my ghost pokemon basically and wait till they use that pokemon again??

And yeah, I thought that having more than 1 of the same pokemon would be a weakness and that maybe it's a guideline/warning to trainers.. but when you post it as a rule that's completely different. I can easily see some strats using more than 1 of the same (ie most ppl here seem to be in the mentality that everyone has 1-2 sweepers, tanker, bp, etc.. it'd be interesting to mix that stereotype up).

So basically, when it comes down to it.. is Sleep and Double Team/Minimized and Multiple of the same pokemon prohibited basically because there's no counter? Like how Psych pokemon use to be godly in 1st gen Pokemon. Because I really don't think you should just say that it's luck-based...
Man thats what it kinda of is having these rules I completely agree with you on that but I let someone else tell you why they are good
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  #8  
Old 01-28-2008, 05:37 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

You think adding Double Team will diversify the metagame?

Eh, no. Sorry. The only reliable methods of countering this are Aerial Ace, Magical Leaf, Aura Sphere, Faint Attack and Yawn. The day the Evasion Clause is taken down is the day basically every mon that carries an attacking move will have to be packing one of those moves or fail. It'll also be the end of any move with lower than 85 accuracy. Moves like Focus Blast and Hypnosis completely cease to exist. :[

As for Sleep Clause, I have one word for you -- Breloom. :[
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Last edited by Fire Away; 01-28-2008 at 05:40 AM.
  #9  
Old 01-28-2008, 06:34 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

Personally, I feel adding DT will give a lot more Pokemon that are UU a fighting chance at least. Not to mention those in the NU bracket as well. There are always around it I believe. WW, Roar, Haze. not to mention those attacks that never miss. Can't forget about Wide Lens to increase accuracy. You also have to keep in mind, it does take time to set up DT as well. You can still make a Pokemon Faint even if it has 1 or 2 under it's belt. Once it hit's three, that can get a tad annoying. On top of that, not every pokemon is going to be carrying DT, that would be just plain idiotic. As for the Sleep Clause, aren't we forgetting Insomnia? Not to mention Sleep talkers or those Pokemon who abuse the Toxic and Flame orbs.

There are always ways around any given problem. It's just people like the way the things are set up for now because they feel it's more fair and keeps the game skill based. My opinion about it is that there is still more to utilizing the things they exclude. Even though something seems cheap, the bottom line is that it gets you the win. Most people would want to play to win, so they'd gladly abuse those things as much as they possibly could. So wouldn't you in turn try to find something to counter them? Thus equalizing the game again.

These are from an article posted by a user on SRK. I do feel the apply to the question at hand as well. I've only taken 3 key parts from the article itself. If you wish to read it all visit the link found here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponder
The precise contours of "cheap" are pretty mysterious. Far be it from me to actually be able to penetrate fully the dark workings of the mind of a scrub, but in an attempt to get a better feel for what they’re talking about here (if anything), I’ll try and analyze some apparent commonalities between the wide variety of things called "cheap". Something that is cheap:

1) Wins. Ever notice that no one who just loses all the time ever gets their style called "cheap" (or "dishonorable") no matter what they’re doing? I start with this because it helps to underscore the generally whiny, name-calling nature of the complaint. No matter how you play, no one seems to care much... unless you’re winning. If you’re not threatening their (sorry) dominance at the machine, the scrub doesn’t care what the hell you’re doing. It’s only when you’re doing something they can’t beat that he bothers to drop phrases like "cheap". How can an innocent scrub tell when he’s been scandalized by the dreaded "cheap" play? The easiest way to recognize cheapness is not by looking for certain characteristics to the style of play (that can be confusing, and seems downright impossible since what’s "cheap" seems to change all the time!). No- just wait until you’re losing a lot. Then, rather than experience the fear that you might have to figure something difficult out, you can rest assured that the reason you were losing was because you were the victim of "cheap" tactics! The advice to aspiring scrubs here should be clear: If you want to ensure that you never accidentally play "cheap" (the precise definition is danged tricky!), just don’t win too much. Everyone knows that not winning too much is a proud tradition among all "honorable" players.

2) "Cheap" tactics violate the sanctity of "blocking". All scrubs seem to feel that blocking should be some sort of unimpeachable stronghold- a scrub "fortress of solitude". Apparently the thinking is "When I'm blocking, no one should be able to hurt me, no matter what!". Where this idea came from is anyone's guess. Ever hear of blocking in Space Invaders? Could Pac-Man block? Blocked any quad-damage railgun shots lately? No. But the scrub still feels somehow especially violated when he's hunkered down, jamming the stick into block, and something still disappears off his lifebar. "What the hell! I was BLOCKING!"

3) "Cheap" tactics kill with minimal effort. In this respect, they’re difficult to distinguish from just plain good tactics, which are aimed at making you efficient, effective winners. Good players play to win- they’re about winning, not whining. But scrubs become edgy and irritable when they’re killed really easily. They know that killing a serious player should be at least a little bit hard, even if he is a scrub. This resistance to extreme efficiency is well-founded, in some respects. A tactic is great when it kills efficiently, but can justifiably be called cheap when it kills too efficiently.
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Old 01-28-2008, 06:51 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

^Whirlwind and Roar can miss. :[

I've read many articles on playing to win and I agree completely with all of them. I didn't read all of that article, mostly because I know what it's going to say in the first place. :P

IMO, though, applying articles like that to a game like Pokemon isn't as effective in the way that it is for fighting games and similar multiplayer genres.

There's a difference between 'equalizing' the metagame as you put it and overcentralizing it. Double Team being reintroduced to the metagame suddenly makes Baton Pass chains not only ten times more common, but almost unstoppable. On top of being able to boost almost every stat, they're now able to boost Evasion. Setting up 6 DTs is a lot easier when you've Mean Looked a target and Encored them. So now you have possible defensive boosts on top of the fact that your opponent will be struggling to hit you. Stack this on top of a boosted attack stat, pass this to Medicham and the metagame literally becomes dominated by a single team.

As a result, everyone will begin carrying Yawn, Haze, Magical Leaf, Aerial Ace and Aura Sphere, which a whopping two non-uber Pokemon get. A smart player will abuse Taunt to prevent you from (P)Hazing them in the first place.
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Last edited by Fire Away; 01-28-2008 at 07:04 AM.
  #11  
Old 01-28-2008, 07:08 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

Can't Taunt be used in the same sense to stop that said Pokemon from DTing and BP? It does equalize itself over the long run because more and more counters will be will be thought up to prevent all this. Also, I believe the sleep and evasion clauses do equalize each other out. One can simply beat the other to the punch first. Pokemon is primarily about countering a specific tactic / Pokemon itself. Pretty much, who ever can get off their tactic first essentially wins a match. Then again, there are always ways to break a persons dominance in a match as well, depending on various circumstances and scenarios.
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Old 01-28-2008, 07:16 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

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Can't Taunt be used in the same sense to stop that said Pokemon from DTing and BP? It does equalize itself over the long run because more and more counters will be will be thought up to prevent all this. Also, I believe the sleep and evasion clauses do equalize each other out. One can simply beat the other to the punch first. Pokemon is primarily about countering a specific tactic / Pokemon itself. Pretty much, who ever can get off their tactic first essentially wins a match. Then again, there are always ways to break a persons dominance in a match as well, depending on various circumstances and scenarios.
What good are counters in the first place if they can't even hit their opponent? If your opponent has two DTs in, your chances of hitting them with a Taunt before they can Taunt you have decreased a lot.

The perfect accuracy moves are relatively weak without STAB (and even with it get a somewhat unimpressive 90 BP). Aura Sphere is the exception, but it's availability hurts its usage.

IMO the best counters for DT are Yawn and Haze. Both of these moves don't have a huge list of mons that learn them, and many of the Pokemon that do aren't especially good outside of carrying them for the sole purpose of getting rid of stat-uppers. What would you do with that Seviper after he's Hazed your opponent? Die? :/
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Old 01-28-2008, 07:34 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

Crobat > Seviper Not only can it match Jolts speed, it also poses a great problem for that speedy Jask as well. Not to mention the fact it gets a a STAB AA, can learn U-Turn, and Mean Look!? Throw Focus Sash on it and we might just have a legit counter! Even Hynposis is still a viable option not to mention that lovely move called Taunt! Sure, Bat may die but at least you put a stop to their combo before they had a chance to even set up. Thus making the first turn a coin toss!

As of right now, there may not be many known tactics to stop it just yet, but if you let people play around with it for a while, I'm more than positive people will find more ways to combat it. It really is just a matter of time.
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Old 01-28-2008, 07:50 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

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Crobat > Seviper Not only can it match Jolts speed, it also poses a great problem for that speedy Jask as well. Not to mention the fact it gets a a STAB AA, can learn U-Turn, and Mean Look!? Throw Focus Sash on it and we might just have a legit counter! Even Hynposis is still a viable option not to mention that lovely move called Taunt! Sure, Bat may die but at least you put a stop to their combo before they had a chance to even set up. Thus making the first turn a coin toss!

As of right now, there may not be many known tactics to stop it just yet, but if you let people play around with it for a while, I'm more than positive people will find more ways to combat it. It really is just a matter of time.
The fact that there's only one surefire counter you can name off the top of your head proves how imbalanced it is. Also, the fact that countering a Double Teaming Jolteon comes down to a 'coin toss' leaves me hesistant to call it a counter anyways.

Sure, if you let a move in the metagame for a while, people will counter it. The thing is, you're underestimating how abusable the evasion stat can be. The fact that Brightpowder Sand Veil Garchomp can rape teams by abusing his trait and item shows how easily it can tip the scales. Double Team becoming available means that everyone would use and abuse this tactic endlessly, but most every team will be forced to carry Specs Lucario and at least a Yawn-er or two. Not because they want to, but because they have to keep up with the metagame.

If a single move can cause that kind of effect, it's overcentralizing the metagame. :/
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  #15  
Old 01-28-2008, 08:19 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

I also forgot to mention those Pokemon who have the ability to use moves that can strike first. Even though the moves might be weak, they can and will work if they are leading the team. Besides, only time I see Chomp doing that is if another poke has set up Sandstorm. Sure it can do quite the lot of damage in Doubles, but still risky to set up. Will it be worth it once set up!? YEAH! Of course it will! Though there still are counters! I say Donphan has a darn good chance of spelling an end to that chomp though. Actually, Donphan is an actually good counter for the BP DT. It will strike that jask first. and even if Jolt gets that one DT under it's belt, considering it's not carrying FS, it will be put to an end by an EQ. It really all comes down to how the team is set up.

It's not going to be a game breaking tactic, very effective yes, but not so much the entire game is going to be centered around it. It's no different than most other tactics out there. All of them require set ups. The same thing could almost be said about those who set up Spikes and Stealth rock. How many counters do you have out there for them? How many Pokemon can learn Rapid Spin? It's just a matter how how you can diffuse the situation before it can arise.
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